Will the Front Office Fire Renteria?

[RibbieRubarb]

40 minutes ago, ejm3 said:

I didn't get the announcement that you were the official expert on this chat forum as to what is or isn't funny. Based on your comment, you must be one of those few that thinks our manager did a good job and should keep his job! 

He isn't. I am. I have the award to prove it.

I rule....Not Funny.

[jamesdiego]

4 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

The projection for the team at fangraphs had the team at 31 wins so the team outperformed that by 4 wins. 

The team has great talent but also big holes, usually a team with only two legit starters doesn't win games at a 94 win clip (might not have happened anyway over 162)

Yea, nothing Ricky could have done about those big holes in the lineup.   The Quija board that he consulted daily told him that he must put Edwin and Mazara in the lineup, particularly adamant that Edwin’s weak bat be in the 5 hole.   Completely out of Ricky’s  hands, what can you do?

[Dominikk85]

If Ricky gets fired certainly not because of lineups. Edwin actually did sit like twice a week the last 3 weeks of the season and if Hahn wanted him to sit more than that he would have DFAed him because you don't carry a DH only for twice a week as it messes up the roster. 

I'm sure Hahn asked Ricky to sit EE twice a week and that is what he did the last 3 weeks and 2 of 3 playoff games. 

Now mazara vs Engel you could argue but projections actually thought Engel was going to be worse than Mazara and got super lucky and Hahn probably was OK with that too. 

If Hahn gets fired (which he likely won't in 2020) than because of bullpen decisions, there are almost no managers anymore who regularly post line ups the front office and analytics doesn't agree with. Occasionally a manager will go against recommendation, sure but not most of the time. 

[jamesdiego]

10 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

If Ricky gets fired certainly not because of lineups. Edwin actually did sit like twice a week the last 3 weeks of the season and if Hahn wanted him to sit more than that he would have DFAed him because you don't carry a DH only for twice a week as it messes up the roster. 

I'm sure Hahn asked Ricky to sit EE twice a week and that is what he did the last 3 weeks and 2 of 3 playoff games. 

Now mazara vs Engel you could argue but projections actually thought Engel was going to be worse than Mazara and got super lucky and Hahn probably was OK with that too. 

If Hahn gets fired (which he likely won't in 2020) than because of bullpen decisions, there are almost no managers anymore who regularly post line ups the front office and analytics doesn't agree with. Occasionally a manager will go against recommendation, sure but not most of the time. 

I see others who try to claim that it was Hahn who forced Ricky’s hand.   Or that it’s the analytics department who sets the lineups.  But this is the White Sox, they are not exactly an organization known to be ahead of the times, or even a part of current times.  I’m sure they have an analytics department and give the the lineups the numbers favor, but I don’t think that automatically means Ricky needs to follow them.  
 

He could very well be getting power to only take it as advice and has free reign to do what he mostly wishes.  Wasn’t  there a question posed to Ricky last offseason or spring training about analytics and he got almost pissed or offended at it even being brought up?  It sounded like he scoffed and brushed it off, which tells me that he doesn’t give much a damn about what the numbers say and thinks his gut and baseball instincts reign supreme.  
 

Unless I hear from a confirmed insider like James Fox or from Hahn himself that the front office / analytics department had the most say in lineups I will lean towards Ricky having the most say.  
 

Also, would the analytics department recommend Edwin hitting #5 all season?   Doesn’t pass the smell test to me.  I have a little hunch that analytics and Hahn also probably had nothing to do with Delmonico hitting second.   Why would analytics slot Robert so low in the lineup when he was killing the league in the beginning/ middle of the season?   Smells to me like Ricky’s “trusted” gut making these decisions.  
 

Hahn would have never DFA’d Edwin during the season as it would just piss off teammates who hold him in high respect.   That’s not worth the distraction in the locker room, so wasn’t even an option.  
 

And I’m not sure why you’re contemplating whether Hahn will get fired.  He has the GM job for as long as Jerry is alive, just like Kenny has his job for as long as Jerry lives.  
 

