Offseason Targets

[BigHurt3515]

2 hours ago, iWiN4PreP said:

We bloody need a rfer who is a complete player (can play defense and offense)... not these old guys who cant Play adequate defense.

 

go big or go home... 

no to brantly choo mazara 

We need pitching more. Our lineup is good enough with Vaughn in there to hide Engel, Hazard, Choo, etc

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, iWiN4PreP said:

We bloody need a rfer who is a complete player (can play defense and offense)... not these old guys who cant Play adequate defense.

 

go big or go home... 

no to brantly choo mazara 

I said this last offseason, and I'll say this now:

 

Yasiel Puig.

He's had a wrc+ of 130 vs. RHP over the course of his career. [Yes, go ahead and check his career splits.]

He's had a positive DRS in most seasons, which suggests that he's an adequate fielder.

His acquisition cost won't include squandering the dwindling supply of tradeable assets, or surrendering compensatory picks.

His salary demands aren't going to prevent adding other pieces in this offseason, at 2021's trade deadline, at next season's offseason, or 2022's trade deadline.

He's only going to be 30, which means he should have enough tread on the tire to allow Colas or Cespedes or Adolfo or other youngsters to arrive here.

He has been supported by both Abreu and Grandal; at 30 years old, he's likely to be more mature than he was as a younger man.

He has been active in his community through his charitable foundation, moreso than most players.

He's played in this division, and should now have some familiarity with the ballparks in it.

He has players in this roster with whom he has familiarity, and the manager, if he has a strength, is to keep a clubhouse together.

He likely has been humbled by being left out this season, and is highly likely to be hungry to prove himself; a contract with the proper incentives/disincentives can easily keep him in line, for those of you who are pearl-clutching pants-wetters.

 

I don't think he'll ever be the 5.5 fWAR stud we thought he was a few years ago. But, I think his fWAR floor is likely ~1.5 fWAR, with a ceiling of perhaps ~3fWAR. BUT, he should come at a price point that will be less than Mazara in arb, AND at a point that won't kill the budget.

 

As part of an overall strategy to compete in 2021 through 2024, while not squandering dwindling resources of trade assets or salary structure space, go sign him for a reasonable contract. I'm interested in having multiple opportunities to win, which means trying to add talent that may provide surplus value [i.e. a player who might outperform his contract]. I'm not interested in this club blowing their entire prospect wad, or their entire salary structure in ONE OFFSEASON, which could prevent future additions over the course of this competitive window. IOW, I don't care about "winning the offseason" by adding your wet dream in trade or FA this offseason. YMMV.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[iWiN4PreP]

Honestly, puig would be fine by me...

decent enough defense and offense and age isn’t horrid

also woukd cost very little

 

my approval ?

[southsider2k5]

NO one in all of baseball was willing to touch Puig last year, including every single general manager that people drool over.  That should tell you something about where he is held in baseball.

[Two-Gun Pete]

Is that actually true? The Athletic reported that Puig was going to be signed by Atlanta, but he tested positive for COVID.

 

Regardless, if you're so adamantly against Puig, find us another actual RFer:

1. with a career wrc+ vs RHP of 130 [Better than Abreu, Grandal, Encarnacion, Mazara, as well as Brantley and Pederson], AND

2. mostly- positive DRS at RF, AND

3. not horribly injury-prone, AND

4. not ancient/whose career is on fumes due to Father Time taking away his abilities, AND

5. at a salary price point that will also enable this team to add enough SP depth to push Cease [and his horrifying BB/9 of 5.25] down to Charlotte, AND

6. not cost us trade assets for future acquisitions?

Edited October 11, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[Timmy U]

It will be interesting to see what payrolls look like next year.  I saw an article about Cleveland and they will be slashing payroll.  No more Santana, Lindor gone, Hand won't be resigned, they're looking to trade Carlos Carrasco... I now imagine the Sox non-tender everyone they can Rodon, Mazarra, maybe even decline the option on Leury and try to pick through the giant cutout bin that will be this offseason.  I think we have no idea who will be available outright or in salary dumps this offseason.  My question is "Will the Sox be aggressive? Or are they one of the teams looking to dump payroll?" 

Could be a huge opportunity for teams like Boston, who are getting an influx of Billy Beane cash, or the Mets, who figure to up their payroll now that they have actual ownership.  I could also see the Phillies being big spenders, given their huge TV deal. 

