Why was Dunning pulled after 15 pitches?

[A-Train to 35th]

If the plan was to go with Dunning and then Crochet, at least stick with Dunning until he gives up a run.  By warming up Crochet after a man reached base that totally distracted and ruined any confidence Dunning had, and to a further extent it effected the offense confidence.  But let's dig deeper into "this plan".

1. Why would you start a rookie who had only been with the team since the end of August in a deciding game 3.  Detwiler would have been a better option if they still had that option, so would Gio, or Dylan Cease anyone except a rookie that came up at the end of August.

2. Why would you follow up and inexperienced rookie with another inexperienced rookie straight out of college in a deciding game 3.

3. Why would you start Cease the day before effectively letting the A's know they should prepare for Dunning.

I'll stop there, we all know the other strange decisions that followed Crochet's injury or was that how they drew up the plan the night before.

Let's just hope the teams overuse of Crochet the last couple of weeks doesn't end up with TJ surgery.

The future is bright, make sure to bring your shades to the next game we are allowed in.

[JuliusO1274]

Edit- Never mind 

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by JuliusO1274
Point was already made

[JuliusO1274]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I will bet you that the people who knew that would happen included "Ricky Renteria, Don Cooper, Rick Hahn, Garret Crochet, and Dane Dunning". I would bet an awful lot that Dunning knew he was out if 2 men got on.

Not relevant. I was responding to a comment that said fans would go ballistic if Dunning wasn't pulled and gave up a 3 run homer in the 1st. 

[ChiSox59]

20 hours ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

He HAD to do it to meet the 3 batter minimum. Period. 

No. He could have had Rodon actually face the batter. 

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

No. He could have had Rodon actually face the batter. 

Would you trust Carlos Rodon to pitch to a guy with runners on 2nd and 3rd after he put them there, with how bad he looked?

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Would you trust Carlos Rodon to pitch to a guy with runners on 2nd and 3rd after he put them there, with how bad he looked?

The only thing I could think of actually having Rodon pitch to him was the intentional unintentional walk. But for all we know Hard Carl might have thrown one to the backstop. The walk was Renteria’s best move of the day.

[Dominikk85]

On 10/3/2020 at 2:17 AM, JuliusO1274 said:

Not relevant. I was responding to a comment that said fans would go ballistic if Dunning wasn't pulled and gave up a 3 run homer in the 1st. 

Yeah, all year long people said Ricky is not pulling guys fast enough and pitching bad guys (which of course is related to only having 2 starters) and then he does it and brings one of the best relievers and people don't like it either.

Had dunning given up a 3 run homer everyone would have blown up.

Ricky made mistakes but this game he did everything right:

-pulled dunning before he could blow up

-followed with a dominant reliever

-brought in rodon with bases empty and two out which is the perfect spot as he doesn't have to complete 3 if he makes an out and also doesn't give up immediate runs if he gets hit

-pitched all the good relievers 

Really just a ton of things went wrong as crochet got hurt and lots of usually good guys didn't get it done. The Padres actually used the same strategy and won a shutout.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Dominikk85

[JuliusO1274]

15 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Yeah, all year long people said Ricky is not pulling guys fast enough and pitching bad guys (which of course is related to only having 2 starters) and then he does it and brings one of the best relievers and people don't like it either.

Had dunning given up a 3 run homer everyone would have blown up.

Ricky made mistakes but this game he did everything right:

-pulled dunning before he could blow up

-followed with a dominant reliever

-brought in rodon with bases empty and two out which is the perfect spot as he doesn't have to complete 3 if he makes an out and also doesn't give up immediate runs if he gets hit

-pitched all the good relievers 

Really just a ton of things went wrong as crochet got hurt and lots of usually good guys didn't get it done. The Padres actually used the same strategy and won a shutout.

As soon as he pulled Dunning in 1st it he couldn't offered to apply that same short leash to our best bullpen arms, especially after Crochet got injured. If it is a bullpen game he should expect our best arms like Bummer to get at least 2 IP and not pull him because a few guys get on. We went through our starter and 3 best bullpen arms before the game was halfway over.

