Offseason Targets

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, Quin said:

Why are you like this?

Because the 1st time only SS2k5 took the bait when he mentioned Gaedel . Some people would rather make outlandish statements for their shock value so they can become a big fish in a small pond like Soxtalk for kicks ?

[thxfrthmmrs]

10 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Because if he doesn't show some power the base hits will stop. The OF will play shallow and they'll take away the singles. 

We’re not in the 1950s where you no intel on rookies until you play them. Everyone knew Madrigal had no power and there are statcast information on players from minor league season as well. He hit .340 with a bad shoulder. People hate on Madrigal so much that they discredit his true hitting ability, it’s getting out of control at this point. He’s not going to be a star, but a safe pick 2-4 WAR every season.

[maloney.adam]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Sox fans tend to do that. We all have opinions. What exactly has he posted that he needs to be credible about ? Certainly not these two. One states the obvious with a pretended knowledge of what the other 29 teams are doing. The 2nd one is pure opinion.

There's enough baseball talk on the internet that could keep you reading 24/7 . Basically you maybe read the 25 best twitters resources and some other websites and voila, if you have any memory at all or bookmarks your info you become instant Sox expert without having to name your resources.

I can see your point. Not Steve Cishek posted this tweet from PortillosHamburger on his account and commented on it. It’s obvious that he just reads what he sees and tweets it. He’s got to be someone from this board. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam

[fathom]

7 minutes ago, maloney.adam said:

I can see your point. Not Steve Cishek posted this tweet from PortillosHamburger on his account and commented on it. It’s obvious that he just reads what he sees and tweets it. He’s got to be someone from this board. 

NotCishek posted last offseason that Madrigal for Gallen was a possible move 

[Orlando]

Who the heck is this Portillos guy? He looks to have gotten the Bummer extension. 

[Orlando]

Is this another White Sox insider legend?!

[smellysox]

8 minutes ago, Orlando said:

Is this another White Sox insider legend?!

You had me at Portillo's hamburgers. 

[Orlando]

 

Saving these here just in case any of these come true. Maybe Portillos Hamburger just guessed Bummers extension. These will tell us if he/she is a legend or not lol

[hi8is]

Wet Butt.

[Balta1701]

7 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

We’re not in the 1950s where you no intel on rookies until you play them. Everyone knew Madrigal had no power and there are statcast information on players from minor league season as well. He hit .340 with a bad shoulder. People hate on Madrigal so much that they discredit his true hitting ability, it’s getting out of control at this point. He’s not going to be a star, but a safe pick 2-4 WAR every season.

While that would be nice, despite his high OBP this year, the lack of power, the weak defense, and outright bad base running left him a 0 WAR player. So, if he can’t fix the power part, he has to dramatically improve the other two. Normally I’d have said “he’s a rookie in a screwed up year with some injuries”, but this kid was supposed to be so highly polished out of college that I don’t think we get to use that excuse for him, he was supposed to be nearly finished.

[Chicago White Sox]

39 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While that would be nice, despite his high OBP this year, the lack of power, the weak defense, and outright bad base running left him a 0 WAR player. So, if he can’t fix the power part, he has to dramatically improve the other two. Normally I’d have said “he’s a rookie in a screwed up year with some injuries”, but this kid was supposed to be so highly polished out of college that I don’t think we get to use that excuse for him, he was supposed to be nearly finished.

We’re talking about 32 total games.  This idea that Nick is suddenly a poor defender or base-runner is laughable.  He made a handful of errors in a small sample size that drastically brought his fWAR down.  It’s not crazy to think that some of these miscues were driven by nerves and trying to do too much.  I’m not optimistic that power will ever come, but I’m confident that his fielding & base-running will be above average.  People really need to stop drawing conclusions about a player based on their first handful of games.