I could see Hahn losing his job when Jerry passes and they sell to a new owner.  Jerry is over 90 from what I understand so that can possibly come any year now.  So who really knows how long this front office has until uncertainty comes with new ownership.  
 

I hope Hahn is thinking long and hard how long he wants to hitch his wagon to such an inept manager.  I know from your other posts that you think Ricky had the Midas touch and made all the right moves in the last game.  But I think you might be alone in that regard, and I think Hahn and Kenny had their own “WTF?” reactions to some of Ricky’s moves.  I think they waited far too long for a contender and are debating Ricky’s future this week.  At least I am guessing (hoping) so   

[southsider2k5]

10 hours ago, jamesdiego said:

I see others who try to claim that it was Hahn who forced Ricky’s hand.   Or that it’s the analytics department who sets the lineups.  But this is the White Sox, they are not exactly an organization known to be ahead of the times, or even a part of current times.  I’m sure they have an analytics department and give the the lineups the numbers favor, but I don’t think that automatically means Ricky needs to follow them.  
 

He could very well be getting power to only take it as advice and has free reign to do what he mostly wishes.  Wasn’t  there a question posed to Ricky last offseason or spring training about analytics and he got almost pissed or offended at it even being brought up?  It sounded like he scoffed and brushed it off, which tells me that he doesn’t give much a damn about what the numbers say and thinks his gut and baseball instincts reign supreme.  
 

Unless I hear from a confirmed insider like James Fox or from Hahn himself that the front office / analytics department had the most say in lineups I will lean towards Ricky having the most say.  
 

Also, would the analytics department recommend Edwin hitting #5 all season?   Doesn’t pass the smell test to me.  I have a little hunch that analytics and Hahn also probably had nothing to do with Delmonico hitting second.   Why would analytics slot Robert so low in the lineup when he was killing the league in the beginning/ middle of the season?   Smells to me like Ricky’s “trusted” gut making these decisions.  
 

Hahn would have never DFA’d Edwin during the season as it would just piss off teammates who hold him in high respect.   That’s not worth the distraction in the locker room, so wasn’t even an option.  
 

And I’m not sure why you’re contemplating whether Hahn will get fired.  He has the GM job for as long as Jerry is alive, just like Kenny has his job for as long as Jerry lives.  
 

I could see Hahn losing his job when Jerry passes and they sell to a new owner.  Jerry is over 90 from what I understand so that can possibly come any year now.  So who really knows how long this front office has until uncertainty comes with new ownership.  
 

I hope Hahn is thinking long and hard how long he wants to hitch his wagon to such an inept manager.  I know from your other posts that you think Ricky had the Midas touch and made all the right moves in the last game.  But I think you might be alone in that regard, and I think Hahn and Kenny had their own “WTF?” reactions to some of Ricky’s moves.  I think they waited far too long for a contender and are debating Ricky’s future this week.  At least I am guessing (hoping) so   

How dumb do you think the front office is?  They saw RR with the Cubs.  They saw him on the bench with Robin in his last year, and how they have seen him run the team for four years.  If they didn't like him and he wasn't doing what the front office wanted, he wouldn't be here.  I think there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here for a situation that isn't nearly as tenuous as some would like.  This team was 72-89 last year, and was 35-25 this year, which was a 95 win pace.  They made the playoffs for the first time in 12 years.  The players seemingly love Ricky.  I think some people are so caught up in the individual moves, that they missing the forest for the trees. Maybe if another year or two down the road if RR really is stopping this  team from going something might happen, but it was clear this year that the primary problem was the lack of starting pitching, and the front office knows that better than anyone.  I have no doubt they will be looking to add at least one more primary starter, and maybe another depth piece besides.  They see their window as now.  If they thought RR wasn't in the window, he's already be gone.