[GradMc]

Renteria was playing for his job by managing not to lose.

He lost the game.

And perhaps his job although with that owner I'm not betting the rent on it.

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 10/2/2020 at 5:08 PM, A-Train to 35th said:

If the plan was to go with Dunning and then Crochet, at least stick with Dunning until he gives up a run.  By warming up Crochet after a man reached base that totally distracted and ruined any confidence Dunning had, and to a further extent it effected the offense confidence.  But let's dig deeper into "this plan".

1. Why would you start a rookie who had only been with the team since the end of August in a deciding game 3.  Detwiler would have been a better option if they still had that option, so would Gio, or Dylan Cease anyone except a rookie that came up at the end of August.

2. Why would you follow up and inexperienced rookie with another inexperienced rookie straight out of college in a deciding game 3.

3. Why would you start Cease the day before effectively letting the A's know they should prepare for Dunning.

I'll stop there, we all know the other strange decisions that followed Crochet's injury or was that how they drew up the plan the night before.

Let's just hope the teams overuse of Crochet the last couple of weeks doesn't end up with TJ surgery.

The future is bright, make sure to bring your shades to the next game we are allowed in.

So in No.1 you ,mention 3 pitchers and all 3 weren't available. Detwiler was replaced by Rodon as you noted so bringing him up makes no sense. Gio was injured and didn't make the playoff roster. Cease had pitched in relief the day before. Lopez didn't make the playoff roster. No one wanted Rodon to pitch let alone start. How you can say Dunning was distracted and or confidence ruined is pure speculation.He was fully aware that a shaky start could get him an early hook. You weren't there. You weren't inside his head and there's no way you can say it had anything to do with the offense. If the offense was effected how in the heck does it jump out to a 3-0 lead ? Robert looked very effected hitting that 487 ft. HR and I saw Dunning smiling in the dugout  looking pretty damn happy to see that HR. These arguments are ridiculous.

2. Why would Crochet follow him up? The game plan is your answer . Start a RH pitcher follow him up him a LH hopefully negating the LH power of the A's. No one cared if Crochet was an inexperienced rookie straight out of college. Everyone was excited to see him pitch just as they were in his earlier games. Were you complaining at any point on this board about him being on the team or pitching when he was throwing 101/102 MPH in his previous games or questioning why he was on the team ? If the answer to that is no , then questioning it now is pure unadulterated 100% hindsight . It is the whole reason he didn't pitch in the 1st 2 games.

Crochet was not overused. He hadn't pitched in the 1st 2 games because they had plans for him in this game. He pitched 6 innings in the regular season. He pitched in Schaumburg which probably is a lot less stressful than pitching in minor league games. If you are going to follow the RH Dunning with LH's your choices are Bummer , Crochet, Rodon and Fry.  Pick one besides Crochet the Sox were prepared to pitch right after Dunning. You draft guys to use them . If all the coaches thought he was good enough to play in the big leagues  then he should be in the big leagues. He wanted to help the Sox in the playoffs that you can be sure of. He hadn't allowed a run in his previous 6 innings and struck out 2 of 2 once he came in the game. The results speak for themselves.

The only possible thing you could say is to start Foster or Heuer all rookies with less experience starting then Dunning who all would've been on equally short leashes. Anyone who started knew what was at stake and the possibilities of an early exit . Destroyed confidence ? A distraction , effecting the offense ? Please this is the weakest sauce ever and I don't care what Frank Thomas thinks.

Edited October 5, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

14 hours ago, GradMc said:

Renteria was playing for his job by managing not to lose.

He lost the game.

And perhaps his job although with that owner I'm not betting the rent on it.

 

 

Excuse me don't you manage every game not to lose ? I've never heard of a manager managing to purposely lose , have you ? If you actually mean something different like perhaps managing to win, how is that any different in a do or die game you must not lose , you must win. The do or die nature of the game means your best possible guys on the field and if they don't do the job then you lose. Too many of the Sox best guys either on the mound or in the lineup failed to perform. Blame the players . I have never seen so many blame the manager for lack of player performance . 9 walks ! How many teams win giving up 7 walks from their best pitchers ? Not counting the 2 Rodon gave up.