Point is, I think it's too early to settle for Puig or Pederson.  There may be some very solid players out there this winter.

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Is that actually true? The Athletic reported that Puig was going to be signed by Atlanta, but he tested positive for COVID.

 

Regardless, if you're so adamantly against Puig, find us another actual RFer:

1. with a career wrc+ vs RHP of 130 [Better than Abreu, Grandal, Encarnacion, Mazara, as well as Brantley and Pederson], AND

2. mostly- positive DRS at RF, AND

3. not horribly injury-prone, AND

4. not ancient/whose career is on fumes due to Father Time taking away his abilities, AND

5. at a salary price point that will also enable this team to add enough SP depth to push Cease [and his horrifying BB/9 of 5.25] down to Charlotte, AND

6. not cost us trade assets for future acquisitions?

It doesn't matter what I am for, but even if you take the Atlanta thing as face value, despite all of the numbers,  no one put him on a major league roster last year. That should be telling. 

[Rey21]

On 10/9/2020 at 10:39 PM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You win with pitching. I'm all for trading to make the team better but you don't give up years unless you get years in return. Just because the ultra rich, always in contention, alway in perpetual sunshine Dodgers can sign a guy they traded for doesn't mean the Sox can duplicate that because they can't.  Trades have to be smart.

Chicago is not bathed in sunshine year round. The payroll isn't $250M  and we aren't in contention year in and year out. Dodgers are an elite franchise. The Sox can't even beat out Cleveland, Minnesota, KC, or Detroit for division titles. Giving up players when they are still cheap unless you get back other players who are still cheap is pretty much the only way the Sox can operate. It's a lovely fantasy though.

If you want to talk about Yelich I prefer to look , not at the extension, but at the trade that landed him in Milwaukee . The Brewers didn't trade for a guy with one year left. They traded for a guy with 5 years left. They gave up a bunch of prospects for a guy on the rise who then became one of the best in baseball. That's how you do it. I can accept comparing the Sox to the Brewers not to the Dodgers.

Maybe I’m in the minority but I would believe while your team is in contention and fixing a huge position of need with a top 5-10 player at that position in baseball would be a smart move. I understand the concern over the contract/years left but the Sox wouldn’t be the first team to make such a move and Conforto for Cease would be a risk I’m gladly willing to take.
 

Unfortunately the Sox don’t have the scouting/player development that the Rays do, don’t spend money like the Dodgers, and don’t have the prospect capital like the Padres, or aren’t as aggressive as let’s say the Blue Jays/Braves/Phillies so moves like these are what they’re left with. They’re gonna have to make tough decisions to round out their roster. 
 

In regards to pitching wins, of course it does until you don’t hit (Cubs, Sox, Reds, Indians). 

[Two-Gun Pete]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It doesn't matter what I am for, but even if you take the Atlanta thing as face value, despite all of the numbers,  no one put him on a major league roster last year. That should be telling. 

That wasn't what you argued.

 

You argued, "NO one in all of baseball was willing to touch Puig last year, including every single general manager that people drool over." 

I think based on what The Athletic, and Forbes, and Atlanta Business Chronicle, and others had reported, that your statement absolutely was not true. So, if you don't like Puig [which certainly, many don't], then suggest another potential addition that also provides some or most of the 6 factual points I mentioned above.

 

I don't think Puig is a star, but I also don't think he's an arch-criminal. I think he provides potential surplus value relative to his contract, plus the freedom to make other additions in this offseason/next trade deadline/next offseason, without much in terms of acquisition cost. 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

That wasn't what you argued.

 

You argued, "NO one in all of baseball was willing to touch Puig last year, including every single general manager that people drool over." 

I think based on what The Athletic, and Forbes, and Atlanta Business Chronicle, and others had reported, that your statement absolutely was not true. So, if you don't like Puig [which certainly, many don't], then suggest another potential addition that also provides some or most of the 6 factual points I mentioned above.

 

I don't think Puig is a star, but I also don't think he's an arch-criminal. I think he provides potential surplus value relative to his contract, plus the freedom to make other additions in this offseason/next trade deadline/next offseason, without much in terms of acquisition cost. 

Again, he didn't play the entire season last year.  No one touched him during free agency through spring training.  Atlanta did try to offer him something, but pulled it due to covid supposedly, though if they really believed in him, why didn't they just wait it out?

The guy has burned his reputation to the ground when MLB essentially won't touch him.

