Why was Dunning pulled after 15 pitches?

[jaws7575]

I am not trying to do a 20/20 thing but at the time  I was stunned . i know the last game Dunning was not as good but give the chance -he never had a chance to get some type of tempo-maybe he pitches out of the jam there were two outs.  I agree with Frank Thomas our manager gave off bad vibe that he thought that they could not score and would  lose. The way he was handling the pitching staff even when the team had a 3-0 lead  I had a bad feeling. I can't recall a whole bull pen being at high  alert  after 15 pitches-I know it was all hands on deck. Dunning did have some good games. Lets say  argument sakes and the sox tie the game at 6--------and it goes 11 12 1 3  innings who is left to pitch? I was on the fence about this manager but this whole series was a tipping point for me. This sox team should have won this series. I want a new Manager  but sox past history says he will stay.

[joejoesox]

1 hour ago, jaws7575 said:

I am not trying to do a 20/20 thing but at the time  I was stunned . i know the last game Dunning was not as good but give the chance -he never had a chance to get some type of tempo-maybe he pitches out of the jam there were two outs.  I agree with Frank Thomas our manager gave off bad vibe that he thought that they could not score and would  lose. The way he was handling the pitching staff even when the team had a 3-0 lead  I had a bad feeling. I can't recall a whole bull pen being at high  alert  after 15 pitches-I know it was all hands on deck. Dunning did have some good games. Lets say  argument sakes and the sox tie the game at 6--------and it goes 11 12 1 3  innings who is left to pitch? I was on the fence about this manager but this whole series was a tipping point for me. This sox team should have won this series. I want a new Manager  but sox past history says he will stay.

probably because Dunning has gotten lit up like a Christmas tree in his last few outings, and if you take that into account along with the fact that he was throwing balls right over the middle of the plate yesterday and the As were all over him, RR probably thought he had the arms available to at least make it through the whole game with a few guys.  sadly Marshall, Heuer, and Foster all pissed themselves and Crochet blew out his elbow

 

[reiks12]

This game is going to haunt me all offseason

[jaws7575]

I have seen pitchers have rough first  innings  and move on  and get better. I understand  all  hands on deck but for crying out loud give the guy a chance. He did have 2 outs and he did not have any runs scored on him.  Why start him? As for the rest of the game everyone on the sox mound was looking over their shoulder at the bull pen-you better believe that.  I do not think I have ever seen a pitcher pulled that fast  when he was not hurt and had two outs and there was no score. Were we that scared that if Oakland scored one run in that inning that the game would be over? That is what your telling your team.

[ron883]

14 minutes ago, jaws7575 said:

I have seen pitchers have rough first  innings  and move on  and get better. I understand  all  hands on deck but for crying out loud give the guy a chance. He did have 2 outs and he did not have any runs scored on him.  Why start him? As for the rest of the game everyone on the sox mound was looking over their shoulder at the bull pen-you better believe that.  I do not think I have ever seen a pitcher pulled that fast  when he was not hurt and had two outs and there was no score. Were we that scared that if Oakland scored one run in that inning that the game would be over? That is what your telling your team.

Are you just rewriting exactly what Frank Thomas said during the post-game, verbatim? That's what it sounds like. In fact, that's what all your posts appear to be.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Yearnin' for Yermin

[ChiSox1917]

27 minutes ago, joesaiditstrue said:

probably because Dunning has gotten lit up like a Christmas tree in his last few outings, and if you take that into account along with the fact that he was throwing balls right over the middle of the plate yesterday and the As were all over him, RR probably thought he had the arms available to at least make it through the whole game with a few guys.  sadly Marshall, Heuer, and Foster all pissed themselves and Crochet blew out his elbow

 

Did you even watch dunnings 15 pitches?  His first 14 pitches, every single one, were good pitches that were within 2 inches of the edge of the strike zone (just went back and watched the game to confirm it).  He was painting the strike zone.  La Stella had a hit on a good pitch that was at the very bottom of the zone.  The only pitch he hung was the last one he threw.  
 

rickey managed the pen today like a crack addict

Edited October 2, 2020 by ChiSox1917

[chw42]

I don't really know if Dunning got lit up. He gave up a single on a low fastball to La Stella. He did hang the slider to Canha that got him pulled. But from the pitch charts, that was the only slider he hung. All the other ones were lower in the zone or out of the zone.

