Putting things in realistic perspective.

[RagahRagah]

I have to admit that while I really dig this community, I believe there is far too much knee jerking and emotion that lacks realism here. I love this team but I also put things into perspective. The amount of hot takes and realistic takes is pretty staggering.

 

To be honest, I was gonna be super happy if they won but am not upset that they lost. Why? Realistic expectations were that they would not go farther than this. Expecting this team to be a serious contender with basically 2 starters and a lot of questions marks, as well as some old bad habits (still overall not great with RISP, etc.) is frankly unrealistic. 

 

Can anything happen? Sure. But once you have to go to that mindset you have to realize the team is not as good as you expect or think. While I want our team to succeed, I also want to earn it. And luck is usually not going to be enough to get you through to the end.

 

Granted, there are external factors. Bad umpiring has been a BIG factor and Renteria is an utterly terrible manager. But a lot of the Sox's failure has been on them as a team.

 

That said, what going forward? I do also cast blame Hahn's way as we did add some big pieces but missed out on a lot that we could have had that could have made us that contender. At this point I dont think I need to add them because they've been discussed ad nauseam. 

 

So what next? FA class this coming offseason and next don't look great so we HAVE to be aggressive and get some key pieces, but pitching is going to be scarce, and not a lot of young talent in terms of that available.

 

I've said from the beginning that while I'm glad they finally looked to rebuild, the same people that drove the franchise into the ground in the first place are the ones overseeing the rebuild. I will say that I'm hopeful, but I'm not going to lie and say I'm super positive that we're going to get what we need. There's a lot of reasons to fear that this organization is ultimately going to fail. And one of them has been Hahn's inability to sign big free agents. 

 

I remember that when the rebuild for started a lot of people here were annoyed that the Sox kept hoarding pitching prospects and claimed we didn't need that many. And I remember laughing at them.

 

Renteria also has to go. I get that we made the playoffs but that wasn't a big accomplishment this season and Renteria effectively helped cost us the division. He's an absolutely brutal in-game manager I could care less about results leading to manager of the Year titles and whatnot, that sort of thing should be decided analytically just like everything else, not just based on the record your team put up.

 

Long story short, I'm going to continue holding on to a little Hope as a Sox fan, but I cannot share what I honestly believe are a lot of delusions running rampant in this forum. I'm not telling you you should give up all hope, but I would expect more people to understand and acknowledge that this team basically got what they deserved and what I expected today.

 

And no matter what anyone accuses me of after reading this, I am a gigantic Sox fan. And being a fan doesn't have to mean being blind. I'm glad you all are so passionate about this team but I believe more of you need to come to terms with the situation that we are in.

 

All we can do is hope that either one of JR or Hahn get their heads out of their asses, or both.

 

Go get Bauer and Ozuna!!!

 

P.S. - being consistent as I am, I also shake my head at the people that absolutely flip out on every bad result and curse a player or manager for something it isn't their fault. Princeton, Dallas and Jose are not people that anyone should really be angry at right now. Some hot takes I've seen after someone strikes out or make a miscue a pretty ridiculous as well. I'm one of the biggest proponents of getting rid of Ricky Renteria, but admittedly some people here even blame him for stuff that isn't even his fault.

Edited October 2, 2020 by KonerkoFan1

[southsider2k5]

This team was probably a year ahead of schedule.  Rick Hahn tried to move this up to a contender in the off season by bringing in pieces where we were weak at DH, RF, and SP.  Dallas worked, the rest didn't.  I think now we have another years worth of data and information to go off of going into next year.  Getting Kopech back will be a nice shot in the arm, and after the playoffs I have zero doubt they figure out a way to bring in another top half starting pitcher.  it will be interesting to see how they budget for 2020, but overall I am pretty happy with this year, past the obvious sting of losing.  If you had told me before this season that this team would have qualified for the playoffs even under pre 2020 standards I would have been thrilled. 