[Two-Gun Pete]

21 minutes ago, Rey21 said:

I understand the concern over the contract/years left but the Sox wouldn’t be the first team to make such a move and Conforto for Cease would be a risk I’m gladly willing to take.

Dude, you're a one-note symphony. Almost all of your posts since you joined a few weeks ago have been variations of, "please, please, please let's get Conforto, because he's a golden god!"

Fine, I'll play along. But after this, feel free to post about anything else, if you're actually a White Sox fan, and not a Conforto family member.:

1. You'd have to assume that the Mets, with their new owner, and all his money won't want to compete.

2. You'd have to assume that the Mets, who drafted the man, will be willing to let him go.

Do we know if either are true? I'd actually read the opposite: That the Mets' new ownership wants to compete, and that includes keeping Conforto.

 

Once you get past that, what's the acquisition cost/FUTURE opportunity cost losses?

You've suggested Cease-for-Conforto ad nauseum. But, given his ties to the org, the new ownership, and the quality of his play, I would expect it to be Cease ++ for Conforto. In other words, you'd be depreciating future trade assets for future acquisitions to get one guy.

 

Once you get past that, what will it take to retain him?

Take it or leave it, but Spotrac has his market value as $25.4MM/year, or $178MM/7 years. Whether or not this is accurate, you look up at the top of the page, and recognize that his agent is Scott Boras. Which means he probably isn't coming at a discount, and Boras will make every attempt to get SOMEONE to pay every last nickel in market value to Conforto.

Even if Spotrac's assessment isn't true, the owner, Jerry Reinsdorf, already complained about financial losses while others were losing their jobs, businesses, or their lives. He also complained about 2021 in that same article. [Maybe you didn't know that, as a non-White Sox fan, I dunno.] 

Long story short, there will be some budgetary constraints that this org will observe, going forward. Finding a spare $25.4MM, while trying to add SP depth, retain or sign a closer, and offer Lucas Giolito an extension is a quixotic fool's errand.

 

We look forward to all your non-Conforto-related posts during your tenure here. Or, for you to address the above. Its totally up to you.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[Two-Gun Pete]

33 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Again, he didn't play the entire season last year.  No one touched him during free agency through spring training.  Atlanta did try to offer him something, but pulled it due to covid supposedly, though if they really believed in him, why didn't they just wait it out?

The guy has burned his reputation to the ground when MLB essentially won't touch him.

Look, you previously posted "no one would touch him," which actually isn't true, because Atlanta did want him. And that's neither here nor there. 

 

Find us another RF candidate that provides some or all of the 6 factual points I'd mentioned, if you're so adamantly against Puig. I'm honestly open-minded about potential signees, and agnostic about Puig at the end of the day. But if it'll be another RFer, I also want to have enough SP depth, so that RR doesn't have to do much BP shuffling every 2 games out of 5, because Cease and Lopez are walking the bags full every one of their starts.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Look, you previously posted "no one would touch him," which actually isn't true, because Atlanta did want him. And that's neither here nor there. 

 

Find us another RF candidate that provides some or all of the 6 factual points I'd mentioned, if you're so adamantly against Puig. I'm honestly open-minded about potential signees, and agnostic about Puig at the end of the day. But if it'll be another RFer, I also want to have enough SP depth, so that RR doesn't have to do much BP shuffling every 2 games out of 5, because Cease and Lopez are walking the bags full every one of their starts.

Just not enough to sign him over the winter or wait for him to get over covid.

[Nokona]

Anyone interested in Marwin or Kike?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I like how this thread is going on like it will be business as usual next year. Y'all are in for a huge shock. McCann gone, Colome gone, Mazara, Rodon, Leury , Sanchez and anyone I'm missing who is questionable for non tendering will be m non tendered and it will pretty much be that way for every team. Free Agent signings ? Good luck with that. Owners are going to flood the market with players and let them sit there a long  long time.

Edited October 12, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[thxfrthmmrs]

I also expect there will be a healthy number of 1 year deals taken this off-season, which would work well for the Sox in the grand scheme of things.

[Bob Sacamano]

I think the guys at the top of the free agent list like Bauer will get multi year deals and paid (yeah I'm not buying him only signing one year deals until I see it announced). A guy like Stroman I can see taking a one year deal as he sat out last year. I think he is more likely personally.