Either way, Ricky has said the plan was to have Crochet face Olson. So the initial plan was for Dunning to only pitch to 5 hitters.

Edited October 2, 2020 by chw42

[ChiSox1917]

1 minute ago, chw42 said:

I don't really know if Dunning got lit up. He gave up a single on a low fastball to La Stella. He did hang the slider to Canha that got him pulled. But from the pitch charts, that was the only slider he hung. All the other ones were lower in the zone or out of the zone.

Either way, Ricky has said the plan was to have Crochet face Olson. So the initial plan was for Dunning to only pitch to 5 hitters.

He didnt get lit up at all.  He was actually looking good.  If rickey was going to have such a short leash on his opener than he shouldve started a reliever, not a guy that could give the team 3-5 innings if needed

[fathom]

2 hours ago, chw42 said:

I don't really know if Dunning got lit up. He gave up a single on a low fastball to La Stella. He did hang the slider to Canha that got him pulled. But from the pitch charts, that was the only slider he hung. All the other ones were lower in the zone or out of the zone.

Either way, Ricky has said the plan was to have Crochet face Olson. So the initial plan was for Dunning to only pitch to 5 hitters.

Go back and watch the Lamb AB.  He missed his spot badly the whole AB and wasn’t crisp at all. I’m sure if he didn’t struggle the last two games, they might have been more patient.

[Dominikk85]

The biggest issue except for everyone walking guys was crochet getting hurt. The sox would have needed two innings out of crochet. 

Dunning struggled the last weeks already and thus his leash was always going to be short.

That being said I would have preferred crochet opening for dunning but I can also understand the thinking of hoping for 2-3 innings out of dunning.

[Harry Chappas]

He was pitching better than Fiers.  The top of the A's order should get on base.  He got two outs and gave up no runs on two soft singles.

He struggled if you want to call it that to the top four hitters in their lineup.  He didn't have a chance to fail or at least come close to it.  After the top of the first you had to think the Sox would get to Fiers and go from there.     

The White Sox bullpen had shown all season that they could be exposed and they were by the A's as I have pointed out numerous times.  They are young relievers that the A's were making work.

Not sure if it was Ricky or Cooper but whoever was handling the staff yesterday panicked and then failed miserably.

I have not looked deeply into it but if Crochet was taken out simply because his velocity was down but he is fine and said so, and they still pulled him, they should be fired on the spot.  Crochet was hoping to go 2+, maybe he did the Cooper and scaled back his velocity (to 98 BTW) to go longer and be more effective deeper into the game.

In the end if Crochet is healthy I am a happy camper.

 

 

 

 

[fathom]

If he left Dunning in to face Olson, their best power guy, and gives up a 3 run homer, almost all of us would have gone ballistic.

[Buehrle>Wood]

I liked the move. The issue was Crochet getting hurt.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

6 minutes ago, fathom said:

If he left Dunning in to face Olson, their best power guy, and gives up a 3 run homer, almost all of us would have gone ballistic.

Exactly. Everyone being angry about pulling Dunning is just revisionist history. I’m probably Ricky’s biggest critic but I don’t blame him that much for yesterday. Crochet getting hurt pretty much ruined the plan. The only things I blame Renteria for is using Bummer too early and putting Foster into that bases loaded situation.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Exactly. Everyone being angry about pulling Dunning is just revisionist history. I’m probably Ricky’s biggest critic but I don’t blame him that much for yesterday. Crochet getting hurt pretty much ruined the plan. The only things I blame Renteria for is using Bummer too early and putting Foster into that bases loaded situation.