[RagahRagah]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

This team was probably a year ahead of schedule.  Rick Hahn tried to move this up to a contender in the off season by bringing in pieces where we were weak at DH, RF, and SP.  Dallas worked, the rest didn't.  I think now we have another years worth of data and information to go off of going into next year.  Getting Kopech back will be a nice shot in the arm, and after the playoffs I have zero doubt they figure out a way to bring in another top half starting pitcher.  it will be interesting to see how they budget for 2020, but overall I am pretty happy with this year, past the obvious sting of losing.  If you had told me before this season that this team would have qualified for the playoffs even under pre 2020 standards I would have been thrilled. 

I forgot to mention that it feels like we're gonna have to bank on Kopech recovering and growing into a stud.

[hi8is]

31 minutes ago, KonerkoFan1 said:

I have to admit that while I really dig this community, I believe there is far too much knee jerking and emotion that lacks realism here. I love this team but I also put things into perspective. The amount of hot takes and realistic takes is pretty staggering.

 

To be honest, I was gonna be super happy if they won but am not upset that they lost. Why? Realistic expectations were that they would not go farther than this. Expecting this team to be a serious contender with basically 2 starters and a lot of questions marks, as well as some old bad habits (still overall not great with RISP, etc.) is frankly unrealistic. 

 

Can anything happen? Sure. But once you have to go to that mindset you have to realize the team is not as good as you expect or think. While I want our team to succeed, I also want to earn it. And luck is usually not going to be enough to get you through to the end.

 

Granted, there are external factors. Bad umpiring has been a BIG factor and Renteria is an utterly terrible manager. But a lot of the Sox's failure has been on them as a team.

 

That said, what going forward? I do also cast blame Hahn's way as we did add some big pieces but missed out on a lot that we could have had that could have made us that contender. At this point I dont think I need to add them because they've been discussed ad nauseam. 

 

So what next? FA class this coming offseason and next don't look great so we HAVE to be aggressive and get some key pieces, but pitching is going to be scarce, and not a lot of young talent in terms of that available.

 

I've said from the beginning that while I'm glad they finally looked to rebuild, the same people that drove the franchise into the ground in the first place are the ones overseeing the rebuild. I will say that I'm hopeful, but I'm not going to lie and say I'm super positive that we're going to get what we need. There's a lot of reasons to fear that this organization is ultimately going to fail. And one of them has been Hahn's inability to sign big free agents. 

 

I remember that when the rebuild for started a lot of people here were annoyed that the Sox kept hoarding pitching prospects and claimed we didn't need that many. And I remember laughing at them.

 

Renteria also has to go. I get that we made the playoffs but that wasn't a big accomplishment this season and Renteria effectively helped cost us the division. He's an absolutely brutal in-game manager I could care less about results leading to manager of the Year titles and whatnot, that sort of thing should be decided analytically just like everything else, not just based on the record your team put up.

 

Long story short, I'm going to continue holding on to a little Hope as a Sox fan, but I cannot share what I honestly believe are a lot of delusions running rampant in this forum. I'm not telling you you should give up all hope, but I would expect more people to understand and acknowledge that this team basically got what they deserved and what I expected today.

 

And no matter what anyone accuses me of after reading this, I am a gigantic Sox fan. And being a fan doesn't have to mean being blind. I'm glad you all are so passionate about this team but I believe more of you need to come to terms with the situation that we are in.

 

All we can do is hope that either one of JR or Hahn get their heads out of their asses, or both.

 

Go get Bauer and Ozuna!!!

 

P.S. - being consistent as I am, I also shake my head at the people that absolutely flip out on every bad result and curse a player or manager for something it isn't their fault. Princeton, Dallas and Jose are not people that anyone should really be angry at right now. Some hot takes I've seen after someone strikes out or make a miscue a pretty ridiculous as well. I'm one of the biggest proponents of getting rid of Ricky Renteria, but admittedly some people here even blame him for stuff that isn't even his fault.

Nice hot take. Welcome to Soxtalk.

[RagahRagah]

1 minute ago, hi8is said:

Nice hot take. Welcome to Soxtalk.

Lol. Thanks.