[Jose Abreu]

I am shocked that Reinsdorf is willing to let go of Renteria (who still had another year on his contract) and pay top dollar for a Hinch/Cora given the pandemic and his complaints about his finances. Today's news has made me much more optimistic about the Sox free agent spending.

[Orlando]

On 10/9/2020 at 2:01 PM, macsandz said:

Steve's opinions very rarely directly reflect the FO plans. It's not that he's always incorrect, just that he's not in the know as much as some assume.  

This was proven wrong today again. 

[macsandz]

17 minutes ago, Orlando said:

This was proven wrong today again. 

Uh yeah the national media, team media and entire Sox fanbase called Renteria into question as it was clear he exposed this season as in over his head.

If you wanna believe the TV analyst is the front office mouthpiece then I'm not gonna stop you.  

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said:

I am shocked that Reinsdorf is willing to let go of Renteria (who still had another year on his contract) and pay top dollar for a Hinch/Cora given the pandemic and his complaints about his finances. Today's news has made me much more optimistic about the Sox free agent spending.

100% agree

[Dominikk85]

Does RR and Cooper getting fired mean the Sox spend this winter? Paying out RR and getting a star manager like hinch will at least cost 4-5 mil next year and it makes no sense to spend that money and then go into the season with Engel in right, no 4th and 5th starter and no closer. 

Hahn puts pressure on himself with the firing on Ricky, he basically now is forced to win 90+ next year after a 95 win pace this year. 

That means he definitely needs to make some moves and improve the weaknesses to hold the level as some regression will come. 

Now obviously with the covid situation I don't expect a 150 mil signing but definitely spend like 20-30mil on improvements for next year (with EE coming off the books). 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Dominikk85

[Orlando]

1 hour ago, macsandz said:

Uh yeah the national media, team media and entire Sox fanbase called Renteria into question as it was clear he exposed this season as in over his head.

If you wanna believe the TV analyst is the front office mouthpiece then I'm not gonna stop you.  

I mean it’s not as crazy as believing a random, faceless dude on a message board but I’m not going to stop people from believing you.

[YourWhatHurts]

1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said:

Does RR and Cooper getting fired mean the Sox spend this winter? Paying out RR and getting a star manager like hinch will at least cost 4-5 mil next year and it makes no sense to spend that money and then go into the season with Engel in right, no 4th and 5th starter and no closer. 

Hahn puts pressure on himself with the firing on Ricky, he basically now is forced to win 90+ next year after a 95 win pace this year. 

That means he definitely needs to make some moves and improve the weaknesses to hold the level as some regression will come. 

Now obviously with the covid situation I don't expect a 150 mil signing but definitely spend like 20-30mil on improvements for next year (with EE coming off the books). 

OTOH you could easily interpret these moves as those designed to try to extract more production/improvement out of the already-existing players.

I'm also of the opinion that we're pretty good even with nothing done.  Some of the worst possible moves this franchise could make right now is trading the wrong prospects and/or young MLBers before they finish developing.  I'm not sure we're going to be looking at another Tatis-level fuckup but we might have a few guys who could go Semien/Bassitt on us easily, and some of our SPs could really come back to haunt us in a way we haven't seen in a very long time (too long for me to even know about).

I think if the Sox want to keep last year's payroll they can still get a lot better without making trades.  If they want to stick at last year's payroll plus 20-30 million then they can get way better without even making any trades.

Additionally we might want to bring in a new pair of eyes or 2 specifically before deciding on Carlos Rodon's future.  If he can find his control, a LHP with a devastating change and slider throwing 96-98 as a closer is an absolute weapon, and probably $3M or so cheaper than were already paying Colome.  We will also have some players on the bubble like maybe Ruiz etc. and Reynaldo especially who we want a couple fresh pairs of eyes to take a deep look at before we decide we are definitely going to hand their roster spots to someone else.  

These moves could really be all about keeping things in house.

Edited October 12, 2020 by YourWhatHurts

[YourWhatHurts]

I've actually been thinking a lot lately about the potential of Rodon as a closer, if the control came.

I really like the idea of sending Crochet to stretch out in the minors as a starter, while both Bummer and Heuer are like bullpen Manbearpigs as half closer, half vulture, and half mid-game rally killer, instead of either being a straight closer.  I actually think that if you have a nasty 3-headed monster, the least terrible / frightening head of that monster should be the one who gets to start most appearances with a clean inning / nobody on base.