[jaws7575]

good post by a-train our manager made poor pitching decisions in this game and hit the panic button way to soon-that affected the whole team. I have never seen a starting pitcher pulled out of a game  in the first inning  when healthy  with 15 pitches thrown and 2 outs-sorry I would have given Dunning the chance. Worse case  they score a couple of runs  are the sox doomed to lose 2-0? I am not saying they would have won but they should have given the man a chance.

[jaws7575]

Yes the sox did have  a 3-0 lead  but  I never felt at ease with what the manager was doing. I agree with some people he was managing  not to lose. I hate when football coaches do that-they lose. It is way easy to second guess  but I just feel that Dunning was pulled to soon. I Have seen pitchers struggle in the first inning and then settle down , he did have two outs and it is not fair to say he would have been scored upon. We will never know and that is what bothers me a little. Dunning stays in  and might get shelled or might get thru the easy second inning lineup. Does that change the final score who knows.

Edited October 6, 2020 by jaws7575

[Bob Sacamano]

4 hours ago, jaws7575 said:

good post by a-train our manager made poor pitching decisions in this game and hit the panic button way to soon-that affected the whole team. I have never seen a starting pitcher pulled out of a game  in the first inning  when healthy  with 15 pitches thrown and 2 outs-sorry I would have given Dunning the chance. Worse case  they score a couple of runs  are the sox doomed to lose 2-0? I am not saying they would have won but they should have given the man a chance.

People would say this if he left him in and gave up a 3-run bomb to Olson though.

[Dominikk85]

People here would have gone nuts if he had given up a 3 run bomb. 

[yesterday333]

Can we stop with the panic button stuff? It was the plan. My guess is the team knew the plan. Nobody was panicking. You can argue that you don’t like the plan but this was not being scared. I didn’t like the plan but I knew it was coming. It didn’t work. But it is not because of in game decisions. Knowing the kind of manager RR is, this probably wasn’t even his plan. He was just following it.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, yesterday333 said:

Can we stop with the panic button stuff? It was the plan. My guess is the team knew the plan. Nobody was panicking. You can argue that you don’t like the plan but this was not being scared. I didn’t like the plan but I knew it was coming. It didn’t work. But it is not because of in game decisions. Knowing the kind of manager RR is, this probably wasn’t even his plan. He was just following it.

In order for something like this to work, the entire team has to be in on it.  To have relievers in the mind set to be ready in the early innings the team had to be in on it, otherwise these guys wouldn't have been ready to work.  There is no doubt in my mind that Dunning went out there knowing that as soon as he got into trouble, he was done, and everyone from Crochet down the line knew they could be in the game at literally any time.

And if people still think this is outrageous, look no further than the San Diego wild card series.  They used 26 pitchers to cover 27 innings.  Their starters went a total of 6 innings in the three games combined.  Their starters went 2.1, 2 and 1.2.  This strategy can and does work.  The primary reason it failed for the Sox was that Crochet got hurt, and then the guys they were hoping could suck up innings couldn't find the strike zone in Rodon and Foster.  The Padres relievers made it work, while the Sox didn't.  That doesn't make the strategy invalid.

[A-Train to 35th]

On 10/5/2020 at 5:48 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So in No.1 you ,mention 3 pitchers and all 3 weren't available. Detwiler was replaced by Rodon as you noted so bringing him up makes no sense. Gio was injured and didn't make the playoff roster. Cease had pitched in relief the day before. Lopez didn't make the playoff roster. No one wanted Rodon to pitch let alone start. How you can say Dunning was distracted and or confidence ruined is pure speculation.He was fully aware that a shaky start could get him an early hook. You weren't there. You weren't inside his head and there's no way you can say it had anything to do with the offense. If the offense was effected how in the heck does it jump out to a 3-0 lead ? Robert looked very effected hitting that 487 ft. HR and I saw Dunning smiling in the dugout  looking pretty damn happy to see that HR. These arguments are ridiculous.