[SonofaRoache]

18 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This team was probably a year ahead of schedule.  Rick Hahn tried to move this up to a contender in the off season by bringing in pieces where we were weak at DH, RF, and SP.  Dallas worked, the rest didn't.  I think now we have another years worth of data and information to go off of going into next year.  Getting Kopech back will be a nice shot in the arm, and after the playoffs I have zero doubt they figure out a way to bring in another top half starting pitcher.  it will be interesting to see how they budget for 2020, but overall I am pretty happy with this year, past the obvious sting of losing.  If you had told me before this season that this team would have qualified for the playoffs even under pre 2020 standards I would have been thrilled. 

I don't think we were a year ahead of schedule at all. We came in as a 83 to 88 win team. I think in a full year we would have won 88 or 89 and missed post season. I think Minny takes the central, and Yankees and Celeveland/Houston as wild cards. 

The way this season was set up worked out well for us. I think we have a lot of good going for us, but are about 3 hitters away from being a legit contender. One is Yoan, one is Vaughn, and the other is Springer. We are 3 starters away from being a legit contender. One is Bauer, one is Kopech, and one is any of our other guys taking over the number 5 spot. We are a manager away from elite status, but if the other stuff I listed works out well, this may not be as big of a hindrance.  

The key for us, is to be injury and major slump proof. You need a lot of guys who can just get hits of many varieties. This team is not as good as people think yet, as evident by their 13 and 22 record against. 500 teams and poor play down the stretch. But they also aren't that far away from being an elite team either. The key is to not be the Twins or As, very good regular season teams that do nothing in post season. 

[reiks12]

We waited 12 years. I felt that way in 2008 but i feel this team had what it took to at least get to the championship series. We beat the Astros in 5 I would think. That hurts.

You dont know what happens next year. Giolito could come down with TJ, Keuchel might lose it, then who knowa you might not get back to the postseason.

Im upset because i was loving the anticipation and excitement these last 4 days. I dont know if it will be another 12 before I feel it again. This season saved my 2020. Maybe i just care too much.

[fathom]

Just now, reiks12 said:

We waited 12 years. I felt that way in 2008 but i feel this team had what it took to at least get to the championship series. We beat the Astros in 5 I would think. That hurts.

You dont know what happens next year. Giolito could come down with TJ, Keuchel might lose it, then who knowa you might not get back to the postseason.

Im upset because i was loving the anticipation and excitement these last 4 days. I dont know if it will be another 12 before I feel it again. This season saved my 2020. Maybe i just care too much.

You couldn’t have asked for a better path to the ALCS

[wegner]

The radio post game was frustrating to hear with some people saying fans never even expected them to make the playoffs this year.  With the expanded playoffs, I think most people here expected them to.  I think it's very reasonable as a Sox fan to be pissed tonight.  The A's were very beatable as well as the Astros would have been next week.

Here's a hot take....I'm pissed at the guy that was brought in here to pitch big games like yesterday.  There is plenty of blame to go around, but I am most disappointed with Keuchel at the moment.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Well lemme see. I thought the Mazara signing was worth a shot and stuck up for him as a guy who if he puts up his usual numbers against LHP we are in great shape and if he breaks out even better. Then I stuck up for him during the season thinking he had Covid , got a late start,maybe was having problems trying a more lift and pull approach . I finally gave up when Leury was reinstated thinking Mazara had all season to figure things out and looking at his final numbers was more like Tilson and Delmonicos 2019 numbers. Ha wrong again. Leury was just too rusty and Mazara finally came to life. When he came to life the the rest of the team died except Robert and Grandal but the clutch hitting went down south.

Last off season I didn't like the EE signing thinking with Abreu, McCann ,and Grandal plus possibly giving Collins and Mercedes a shot wasn't bad. But I understood the move to add a more trusted bat instead of going with untested bats . Srt of sucks Mercedes never really got a shot but that would've been very hard to accomplish except for when the Sox used Castillo and AJ Reed way too much.

I was more than happy with the Grandal and Keuchel signing but like everyone else kinda bummed that we didn't land Wheeler or a better option other than Gio Gonzalez but I kept being told we didnt need another starter or the Sox wouldn't put up the money for it. Yes I wanted to contend in 2020 and not just be happy with making the playoffs.