[bmags]

17 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

We’re talking about 32 total games.  This idea that Nick is suddenly a poor defender or base-runner is laughable.  He made a handful of errors in a small sample size that drastically brought his fWAR down.  It’s not crazy to think that some of these miscues were driven by nerves and trying to do too much.  I’m not optimistic that power will ever come, but I’m confident that his fielding & base-running will be above average.  People really need to stop drawing conclusions about a player based on their first handful of games.

I think this is true, but I also don't think it's worth discounting. My thought with madrigal was that his reported incredible baseball IQ would raise the impact of his other skills. It's not just in the majors where he has had an issue with running into outs. I think it may just be adjusting to game speed, but it isn't something I expected needing to be adjusted.

But the real question is position value. The difference in cost between a cost controlled second baseman and FA one has to be the smallest of any position in the game. The whole idea that "getting a 2 WAR player for 7 years is huge value" just seems crazy to me when Jose Iglesias keeps doing what he does for sub $5 mill and very little demand.

So if there is a chance of getting an impact player back and the cost is Madrigal, and it means we have to go sign a Kolten Wong, it's hard to see how the white sox would not be much better.

And the other side of this, is its really hard to take the pro-madrigal people seriously when the only thing they keep harping on is comparing him to hall of fame players from 50-70 years ago. It shouldn't be that hard, and the recent similar players have had...much less impact.

[Flash]

7 hours ago, Orlando said:

 

Saving these here just in case any of these come true. Maybe Portillos Hamburger just guessed Bummers extension. These will tell us if he/she is a legend or not lol

Whether Portillos Hamburgers is legit or not, Darvish is the right target. I'm guessing if the Cubs decide to shop him, it means they are cutting payroll and there will be other teams in the mix. Our chances improve if we can take on another contract, like Kimbrels.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Nobody had the Aaron Bummer extension. I was told it was happening but I didn't want to burn my source and I couldn't confirm anywhere. I mentioned it to one of the beat writers but nobody ever reported it. It happened about a week after that. Very strange. 

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, bmags said:

I think this is true, but I also don't think it's worth discounting. My thought with madrigal was that his reported incredible baseball IQ would raise the impact of his other skills. It's not just in the majors where he has had an issue with running into outs. I think it may just be adjusting to game speed, but it isn't something I expected needing to be adjusted.

But the real question is position value. The difference in cost between a cost controlled second baseman and FA one has to be the smallest of any position in the game. The whole idea that "getting a 2 WAR player for 7 years is huge value" just seems crazy to me when Jose Iglesias keeps doing what he does for sub $5 mill and very little demand.

So if there is a chance of getting an impact player back and the cost is Madrigal, and it means we have to go sign a Kolten Wong, it's hard to see how the white sox would not be much better.

And the other side of this, is its really hard to take the pro-madrigal people seriously when the only thing they keep harping on is comparing him to hall of fame players from 50-70 years ago. It shouldn't be that hard, and the recent similar players have had...much less impact.

Oh trust me, I’m not against trading him if we can get proper value in return.  As you pointed out, decent 2B aren’t necessarily hard to come by.  I just don’t think overreacting a ridiculously small sample is generally a smart thing to do, especially when they contradict what scoring reports have been saying for years.  All that being said, I’m ok with questions whether those scouting reports overstated his fielding & base-running abilities, but under no circumstance is Nick Madrigal the worst base-runner in baseball and that will self correct over time.

[Orlando]

32 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Nobody had the Aaron Bummer extension. I was told it was happening but I didn't want to burn my source and I couldn't confirm anywhere. I mentioned it to one of the beat writers but nobody ever reported it. It happened about a week after that. Very strange. 

Crazy! He had the Jarred Kelly signing too way in advanced. The exact amount and everything. Going through his Twitter and seeing how specific he is with his info and how he presents it makes him seem legit.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I think this is true, but I also don't think it's worth discounting. My thought with madrigal was that his reported incredible baseball IQ would raise the impact of his other skills. It's not just in the majors where he has had an issue with running into outs. I think it may just be adjusting to game speed, but it isn't something I expected needing to be adjusted.