[jamesdiego]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

How dumb do you think the front office is?  They saw RR with the Cubs.  They saw him on the bench with Robin in his last year, and how they have seen him run the team for four years.  If they didn't like him and he wasn't doing what the front office wanted, he wouldn't be here.  I think there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here for a situation that isn't nearly as tenuous as some would like.  This team was 72-89 last year, and was 35-25 this year, which was a 95 win pace.  They made the playoffs for the first time in 12 years.  The players seemingly love Ricky.  I think some people are so caught up in the individual moves, that they missing the forest for the trees. Maybe if another year or two down the road if RR really is stopping this  team from going something might happen, but it was clear this year that the primary problem was the lack of starting pitching, and the front office knows that better than anyone.  I have no doubt they will be looking to add at least one more primary starter, and maybe another depth piece besides.  They see their window as now.  If they thought RR wasn't in the window, he's already be gone.

 

In my eyes you’re the one who must think the Sox are dumb believing wholeheartedly that they are in lala land with their unabashed love for Ricky.  You really think that after the Sox front office just witnessed the train wreck of a managerial job Ricky did in the last week that they wouldn’t have ANY evaluation on his job?  Like there wasn’t even a possibility of a conversation after Ricky made move after move that blew up on his face?   
 

You must think very low of the Sox front office that after watching the last game they just shrugged their shoulders at Ricky’s decisions and were only disappointed at the players not performing/ lack of another starter.  Which I’m sure they were disappointed in the later two of course, but it’s 100% out of the realm of possibility that they were not disappointed in Ricky?  
 

I’m just giving an assumption of what a professional front office is going probably to discuss.  Is it 100% that Ricky is getting fired?  Hell naw, I now full well loyalty that runs deep here.  And some guys keep jobs when there are more qualified people more deserving of the job.  
 

But I’m not going to speak in absolutes that there is zero possibility that Ricky gets the can.  I know full well that Kenny is a passionate dude who cares a lot about winning.  And him and Hahn have had to sit through year after year of losing seasons waiting for their chance to be back on top.  And now they finally built this ridiculously impressive team they are not going to give a second thought on who’s running the ship?  That after all the disastrous moves in the past week they will 100% trust their baby in the hands of Ricky Renteria?  I believe the doubt had to have crept in their minds.  
 

But it’s a delicate situation for sure, the players loved Ricky.  We know they did, we can assume they still love him.  But what did the players think about his moves at the end?   These guys are all smart baseball men probably managing right along with every move being made on the field.  “Hmm, Is this the right?”, “oh fuck, not Rodon again!” 
 

I could definitely see Hahn and Kenny discussing Ricky with Jose and Tim to gauge the players thoughts before any move is made.  And I don’t think just because a move hasn’t been made, that means Ricky is in the clear.  The Sox are not going to make a decision that fast and impulsive, they would be methodical about it.  
 

Ricky has one more year correct?  The Sox usually don’t have lamb duck managers.  If they like you they extend you before the season.  There is a possibility the Sox let this last year play out and not extend him, just to give him one more chance.  Or I could be wrong and they foolishly extend the guy a few more years.  But there is a possibility he gets the boot though.  It’s weird to me to 100% assume that there isn’t a possibility.  

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, jamesdiego said:

 

In my eyes you’re the one who must think the Sox are dumb believing wholeheartedly that they are in lala land with their unabashed love for Ricky.  You really think that after the Sox front office just witnessed the train wreck of a managerial job Ricky did in the last week that they wouldn’t have ANY evaluation on his job?  Like there wasn’t even a possibility of a conversation after Ricky made move after move that blew up on his face?   
 

You must think very low of the Sox front office that after watching the last game they just shrugged their shoulders at Ricky’s decisions and were only disappointed at the players not performing/ lack of another starter.  Which I’m sure they were disappointed in the later two of course, but it’s 100% out of the realm of possibility that they were not disappointed in Ricky?  
 

