Why was Dunning pulled after 15 pitches?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

16 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Yes, you are wrong.  Reading your thought process post was like taking a look into the mind of a panicked little league coach.  Managing the game in the first inning as if its a 1 run game with the guy on the mound that can eat the most innings for you is flat out stupid and frankly inexcusable.

As for how dunning was pitching, he was not missing his spots by much, and as stated earlier, 13 of his 14 first pitches were either right on or barely off the edges of the strike zone.  Thats pretty damn good command.  Two soft hits in a sample size of 4 batters is nothing.  Sometimes guys get hits on good pitches (la stella).  All pitchers get into jams in a game from time to time, even when theyre pitching well.  Dunnings stuff was moving and he was living right on the edges of the zone.  If a manager sees that, he needs to give him a couple innings, not pull him after throwing his first bad pitch.  
 

im also not second guessing anything.  Was screaming at the tv when rickey was coming out to take him out.  Only nerds whove never played baseball think that what rickey did was a good move

So you would have preferred Dunning staying in the game in a do or die game because you were confident he gets that 3rd out and doesn't give up a run and put the Sox behind from the get go  ? Maybe you didn't like that 72.4 % win win probability way after Dunning was removed and the Sox held a 3-0 lead in the bottom of the 4th ?

Ok maybe you prefer instead the Sox started Heuer or Foster. Tell me how that would ve gone. Once again you can't. Face facts it was a meltdown from much more reliable arms than Dunning that led to the Sox loss and most of all Crochets injury. You keep thinking you're some baseball expert and so will I but some of the smarter minds on this website happen to agree with me.

There was a game plan and they stuck to it with good results until the Crochet injury threw everything out of whack. You then needed some of those good pitchers to perform and they did not. Players not performing up to standards they have established is not the fault of the manager. Hitters failed, pitchers failed and got injured. You don't win giving up as many walks as the Sox good pitchers did. This was not my game plan . It was the Sox and I said at the beginning of that post you could disagree with that thought process but it was working until Heuer gave up the 2 run HR and all the bad from Rodon , Foster and Marshall helped along by a catchers interference from a batter who seems to be good at getting them. It is not panicked or little league thinking. It's doing what you have to do in a situation that warrants it.

Fine you disagree with the thought process. It does not make you right and everyone else an idiot.

[greg775]

26 minutes ago, yesterday333 said:

It was the plan before the game started. I can almost guarantee it wasn’t RRs plan. Lots of smart people agreed with the plan. This is not RRs fault for following the plan.

Modern baseball. Too.Many.Cooks. Get a good roster and play ball. 

Isn't it funny how that one inning Sox were down two runs and it was first and second no outs, 10 years ago that's bunt no matter what, down two on the road no out. Moncada made out instead of bunting. Not that I want the bunt with the Sox's big boppers.

Edited October 2, 2020 by greg775

[yesterday333]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So you would have preferred Dunning staying in the game in a do or die game because you were confident he gets that 3rd out and doesn't give up a run and put the Sox behind from the get go  ? Maybe you didn't like that 72.4 % win win probability way after Dunning was removed and the Sox held a 3-0 lead in the bottom of the 4th ?

Ok maybe you prefer instead the Sox started Heuer or Foster. Tell me how that would ve gone. Once again you can't. Face facts it was a meltdown from much more reliable arms than Dunning that led to the Sox loss and most of all Crochets injury. You keep thinking you're some baseball expert and so will I but some of the smarter minds on this website happen to agree with me.

There was a game plan and they stuck to it with good results until the Crochet injury threw everything out of whack. You then needed some of those good pitchers to perform and they did not. Players not performing up to standards they have established is not the fault of the manager. Hitters failed, pitchers failed and got injured. You don't win giving up as many walks as the Sox good pitchers did. This was not my game plan . It was the Sox and I said at the beginning of that post you could disagree with that thought process but it was working until Heuer gave up the 2 run HR and all the bad from Rodon , Foster and Marshall helped along by a catchers interference from a batter who seems to be good at getting them. It is not panicked or little league thinking. It's doing what you have to do in a situation that warrants it.

Fine you disagree with the thought process. It does not make you right and everyone else an idiot.