But the real question is position value. The difference in cost between a cost controlled second baseman and FA one has to be the smallest of any position in the game. The whole idea that "getting a 2 WAR player for 7 years is huge value" just seems crazy to me when Jose Iglesias keeps doing what he does for sub $5 mill and very little demand.

So if there is a chance of getting an impact player back and the cost is Madrigal, and it means we have to go sign a Kolten Wong, it's hard to see how the white sox would not be much better.

And the other side of this, is its really hard to take the pro-madrigal people seriously when the only thing they keep harping on is comparing him to hall of fame players from 50-70 years ago. It shouldn't be that hard, and the recent similar players have had...much less impact.

Nicky made a couple of really dumb players in a very short period of time right after he got on the field.  One of them included running through a stop sign.  I swear to me he looked like a guy who was trying way too hard to make an impact.  After that I really can't recall any mental breakdowns on the basepaths.  He had some other issues, but looking back on the complete lack of power and some fielding issues, I wonder how much a bad shoulder needing pending surgery played into a couple of those things.  He is one of the ones I will be interested in seeing what he looks like at full strength this year.

[fathom]

9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Nicky made a couple of really dumb players in a very short period of time right after he got on the field.  One of them included running through a stop sign.  I swear to me he looked like a guy who was trying way too hard to make an impact.  After that I really can't recall any mental breakdowns on the basepaths.  He had some other issues, but looking back on the complete lack of power and some fielding issues, I wonder how much a bad shoulder needing pending surgery played into a couple of those things.  He is one of the ones I will be interested in seeing what he looks like at full strength this year.

He made two bad base running plays in Game 2 vs the A’s.  As bmags mentioned, he had issues running into outs in the minors as well.  One thing he needs to improve immediately is how he plays grounders right at the lip of the grass. His home field in college was all turf, so as he gets more experience on grass, hopefully he gets better in this area.

Edited November 9, 2020 by fathom

[maloney.adam]

49 minutes ago, Orlando said:

Crazy! He had the Jarred Kelly signing too way in advanced. The exact amount and everything. Going through his Twitter and seeing how specific he is with his info and how he presents it makes him seem legit.

Thanks for posting the tweets Orlando! I was going to do it last night but didn’t. He does seem legit with the information he has.

Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam

[bmags]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

Whether Portillos Hamburgers is legit or not, Darvish is the right target. I'm guessing if the Cubs decide to shop him, it means they are cutting payroll and there will be other teams in the mix. Our chances improve if we can take on another contract, like Kimbrels.

I think this is the right attitude on potentially good info people discussing incredibly preliminary plans in general. Even if it's fake - did it add a new interesting player to discuss? If so, then it's good. We've run through the ringer on bauer, stroman, joc, woodruff. Darvish and bullpen pieces are fun new topics for me.

[ron883]

I just can't see Darvish having much value at all after one good shortened season, given his salary and age. It's possible the White Sox pull a Reinsdorf special and include some prospects if they eat more salary

[bmags]

With McCullers I have to imagine that means hes a "Add a pitcher in FA + McCullers". He has been incredibly consistent, but his IP through the years has been low usually hovering around 20-25 Games Started.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

I just can't see Darvish having much value at all after one good shortened season, given his salary and age. It's possible the White Sox pull a Reinsdorf special and include some prospects if they eat more salary

I don't know, the shortened season was proving the 2nd half of 2019 where he turned it on.

[Jack Parkman]

18 minutes ago, bmags said:

I don't know, the shortened season was proving the 2nd half of 2019 where he turned it on.

Darvish has been pretty damn good outside of the first season and a half with the Cubs. I'm convinced the Astros cheating in the 2017 WS fucked with his head, and he only made 8 starts with the Cubs in 2018 while fighting injuries. It's not like he hasn't been dominant before. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/darviyu01.shtml

Edited November 9, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Orlando]

Darvish would be a dream get IMO. I trust him being dominate going forward more than Bauer and Stroman.