I’m just giving an assumption of what a professional front office is going probably to discuss.  Is it 100% that Ricky is getting fired?  Hell naw, I now full well loyalty that runs deep here.  And some guys keep jobs when there are more qualified people more deserving of the job.  
 

But I’m not going to speak in absolutes that there is zero possibility that Ricky gets the can.  I know full well that Kenny is a passionate dude who cares a lot about winning.  And him and Hahn have had to sit through year after year of losing seasons waiting for their chance to be back on top.  And now they finally built this ridiculously impressive team they are not going to give a second thought on who’s running the ship?  That after all the disastrous moves in the past week they will 100% trust their baby in the hands of Ricky Renteria?  I believe the doubt had to have crept in their minds.  
 

But it’s a delicate situation for sure, the players loved Ricky.  We know they did, we can assume they still love him.  But what did the players think about his moves at the end?   These guys are all smart baseball men probably managing right along with every move being made on the field.  “Hmm, Is this the right?”, “oh fuck, not Rodon again!” 
 

I could definitely see Hahn and Kenny discussing Ricky with Jose and Tim to gauge the players thoughts before any move is made.  And I don’t think just because a move hasn’t been made, that means Ricky is in the clear.  The Sox are not going to make a decision that fast and impulsive, they would be methodical about it.  
 

Ricky has one more year correct?  The Sox usually don’t have lamb duck managers.  If they like you they extend you before the season.  There is a possibility the Sox let this last year play out and not extend him, just to give him one more chance.  Or I could be wrong and they foolishly extend the guy a few more years.  But there is a possibility he gets the boot though.  It’s weird to me to 100% assume that there isn’t a possibility.  

Its a real leap of faith to think that the front office sees a " train wreck" of a manager yet won't fire him when they know their contention window is now officially open.  That is negligence.

[RagahRagah]

25 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Its a real leap of faith to think that the front office sees a " train wreck" of a manager yet won't fire him when they know their contention window is now officially open.  That is negligence.

Welcome to Chicago White Sox fandom! There are some things we will need to go over...

[jamesdiego]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Its a real leap of faith to think that the front office sees a " train wreck" of a manager yet won't fire him when they know their contention window is now officially open.  That is negligence.

Train wreck is my description of his last week.  And is that really crazy to say?  Big Frank himself  had his own strong words about how the last week was handled.  
 

Negligence would be an organization not constantly evaluating a manager, especially one with zero history of being a winning manager before.  And Ricky isn’t solely responsible for the winning record this year.  Ricky gets high marks for his relations with players and keeping the clubhouse running smooth.  And that has been the only evaluation you can really make on him coming into this season.  Coming into the season we heard that the evaluation will turn to his Ricky handles a winning team with expectations, which is completely new to him.  
 

And you have the good with the bad (and some atrocious decisions).  The good what we all know as stated above.  The bad is terrible lineups much of the time, not putting his players in the best position to succeed, and some ridiculously bad bullpen managing when the games mattered most.  
 

The Sox certainly had to have been debating the ol’ Rickster ya least a little, nothing guaranteed that he’s staying or has a lifetime job like Hahn or Kenny.  

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, jamesdiego said:

Train wreck is my description of his last week.  And is that really crazy to say?  Big Frank himself  had his own strong words about how the last week was handled.  
 

Negligence would be an organization not constantly evaluating a manager, especially one with zero history of being a winning manager before.  And Ricky isn’t solely responsible for the winning record this year.  Ricky gets high marks for his relations with players and keeping the clubhouse running smooth.  And that has been the only evaluation you can really make on him coming into this season.  Coming into the season we heard that the evaluation will turn to his Ricky handles a winning team with expectations, which is completely new to him.  
 

And you have the good with the bad (and some atrocious decisions).  The good what we all know as stated above.  The bad is terrible lineups much of the time, not putting his players in the best position to succeed, and some ridiculously bad bullpen managing when the games mattered most.  
 

The Sox certainly had to have been debating the ol’ Rickster ya least a little, nothing guaranteed that he’s staying or has a lifetime job like Hahn or Kenny.  