That was very well said. You and I disagree on this topic too. RR followed the plan to a t. I disagreed with the plan. Everything has to go right for it to work but I can see why it was the plan.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

45 minutes ago, KipWellsFan said:

Yeah I don't think I'll ever really understand this move... If we were going to pull him so quickly why didn't we just start the game with someone we were really confident in?  I also was mad when they gave Bummer they yank so quick. This was a very strange way to manage a game.

Didn't Matt Foster start a game? I know he had a bad game, but I thought it would have made more sense to go with someone like him in advance of the game.

All that being said... if your best guys are going to walk a ton of guys that's not really on Ricky.

But alas...

Oakland hits righties better than lefties So you get the RH Dunning in to start. Ideally he pitches without giving up a run or maybe 1 run but definitely you want a scoreless 1st . Yank him when there's trouble and now you bring in the lefties hoping that you can get 3 innings from Crochet and Bummer combined to offset the LH hitting strength of the A's. The Crochet injury messed that up but we still got through those less innings without giving up any runs. It wasn't until the RHP of the Sox reappeared that the A's got runs but at that point you really needed  a couple of scoreless innings from one of Heuer , Foster or Marshall and not one of them could do it.

[Blackout Friday]

Poor choice. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 minutes ago, yesterday333 said:

That was very well said. You and I disagree on this topic too. RR followed the plan to a t. I disagreed with the plan. Everything has to go right for it to work but I can see why it was the plan.

Oakland tried to get innings from  Fiers  too and left him in to give up a run in 2 innings with 5 hits and its should've been more runs. Fiers is a vet, a guy with 2 career no hitters I think. They got 2 very shaky innings from him . Dunning is a rookie coming off TJ suregry with very limited exposure MLB hitters . The Sox didn't have anyone like Fiers . All they had was a bunch of rookies and Marshall and Cordero. Who wanted to see Cordero or Rodon start ? No one .

I don't think everything had to go right to win . But everything going wrong means you probably don't win.  We got too little too late from Cordero and Colome and hitters leaving way too many on base in the last 3 innings and really throughout the game.

[yesterday333]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Oakland tried to get innings from  Fiers  too and left him in to give up a run in 2 innings with 5 hits and its should've been more runs. Fiers is a vet, a guy with 2 career no hitters I think. They got 2 very shaky innings from him . Dunning is a rookie coming off TJ suregry with very limited exposure MLB hitters . The Sox didn't have anyone like Fiers . All they had was a bunch of rookies and Marshall and Cordero. Who wanted to see Cordero or Rodon start ? No one .

I don't think everything had to go right to win . But everything going wrong means you probably don't win.  We got too little too late from Cordero and Colome and hitters leaving way too many on base in the last 3 innings and really throughout the game.

I would have let Dunning go til a couple runs were given up or around 3 innings. I also would’ve used Bummer later. Alas we still probably should have won the game with these things going wrong (the injury and under performing). I didn’t hate the plan but I would not have used it.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, yesterday333 said:

I would have let Dunning go til a couple runs were given up or around 3 innings. I also would’ve used Bummer later. Alas we still probably should have won the game with these things going wrong (the injury and under performing). I didn’t hate the plan but I would not have used it.

You let Dunning stick around to give up a couple runs and you got the same people screaming that RR is an idiot or that you're an idiot . Not saying you are just you don't have fans here who see it any other way than their own and anyone who disagrees is an idiot. I love intelligent discussion and welcome opposing views but if you can't do it in a civilized way without throwing around insults and vastly proclaiming your way is the only way to look at it I can't deal with you. SO thank you for disagreeing in a more than welcome way .

[yesterday333]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You let Dunning stick around to give up a couple runs and you got the same people screaming that RR is an idiot or that you're an idiot . Not saying you are just you don't have fans here who see it any other way than their own and anyone who disagrees is an idiot. I love intelligent discussion and welcome opposing views but if you can't do it in a civilized way without throwing around insults and vastly proclaiming your way is the only way to look at it I can't deal with you. SO thank you for disagreeing in a more than welcome way .

Exactly. Both ways could’ve worked and both could’ve fallen apart. But either way people were gonna blame RR for it falling apart. Haha there is a reason I don’t post very often cuz I don’t like how a lot respond to differing opinions.

[ChiSox1917]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

Maybe you should?

Omg, so calling someone panicked or wrong is an insult to you?  How soft are you?  In 3 paragraphs you got so worked up over 4 sentences.  Somethings wrong with you bro.  