Yep absolutely, couldn’t agree more. 

[ChiSox59]

Pulling Dunning was absolutely the right call. But we needed 2-3 innings out of Crochet, Foster to not have his worst outing of the year and not need to go to Rodon.

Once Crochet went down and we had Bummer in in the 2nd inning, I knew 3 runs wasn’t going to be nearly enough. 

[ChiSox59]

5 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Exactly. Everyone being angry about pulling Dunning is just revisionist history. I’m probably Ricky’s biggest critic but I don’t blame him that much for yesterday. Crochet getting hurt pretty much ruined the plan. The only things I blame Renteria for is using Bummer too early and putting Foster into that bases loaded situation.

The Rodon IBB was also a bad call. I think he preferred Rodon not having to throw another pitch and was confident Foster could get out of it (he had been so good all year), but it was head scratcher in hindsight. Maybe cost them the game. Problem is, no IBB there and Rodon has to face that batter. In hindsight it’s easy to say that was the right call - and I think it was - but I can at least understand RR logic. In real-time I didn’t hate it. 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

He pulled his starter in the 1st and burned his three best relievers by the 3rd.  He managed scared and the team knew it.  

[wegner]

If he used Foster after Heuer with the bases empty instead of trying Rodon there, we might be talking about taking on Houston next week.  But it's possible Foster would have not been able to find the plate in either scenario.  But of course hindsight is 20/20.  Having so many rookies in your bullpen for a pressure packed game is tough.

To be honest, I am still pretty upset that Keuchel did not get the job done in game 2 (the type of game we brought him in for as a free agent) to make game 3 unnecessary.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

14 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

The Rodon IBB was also a bad call. I think he preferred Rodon not having to throw another pitch and was confident Foster could get out of it (he had been so good all year), but it was head scratcher in hindsight. Maybe cost them the game. Problem is, no IBB there and Rodon has to face that batter. In hindsight it’s easy to say that was the right call - and I think it was - but I can at least understand RR logic. In real-time I didn’t hate it. 

Foster should have come into the game after Crochet got hurt. Like you said, he still might have been able to throw strikes but at least there wasn’t anyone on base at that point. But it’s all water under the bridge now.

[yesterday333]

We ran into exactly why you don’t do a bullpen game. One injury and a couple guys off their game and we run out of pitchers. I was against the bullpen game the whole time but this is exactly what most the board was saying to do the whole time. Pull Dunning at the first sign of struggle. I would not have gone that route but most people here had already stated that is what they would do.

[Perfect Vision]

I'm surprised the decision to pull Dunning has turned into such a focal point for fans.  IMO it was the right decision.  Crochet came in and got out of the jam.  The Sox loss has much more to do with Crochet's injury, Heuer giving up a bomb, Foster not being able to throw strikes, and many missed opportunities with RISP than it has to do with the Dunning decision. 

[yesterday333]

12 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said:

I'm surprised the decision to pull Dunning has turned into such a focal point for fans.  IMO it was the right decision.  Crochet came in and got out of the jam.  The Sox loss has much more to do with Crochet's injury, Heuer giving up a bomb, Foster not being able to throw strikes, and many missed opportunities with RISP than it has to do with the Dunning decision. 

All of those reasons are why you don’t do a bullpen day. When things don’t work out exactly as planned it puts you in a big hole. I don’t blame rr for it but I really thought it wasn’t a good idea and everyone here was all for it.  

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

I liked the move. The issue was Crochet getting hurt.

This was the key moment here.  They had planned for Dunning not being effective, they did not plan on an injury.

[Dick Allen]

The Big Hurt said warming a guy up the second Dunning gave up 1 hit did two very bad things. It ruined Dunning's confidence, and it hurt the rest of the team's confidence. If the plan is to use 8 or 9 guys, chances are there are going to be a couple, if not more, that don't have it that day. You can't be afraid of 1 run in the first inning.

If the plan was to use Crochet for a few innings early, why didn't they start him? 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Dick Allen