If the Sox aren't firing him, they are on board with what he is doing.  If they have a major problem with him, they would fire him.  They would not let a guy that they didn't think could lead this team manage a team that is just starting its big run, and potentially waste those years.  Sure people like Frank Thomas and Steve Stone have opinions, but the only ones that really matter are JR, RH, and KW.  If they are OK, he stays.  if they don't think he can handle this, he goes.  They aren't about to waste time here.  Replacing RR would be a MUCH cheaper option spending for players.    I think you are retreating a bit from your original opinions hear to soften up the original statements to make them a bit more gray, so hopefully you realize that no front office would let a manager just do whatever the hell he wanted, especially if they thought it was stupid.  These guys are 100% working together on this decision making.  They made decisions during the season which were intended to try to get the guys they thought coming into the season would be best for the team in the playoffs. 

You mentioned things like EE hitting fifth. I am sure they weren't just looking at this seasons number and instead were judging him on the hitter he has been his career thinking that the team would be way better off with a vintage EE, than anyone else on the team in that role, so they tried to get him back there.  I promise you that if RH and KW had a problem with this, RR would have gotten a talking to and it wouldn't have happened more than once, or they would have fired him.  No management would tolerate mid level leadership who refused to be a team player, and the White Sox aren't any different.  RR is here because RH and KW think he can do this job.  If he was running around on his own, he wouldn't be here.

[South Side Hit Men]

34 minutes ago, jamesdiego said:

Train wreck is my description of his last week.  And is that really crazy to say?  Big Frank himself  had his own strong words about how the last week was handled.  

Don't see the Front Office going to Frank Thomas, Ozzie Guillen, Steve Stone, or any other public detractor of Rick Renteria for advice. Besides Rick Renteria is the final card Rick and Kenny can play to buy a few more years if things don't pan out. They will hold onto that card as long as possible, no need to play it now after their first marginally successful season in decades.

' "Deep Thoughts" by White Sox "John Paxton" Kenny Williams, regarding "Big Frank":

"He's an idiot. He's selfish. That's why we don't miss him"

"We don't miss him, by the way, if you go out there and ask any one of my players or staff members, we don't miss him. We don't miss his attitude. We don't miss the whining. We don't miss it. Good riddance."

"If he was any kind of a man, he would quit talking about things in the paper and return a phone call or come knock on someone's door. If I had the kind of problems evidently he had with me, I would go knock on his door."

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by South Side Hit Men

[Jerksticks]

40 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If the Sox aren't firing him, they are on board with what he is doing.  If they have a major problem with him, they would fire him.  They would not let a guy that they didn't think could lead this team manage a team that is just starting its big run, and potentially waste those years.  Sure people like Frank Thomas and Steve Stone have opinions, but the only ones that really matter are JR, RH, and KW.  If they are OK, he stays.  if they don't think he can handle this, he goes.  They aren't about to waste time here.  Replacing RR would be a MUCH cheaper option spending for players.    I think you are retreating a bit from your original opinions hear to soften up the original statements to make them a bit more gray, so hopefully you realize that no front office would let a manager just do whatever the hell he wanted, especially if they thought it was stupid.  These guys are 100% working together on this decision making.  They made decisions during the season which were intended to try to get the guys they thought coming into the season would be best for the team in the playoffs. 

You mentioned things like EE hitting fifth. I am sure they weren't just looking at this seasons number and instead were judging him on the hitter he has been his career thinking that the team would be way better off with a vintage EE, than anyone else on the team in that role, so they tried to get him back there.  I promise you that if RH and KW had a problem with this, RR would have gotten a talking to and it wouldn't have happened more than once, or they would have fired him.  No management would tolerate mid level leadership who refused to be a team player, and the White Sox aren't any different.  RR is here because RH and KW think he can do this job.  If he was running around on his own, he wouldn't be here.