55 minutes ago, Quin said:

While I agree that Dunning got an unnecessarily early hook and that it probably cost them the game, you're coming off as very grumpy here.

We just got bounced from the playoffs because our manager managed scared.  Youre damn right im grumpy.  Would be in a better mood if everyones slumps just continued into this series.

49 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So you would have preferred Dunning staying in the game in a do or die game because you were confident he gets that 3rd out and doesn't give up a run and put the Sox behind from the get go  ? Maybe you didn't like that 72.4 % win win probability way after Dunning was removed and the Sox held a 3-0 lead in the bottom of the 4th ?

Ok maybe you prefer instead the Sox started Heuer or Foster. Tell me how that would ve gone. Once again you can't. Face facts it was a meltdown from much more reliable arms than Dunning that led to the Sox loss and most of all Crochets injury. You keep thinking you're some baseball expert and so will I but some of the smarter minds on this website happen to agree with me.

There was a game plan and they stuck to it with good results until the Crochet injury threw everything out of whack. You then needed some of those good pitchers to perform and they did not. Players not performing up to standards they have established is not the fault of the manager. Hitters failed, pitchers failed and got injured. You don't win giving up as many walks as the Sox good pitchers did. This was not my game plan . It was the Sox and I said at the beginning of that post you could disagree with that thought process but it was working until Heuer gave up the 2 run HR and all the bad from Rodon , Foster and Marshall helped along by a catchers interference from a batter who seems to be good at getting them. It is not panicked or little league thinking. It's doing what you have to do in a situation that warrants it.

Fine you disagree with the thought process. It does not make you right and everyone else an idiot.

Ive already said what i would have done, or how you smartly implement an opener.  If your plan is to go with an opener, you use a reliever, not a guy that can eat 3-5 innings.  
 

one of 2 things should have been done, either  letting dunning continue to go, or having started crochet, foster, or heur to begin with. Given the number of different options the sox really had for an opener, there are at least 6-7 different gameplans they couldve take that wouldve been better than the one they went with.  
 

And guess what, that 72% number doesnt mean anything since we lost.  It also doesnt take into account we burned most of our bullpen just to get there...in the 4th freaking inning.   And whats more is that we couldve still had that exact same probability to win at that point had he left dunning in, and our bullpen horses to close the game out.  There was no guarantee that dunning was going to give up runs.  In fact, in that situation, first and third with 2 outs, there is a 72% chance no runs will score.  So stop acting like we achieved a 72% win probability because rickey took dunning out.  Thats a wild leap in logic there.  
 

what we saw yesterday was an absolute schooling by a real manager against an absolutely inept one.  One didnt panic when his starter got into trouble. One panicked at every bit of contact the other team made.

Edited October 2, 2020 by ChiSox1917

[jaws7575]

How do you know that they score on Dunning in the first inning??????  I would have rolled the dice with him. If you had no faith in him  then you should have let bummer  start and pitch a few innings?  why did he only pitch one inning.  Lets say Oakland did score one run on the first inning  did that mean the sox were doomed?  Oakland was in the same situation and they did not panic like the sox did with their staff.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

12 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Omg, so calling someone panicked or wrong is an insult to you?  How soft are you?  In 3 paragraphs you got so worked up over 4 sentences.  Somethings wrong with you bro.  

We just got bounced from the playoffs because our manager managed scared.

Ive already said what i would have done, or how you smartly implement an opener.  If your plan is to go with an opener, you use a reliever, not a guy that can eat 3-5 innings.  
 

one of 2 things should have been done, either  letting dunning continue to go, or having started crochet, foster, or heur to begin with. Given the number of different options the sox really had for an opener, there are at least 6-7 different gameplans they couldve take. That wouldve been better than the one they went with.  
 

And guess what, that 72% number doesnt mean anything since we lost, and we couldve still had that exact same probability to win at that point had he left dunning in.  There was no guarantee that dunning was going to give up runs.  In fact, in that situation, first and third with 2 outs, there is a 72% chance no runs will score.  So stop acting like we achieved a 72% win probability because rickey took dunning out.  Thats a wild leap in logic there.  

All i know is that was the win probability in the bottom of the 4th so we survived that huge mistake of taking Dunning out and going with the game plan. That win percent went way down and came way up for the A's because our really good pitchers weren't really good and the game plan got severely altered with the Crochet injury. How you blame those guys pitching bad or the Crochet injury on how Dunning was used I haven't got a clue. Maybe that's the bigger giant leap in logic.