In keeping with that theme I wanted us to add Lance Lynn at the trade deadline. Wasn't to be .Tx.probably was asking too much but I thought for sure we would add at least another BP arm since Bummer was out. Also didn't happen but we kept the prospective minor leaguers who everyone didnt want to trade and turn into another Tatis, Semien, etc trade. Post Traumatic Tatis Syndrome.

Management did manage to extend some key guys and that's always good. But Moncada getting sick screwed his season and our LH depth once Mazara also turned into a pumpkin. But we did also manage to get Yolmer back which at the same time left Mendick the odd man out . Sanchez played fine so nothing much there to scream about.

We needed another BP arm and was fine with the Cishek signing. Oops props to anyone who saw that implosion coming.

Madrigal was the lightning rod around here. He hit really well and looked terrible at things most of us took for granted that we thought he was already good at.

I never advocated Vaughn being used this year.

This coming off season ? Wow like so many others Bauer looks like the prize but I have no idea whats going to happen next season. If they are letting a certain amount of fans in for this years ALCS and World Series and not sure what that can lead to next year. I have no idea what Jerry's going to let Hahn spend. I'm leaning towards not a lot since they couldn't accomplish it at the trade deadline nor did they really open up the pocket book to make this season better from the start.

I'm leaning towards non-tendering Rodon and Mazara and trading for Mike Yastrezmski but SF seems to always want to contend so doubtful he's attainable. Never liked the idea of Pederson . My 1st idea last off season was Corey Dickerson and thought Brett Gardner was an OK idea . Plus if the Sox make a trade and give up young talent I'll always wonder why they just didn't do it at this years trade deadline to make 2020 better and 2021 at the same time. Looks like Bauer is the clear choice but might end up Quintana which in my eyes would be typical of not finishing off what you started.

 

 

[jaws7575]

Honestly it starts from the top when your current manager makes Terry Bevington look smart-that is game over. I just do not feel he is the guy to get this team to the next stage.

[RagahRagah]

6 hours ago, jaws7575 said:

Honestly it starts from the top when your current manager makes Terry Bevington look smart-that is game over. I just do not feel he is the guy to get this team to the next stage.

I don't remember that far back but anyone I know that does has essentially tried to make me feel better about Ricky by telling me no one was worse than Terry.

 

Hyperbole?

[caulfield12]

9 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Well lemme see. I thought the Mazara signing was worth a shot and stuck up for him as a guy who if he puts up his usual numbers against LHP we are in great shape and if he breaks out even better. Then I stuck up for him during the season thinking he had Covid , got a late start,maybe was having problems trying a more lift and pull approach . I finally gave up when Leury was reinstated thinking Mazara had all season to figure things out and looking at his final numbers was more like Tilson and Delmonicos 2019 numbers. Ha wrong again. Leury was just too rusty and Mazara finally came to life. When he came to life the the rest of the team died except Robert and Grandal but the clutch hitting went down south.

Last off season I didn't like the EE signing thinking with Abreu, McCann ,and Grandal plus possibly giving Collins and Mercedes a shot wasn't bad. But I understood the move to add a more trusted bat instead of going with untested bats . Srt of sucks Mercedes never really got a shot but that would've been very hard to accomplish except for when the Sox used Castillo and AJ Reed way too much.

I was more than happy with the Grandal and Keuchel signing but like everyone else kinda bummed that we didn't land Wheeler or a better option other than Gio Gonzalez but I kept being told we didnt need another starter or the Sox wouldn't put up the money for it. Yes I wanted to contend in 2020 and not just be happy with making the playoffs.

In keeping with that theme I wanted us to add Lance Lynn at the trade deadline. Wasn't to be .Tx.probably was asking too much but I thought for sure we would add at least another BP arm since Bummer was out. Also didn't happen but we kept the prospective minor leaguers who everyone didnt want to trade and turn into another Tatis, Semien, etc trade. Post Traumatic Tatis Syndrome.