2. Why would Crochet follow him up? The game plan is your answer . Start a RH pitcher follow him up him a LH hopefully negating the LH power of the A's. No one cared if Crochet was an inexperienced rookie straight out of college. Everyone was excited to see him pitch just as they were in his earlier games. Were you complaining at any point on this board about him being on the team or pitching when he was throwing 101/102 MPH in his previous games or questioning why he was on the team ? If the answer to that is no , then questioning it now is pure unadulterated 100% hindsight . It is the whole reason he didn't pitch in the 1st 2 games.

Crochet was not overused. He hadn't pitched in the 1st 2 games because they had plans for him in this game. He pitched 6 innings in the regular season. He pitched in Schaumburg which probably is a lot less stressful than pitching in minor league games. If you are going to follow the RH Dunning with LH's your choices are Bummer , Crochet, Rodon and Fry.  Pick one besides Crochet the Sox were prepared to pitch right after Dunning. You draft guys to use them . If all the coaches thought he was good enough to play in the big leagues  then he should be in the big leagues. He wanted to help the Sox in the playoffs that you can be sure of. He hadn't allowed a run in his previous 6 innings and struck out 2 of 2 once he came in the game. The results speak for themselves.

The only possible thing you could say is to start Foster or Heuer all rookies with less experience starting then Dunning who all would've been on equally short leashes. Anyone who started knew what was at stake and the possibilities of an early exit . Destroyed confidence ? A distraction , effecting the offense ? Please this is the weakest sauce ever and I don't care what Frank Thomas thinks.

1. I would have started Cease and not used him the day before and followed him up with Dunning if ineffective.

2. I would have saved Crochet for the middle innings or with 2 out in an inning and would not have brought 2 rookies in to start a game 3 clincher.

3. Starting 2 rookies in a high leverage situation not to mention a game 3 clincher is ridiculous planning on the Manager and the Management team.

4. Warming up pitchers in the first inning is most certainly a distraction to the starter even if I'm not in his head, and don't take this  personal, but I care more about what Frank Thomas has to say than you. Put some Frank's sauce on that!

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

16 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

1. I would have started Cease and not used him the day before and followed him up with Dunning if ineffective.

2. I would have saved Crochet for the middle innings or with 2 out in an inning and would not have brought 2 rookies in to start a game 3 clincher.

3. Starting 2 rookies in a high leverage situation not to mention a game 3 clincher is ridiculous planning on the Manager and the Management team.

4. Warming up pitchers in the first inning is most certainly a distraction to the starter even if I'm not in his head, and don't take this  personal, but I care more about what Frank Thomas has to say than you. Put some Frank's sauce on that!

Umm if you hadn't noticed the Sox have a whole lot of rookie pitchers this year . Dunning , Crochet , Foster, Heuer . They all pitched in that game. The whole game was a high leverage situation . What are you missing here ? The Sox pitched their best pitchers and most of them sucked or got injured. That has nothing to do with when they were brought in the game. They all knew what was at stake. How can you even say you would have saved Crochet for the middle innings if you have no idea how the game would have progressed if the Sox had started Cease. That's impossible to say unless you had a dream where Cease started and pitched 5 innings and the Sox were ahead in your dream.

So you're going to start a right hander and follow him up with another righty ? Also makes no sense . When the A's know your starter is RH they put as many lefties in their lineup as possible higher up in the order. By bringing in another RH  you aren't forcing the A's into a bad situation. You are playing right into their hands . Almost always in these types of games if a RH starts he is followed by a lefty. If a lefty starts he is followed by a righty.

 I don't care if you learn from me or Frank Thomas but you obviously need to learn more about the game .

Edited October 19, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[ChiSoxFanMike]

I’m still annoyed about game 3 but realistically, how much farther would the Sox have gone had they won that game? I’m not sure if they would’ve beaten Houston.

[Kyyle23]

2 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

I’m still annoyed about game 3 but realistically, how much farther would the Sox have gone had they won that game? I’m not sure if they would’ve beaten Houston.

Who cares who they may or may not have beaten?  You want them to play as many as possible, playoffs are a crapshoot and crazy things happen