Maybe you just have no idea how to be nice. Someone else saif you were grumpy and SSK2 scolded you also for how you presented your argument. Doesn't mean I'm soft at all just that I prefer less crazy ways to express yourself.

Edited October 2, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[ChiSox1917]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

All i know is that was the win probability in the bottom of the 4th so we survived that huge mistake of taking Dunning out and going with the game plan. That win percent went way down and came way up for the A's because our really good pitchers weren't really good and the game plan got severely altered with the Crochet injury. How you blame those guys pitching bad or the Crochet injury on how Dunning was used I haven't got a clue. Maybe that's the bigger giant leap in logic.

on any given day, expecting 9 pitchers to all be on their stuff at the same time is a failing strategy.  Thats why starters exist.  So you have someone that can get you through the majority of the game minimizing damage.  Then you only need to rely on 1-3 other guys.
 

and rodon, who gave up 2 runs looking like absolute crap, has looked like absolute crap all year. Not sure id put him in the “really good guys” category.  
 

a better manager would have not needed to use rodon yesterday 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 minutes ago, jaws7575 said:

How do you know that they score on Dunning in the first inning??????  I would have rolled the dice with him. If you had no faith in him  then you should have let bummer  start and pitch a few innings?  why did he only pitch one inning.  Lets say Oakland did score one run on the first inning  did that mean the sox were doomed?  Oakland was in the same situation and they did not panic like the sox did with their staff.

 

No one knows if he gets scored on or if he gets out of it. Its not a matter of having faith in him . Mike Fiers has much more experience pitching then Dunning and the Sox roughed him up for 2 innings and only had one run to show for it. If you think its panic nothing I can say will change your mind. And you can't say the game would've gone differently  either better or worse if they had left him in or started the game with someone else. All i know was that I liked having a 3-0 lead until the 4th inning. DId you not like that ?

[jaws7575]

One I putting that kind of pressure on crochet is  wrong. How many innings did he pitch this year 3-or 4 ? not much more.  I was not counting on him to be our savior.  The odds were in favor of Dunning 1st and third two outs the  house money is with the pitcher. How do we know he does not get out of that jam. If he did he stars the second with the 5th , 6th  and 7th hitters not exactly sluggers. He might at least giving the sox two good innings. The thing is we will never know-he was not giving the chance. The fifth hitter in the lineup was not exactly Ted Williams

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

26 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

on any given day, expecting 9 pitchers to all be on their stuff at the same time is a failing strategy.  Thats why starters exist.  So you have someone that can get you through the majority of the game minimizing damage.  Then you only need to rely on 1-3 other guys.
 

and rodon, who gave up 2 runs looking like absolute crap, has looked like absolute crap all year. Not sure id put him in the “really good guys” category.  
 

a better manager would have not needed to use rodon yesterday 

I never put Rodon in the really good guys category. I put Heuer, Marshall Bummer Crochet and Foster there. No one expects they all do well but you also don't expect 3 of your top guys to be as bad as they were and also dont expect another one of your top guys to get hurt.

The Sox used 9 pitchers Oakland used 8 even though their starter went 2 shaky innings and they didn't have one of their best injured.

The difference between who won and lost was 9 walks by our guys and 3 by theirs, not how long Dunning pitched.

Edited October 2, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[jaws7575]

I agree I do not know what would have happened but the point is he was never given the chance. The game turns on a dime if he goes two  innings or so  before getting pulled out. He might have given up a 3 run home run and still should have not doomed the sox.  I was Happy with a 3-0 lead but I was worried-I had bad vibes that we were headed into troubled waters.  How Did Rodon have a longer leash than Dunning? Why was Rodon in the game at that point?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

22 minutes ago, jaws7575 said:

One I putting that kind of pressure on crochet is  wrong. How many innings did he pitch this year 3-or 4 ? not much more.  I was not counting on him to be our savior.  The odds were in favor of Dunning 1st and third two outs the  house money is with the pitcher. How do we know he does not get out of that jam. If he did he stars the second with the 5th , 6th  and 7th hitters not exactly sluggers. He might at least giving the sox two good innings. The thing is we will never know-he was not giving the chance. The fifth hitter in the lineup was not exactly Ted Williams

Practically everyone on this board wanted Crochet to pitch. He was held out of the 1st 2 games for this very moment. If that's unfair I don't know what to tell you. He's on the team, he had pitched very well and he struck out the 1st 2 guys he pitched to .Its very unfortunate he wasn't feeling right. Right or wrong he was being counted on for about 6 outs .