Management did manage to extend some key guys and that's always good. But Moncada getting sick screwed his season and our LH depth once Mazara also turned into a pumpkin. But we did also manage to get Yolmer back which at the same time left Mendick the odd man out . Sanchez played fine so nothing much there to scream about.

We needed another BP arm and was fine with the Cishek signing. Oops props to anyone who saw that implosion coming.

Madrigal was the lightning rod around here. He hit really well and looked terrible at things most of us took for granted that we thought he was already good at.

I never advocated Vaughn being used this year.

This coming off season ? Wow like so many others Bauer looks like the prize but I have no idea whats going to happen next season. If they are letting a certain amount of fans in for this years ALCS and World Series and not sure what that can lead to next year. I have no idea what Jerry's going to let Hahn spend. I'm leaning towards not a lot since they couldn't accomplish it at the trade deadline nor did they really open up the pocket book to make this season better from the start.

I'm leaning towards non-tendering Rodon and Mazara and trading for Mike Yastrezmski but SF seems to always want to contend so doubtful he's attainable. Never liked the idea of Pederson . My 1st idea last off season was Corey Dickerson and thought Brett Gardner was an OK idea . Plus if the Sox make a trade and give up young talent I'll always wonder why they just didn't do it at this years trade deadline to make 2020 better and 2021 at the same time. Looks like Bauer is the clear choice but might end up Quintana which in my eyes would be typical of not finishing off what you started.

 

 

If Crochet is out next year, that really puts the pressure on Vaughn, Bummer and Kopech, because we are unlikely to pay $10+ million for another closer with Bummer and Heuer around, not to mention Burdi.

Wouldn’t be shocked to see Reynaldo coming out of the bullpen if Crochet’s out, but he just doesn’t have a consistent strikeout  pitch unless he can change his spin rate and throw closer to 100.

Feels like Rodon, Mazara and EE are gone, along with McCann.

Mazara vs. Joc Pederson?  Sincerely doubt we pony up for Springer or Ozuna.

Leury vs. Yolmer vs. Mendick vs. Engel?   Feels like Renteria won’t part with Leury or Engel.

Backup catcher?  Francisco Mejia two years ago was the best catching prospect in baseball, I’d seriously think about dealing Collins and Stiever, because I don’t think he has good enough stuff to stick as a starter but time will tell. Maybe they’d take Collins and Rutherford/Adolfo instead.

In the end it really comes down to those four young pitchers (including Lopez as a reliever) and getting a solid starter via FA or trade.   I’ve said all along that Garrett Richards another year removed from TJ would be one of my picks, he feels exactly like the type of salary range (plus some upside potential) the Sox usually target in FA and he’s still relatively young.

Wish we could have bought low on Will Myers.  I pushed this idea numerous times and everyone laughed, but he’s going to be close to a Top Ten MVP vote getter in the NL, probably missing out due to being the much less notorious third wheel in that offense.

Edited October 2, 2020 by caulfield12

[Dominikk85]

The team is on a good way but there were still too many holes. The acquisitions to fill RF and DH did not work and cease and reylo did not take the step forward that could be hoped for plus the kopech situation.

The team did slightly overperform and some regression could come next year (anderson babip, jose will be good but not that good at age 34 and Keuchel got a little lucky too, maybe some relievers like colome decline a bit too) but on the other hand the team will add Vaughn, maybe a competent RF and a starter plus hopefully kopech coming back which will improve the team.

I would be very happy if they replicate this year's win pace of 94-95 wins next year.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Dominikk85 said:

The team is on a good way but there were still too many holes. The acquisitions to fill RF and DH did not work and cease and reylo did not take the step forward that could be hoped for plus the kopech situation.

The team did slightly overperform and some regression could come next year (anderson babip, jose will be good but not that good at age 34 and Keuchel got a little lucky too, maybe some relievers like colome decline a bit too) but on the other hand the team will add Vaughn, maybe a competent RF and a starter plus hopefully kopech coming back which will improve the team.

I would be very happy if they replicate this year's win pace of 94-95 wins next year.

Colome at best a 10-15% likelihood to return as he’s a FA.