I don’t get how people fail to see this.  Good post 

[ChiSox1917]

Im willing to donate $20 to the fire rickey renteria fund

[Stinky Stanky]

On 10/2/2020 at 6:20 AM, KonerkoFan1 said:

These posts bashing Kopech are such bad takes.

 

Life is more important than baseball and you can't take someone else's inventory. Period.

I'm not blaming him, just saying that his absence hurt.  This is a great thread that had a brief moment off the tracks for petty bolshoi but got it back together.  It would have been unnecessary if Jose could have got a clutch hit those last 2 games.  Still MVP, but...  It would have been unnecessary if DK gave us 6 nice innings in game 2.   BTW, the 'stros got to Bassitt in his next outing.  It's all futile cuz we were not capable of winning more than a 3 game series.  The post about RR being replaced at midseason.  It ain't that crazy.  Wasn't Lamont?

I had fun this season.  I hope you all did.  

[southsider2k5]

For the record, the Yankees just pulled their rookie starter after 1 inning, and one run allowed.

[jamesdiego]

19 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

If the Sox aren't firing him, they are on board with what he is doing.  If they have a major problem with him, they would fire him.  They would not let a guy that they didn't think could lead this team manage a team that is just starting its big run, and potentially waste those years.  Sure people like Frank Thomas and Steve Stone have opinions, but the only ones that really matter are JR, RH, and KW.  If they are OK, he stays.  if they don't think he can handle this, he goes.  They aren't about to waste time here.  Replacing RR would be a MUCH cheaper option spending for players.    I think you are retreating a bit from your original opinions hear to soften up the original statements to make them a bit more gray, so hopefully you realize that no front office would let a manager just do whatever the hell he wanted, especially if they thought it was stupid.  These guys are 100% working together on this decision making.  They made decisions during the season which were intended to try to get the guys they thought coming into the season would be best for the team in the playoffs. 

You mentioned things like EE hitting fifth. I am sure they weren't just looking at this seasons number and instead were judging him on the hitter he has been his career thinking that the team would be way better off with a vintage EE, than anyone else on the team in that role, so they tried to get him back there.  I promise you that if RH and KW had a problem with this, RR would have gotten a talking to and it wouldn't have happened more than once, or they would have fired him.  No management would tolerate mid level leadership who refused to be a team player, and the White Sox aren't any different.  RR is here because RH and KW think he can do this job.  If he was running around on his own, he wouldn't be here.

I am not retreating from my original statements.  This is what I originally said that got you worked up.  
 

“I hope Hahn is thinking long and hard how long he wants to hitch his wagon to such an inept manager.  I know from your other posts that you think Ricky had the Midas touch and made all the right moves in the last game.  But I think you might be alone in that regard, and I think Hahn and Kenny had their own “WTF?” reactions to some of Ricky’s moves.  I think they waited far too long for a contender and are debating Ricky’s future this week.  At least I am guessing (hoping) so”
 

Maybe you have other definitions of the words hope or guess, but I never claimed Sox are for sure firing Ricky.  I only said I hope they would.  Though I absolutely believe Ricky’s status as manager was certainly discussed after they got the boot from the playoffs.  
 

Which weirdly you claim that Ricky’s job is so untouchable that the front office won’t even debate on.  Not even a simple conversation on whether he is the guy going forward or not. 
 

If they already decided last year Ricky was the guy no matter what his performance was this year, then why didn’t they extend him before the season?   
 

I offered my logical opinions on why the Sox would at least be debating if he’s the guy or not.  I don’t think the debate is only how many years to resign Ricky and for what amount.  That sounds ridiculous to me after Ricky’s all time poor performance at the end of the season.  
 

We’ll see what happens shortly I imagine.  Either they will fire him or re-up his contract, if he is going to be heading into his final year.  I don’t even know contract, if it’s for two years then they could certainly wait another year.  I’d like someone said this is his final year coming up then something is likely to happen.  
 

If it’s in the bag like you say, then a new contract will be announced any day now I imagine.