[ChiSox1917]

31 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

All i know was that I liked having a 3-0 lead until the 4th inning. DId you not like that ?

Is there a prize for winning the first 4 innings?  Its the equivalent of sprinting the first mile of a marathon and being glad youre in first. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Omg, so calling someone panicked or wrong is an insult to you?  How soft are you?  In 3 paragraphs you got so worked up over 4 sentences.  Somethings wrong with you bro.  

 

Even after getting called for it, you STILL can't make an intelligent point, and have to substitute an insult in. Forget soft, work on your baseball knowledge instead and come back when you can make an actual coherent point.

[jaws7575]

I did not mind seeing him pitch but I do not think the whole season should have been put on the shoulders of a guy with very limited  experience. I just dont agree with wasting most of your pitching staff before half the game is over. Why was bummer only allowed one  inning? That is one hell of a small pitch  count really. Devils advocate why why was Rodon put on the team ahead of Lopez.  I had no faith in Rodon I could not even watch when he was on the mound . At least Lopez had a few good moments here and there and had experience going more than one inning.. Did you really think you were going to get more than one good inning out of Rodon at the most. That was pouring gasoline onto the fire that was a gift to Oakland.

[Balta1701]

22 minutes ago, jaws7575 said:

I did not mind seeing him pitch but I do not think the whole season should have been put on the shoulders of a guy with very limited  experience. I just dont agree with wasting most of your pitching staff before half the game is over. Why was bummer only allowed one  inning? That is one hell of a small pitch  count really. Devils advocate why why was Rodon put on the team ahead of Lopez.  I had no faith in Rodon I could not even watch when he was on the mound . At least Lopez had a few good moments here and there and had experience going more than one inning.. Did you really think you were going to get more than one good inning out of Rodon at the most. That was pouring gasoline onto the fire that was a gift to Oakland.

Ironically, our options at the time were Dunning (Very limited experience), Cease (Very limited Experience), Crochet (Very Limited experience) or Rodon (ugh). 

It's possible Dunning could have worked out. The team rolled the dice on a bullpen game, that was the choice they made coming into the game, probably in fact it's the choice they had made coming into the series, and if that's what they said they were going to do they needed to follow that decision. I am not certain I would have made the same decision coming into the game, but there is no obvious right answer here.

Best criticism I have of yesterday is why Rodon was on the roster and not Detweiler. He's not a special player, but I'd have had way more confidence going to him in the 4th and 5th innings of yesterday's game than Rodon.

[JuliusO1274]

18 hours ago, joesaiditstrue said:

probably because Dunning has gotten lit up like a Christmas tree in his last few outings, and if you take that into account along with the fact that he was throwing balls right over the middle of the plate yesterday and the As were all over him, RR probably thought he had the arms available to at least make it through the whole game with a few guys.  sadly Marshall, Heuer, and Foster all pissed themselves and Crochet blew out his elbow

 

He he has never got lit up. His last outing was his worst because his lack of control, the game before that wasn't as bad as his numbers looked, 4 IP 4 ER most damage coming from a 3 run homer from Ramirez. The outing before those two was 7 IP 3 H 1 ER against the Twins.

[JuliusO1274]

10 hours ago, fathom said:

If he left Dunning in to face Olson, their best power guy, and gives up a 3 run homer, almost all of us would have gone ballistic.

Wrong, no one was expecting Dunning to get pulled in the first if a couple guys got on. If anyone were to go ballistic over the fact that Dunning wasn't pulled after allowing a couple guys on they should have been going ballistic about Dunning getting the start in the first place.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, JuliusO1274 said:

Wrong, no one was expecting Dunning to get pulled in the first if a couple guys got on. If anyone were to go ballistic over the fact that Dunning wasn't pulled after allowing a couple guys on they should have been going ballistic about Dunning getting the start in the first place.

I will bet you that the people who knew that would happen included "Ricky Renteria, Don Cooper, Rick Hahn, Garret Crochet, and Dane Dunning". I would bet an awful lot that Dunning knew he was out if 2 men got on.