[NWINFan]

A baseball season, even a shortened one, exposes a team. The last two weeks, when the Sox lost 10 of 13, exposed the club. I don't know if this team goes to the playoffs during a 162-game season.

This doesn't mean this season wasn't fun. It was great fun. You can see the young talent developing on the team. Before we had to watch placeholders go through the motions as the young talent developed in the minors. At least now we can see the potential.

But we may have to realize that it is possible this club is still one year away.

[Harry Chappas]

I think in the full season the Sox win 85 games maybe get the 5th seed.

I sadly think this season was too short to cut ties with Rodon and Mazara and determine the role Dunning and Cease will play long term.  Kopech will come up in May and that may be a good thing in the grand scheme of things although I think if he is healthy they win the whole thing this year.  Also have Lambert and Lopez handing around. 

They need to sit down with Bauer on day one and decide if they are going to sign him or not....if not pivot immediately to Quintana or another veteran.  You sign Bauer let Edwin and McCann go (the last month has shown he is what he always has been) or sign for a reasonable amount and go from there.  

Hopefully they saw enough of Vaughan in the OF to make a decision it is obvious Eloy cannot paly the OF and stay healthy. They need to limit the potential for injury with him as best they can as that bat is too much to miss.

Hopefully the last three days taught some guys some things on how to win.

 

 

[Flash Tizzle]

36 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

A baseball season, even a shortened one, exposes a team. The last two weeks, when the Sox lost 10 of 13, exposed the club. I don't know if this team goes to the playoffs during a 162-game season.

This doesn't mean this season wasn't fun. It was great fun. You can see the young talent developing on the team. Before we had to watch placeholders go through the motions as the young talent developed in the minors. At least now we can see the potential.

But we may have to realize that it is possible this club is still one year away.

I agree, they’re more than one year away..... from being a championship contender. However, the expectation should be set of the White Sox making the playoffs every year now. Regardless of the playoff format, or Minnesota and Cleveland, we cannot take any steps back from here. 

[pcq]

13 hours ago, KonerkoFan1 said:

Lol. Thanks.

Go back to the Bears maybe. 

[RagahRagah]

9 minutes ago, pcq said:

Go back to the Bears maybe. 

Maybe you could provide a counterpoint instead.

The idea that fandom means you can't criticize or realize and admit where there are problems is ridiculous. 

"Well, anything can happen!" =/= actually being a playoff caliber team.

But I know that for many, being rational is not a thing. I provided a balanced perspective; I gave the Sox benefit of the doubt for some things and also reamed Renteria. But the Sox still have issues enough that prevent them from being ready for this.

Edited October 2, 2020 by KonerkoFan1

[hogan873]

35 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

A baseball season, even a shortened one, exposes a team. The last two weeks, when the Sox lost 10 of 13, exposed the club. I don't know if this team goes to the playoffs during a 162-game season.

This doesn't mean this season wasn't fun. It was great fun. You can see the young talent developing on the team. Before we had to watch placeholders go through the motions as the young talent developed in the minors. At least now we can see the potential.

But we may have to realize that it is possible this club is still one year away.

I've been thinking about this, and I'm torn.  If this had been a regular season with no COVID, several things would have been different.  Moncada would have been healthy and probably would have played like 2019.  Kopech would have pitched.  EE and Mazara would have had more time to get into the swing of things (I'm less confident about this).

Overall, I think the team would have competed and could have qualified for the playoffs.  However, seeing RR mismanage the bullpen and roll out some questionable lineups, especially over the last week of the regular season, the team could have been managed right out of the playoffs.

[Blackout Friday]

This series upset me as much as it did because I believe we had the better team. I wasn’t happy in 2008, but wasn’t too upset because the Rays were obviously better than us. 
 

We need a SP, corner OF for sure. Someone needs to get at bats at DH, whether full time or in a rotation. If it was possible to get a new manager and retain Renteria in a lesser role I would, but since it isn’t realistic a new manager would be nice.

 

I even thought about Stone’s idea of two managers, but really that’s just changing job titles for the bench coach.