AJ Hinch: does it matter to you that he cheated?

[MeanJoeCrede]

1 minute ago, Orlando said:

I'm certain that logic = no Bauer.

Sox have never spent on a pitcher on Bauer's level especially at #1 in the FA market. Hinch or no Hinch, that ain't happening. Also Bauer said he'd even listen to the Astros if they wanted him.

Like Hahn said yesterday, alot of the Sox never haves have been thrown out the window lately.

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, jamesdiego said:

Ozzie didn’t just quit on the team the last two days.  That guy was creating drama in the media most of that year.  It was an absolute shit show of a managerial job that year with his out of control ego running rampant needing to create drama all the time.  
 

I think all teams (besides the Marlins) looked at that season and said “no thanks” for us.  
 

Albert Belle had his cork bat incident against us of all teams.  And then we signed him to a big contract.   Did any of the old timers who have a problem with Hinch also had a problem with Belle with his corked bat?

 

When the Astros cheating happened at the time I would definitely have said F those guys and would have never wanted any of them to be with the organization   But when Springers name had popped up for free agent possibilities I didn’t bat an eye   I definitely would want him   
 

Do people who don’t want Hinch at all costs also absolutely don’t want Springer?  
 

As others said in a perfect world we would hire a guy with an unblemished record   But there’s many imperfect people in this world.   And many have done far worse offenses.

I have a far bigger issue with the Sox having Daryl Boston as a coach after reading that long article last year giving details on a rape he was accused of in the 90’s.  There was no trial but hearing her story had me pretty convinced, and was gut wrenching learning her end.  

 

I've never heard about this.  Is there something out there about it?

[SonofaRoache]

10 minutes ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

A quality 2 or 3 arm is something Sox can get with or without Hinch. A quality 1 or maybe 2 is what we need. Hiring Hinch takes at least 1 option off the table and who knows how many others won't want to play for him. Still don't think Sox pay for Springer regardless of who the manager is, and having an in with Springer isn't as important as upgrading the top of the Sox rotation.

There are no quality one's on the open market that we would sign for more than one year, with or without Hinch. I'm not concerned about players not wanting to play for Hinch because our core is set anyway. He is a top 3 manager in baseball which would also upgrade our results. I think there is a better chance we sign Springer to a 4 year deal than signing Bauer. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

4 minutes ago, Buehrle5687 said:

I'm not totally against Hinch, but every manager/potential manager should be frothing at the mouth for this job.  Is Hinch really the best option?  Over Bochy if we could get him? 

Bochy is outdated.

[Orlando]

Just now, MeanJoeCrede said:

Like Hahn said yesterday, alot of the Sox never haves have been thrown out the window lately.

I agree with that but with Bauer ill believe it when I see it. Especially in a pandemic.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

2 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

There are no quality one's on the open market that we would sign for more than one year, with or without Hinch. I'm not concerned about players not wanting to play for Hinch because our core is set anyway. He is a top 3 manager in baseball which would also upgrade our results. I think there is a better chance we sign Springer to a 4 year deal than signing Bauer. 

I'd flipping loooove Springer.

[SonofaRoache]

10 minutes ago, Buehrle5687 said:

I'm not totally against Hinch, but every manager/potential manager should be frothing at the mouth for this job.  Is Hinch really the best option?  Over Bochy if we could get him? 

Hinch was a top 5 manager in baseball. So yes, he is probably the best option. 

[TaylorStSox]

I think an ace impacts a team more than the manager. I also believe MLB manager is the least significant coaching position in all of the major sports - although I do get a kick out of the overreaction every time a manager puts out the Sunday Lineup. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, SonofaRoache said:

Hinch was a top 5 manager in baseball. So yes, he is probably the best option. 

How do we know this to be the truth? Without cheating, his teams sucked ass. With cheating, his teams did well.

 

How can you trust that he has bona fide abilities as a manager? Again, he had an anemic .420 winning % without cheating. Even Robin Fvkcing Ventura had a .463 winning % as a manager.

[Quin]

28 minutes ago, jamesdiego said:

Ozzie didn’t just quit on the team the last two days.  That guy was creating drama in the media most of that year.  It was an absolute shit show of a managerial job that year with his out of control ego running rampant needing to create drama all the time.  
 

I think all teams (besides the Marlins) looked at that season and said “no thanks” for us.  
 

Albert Belle had his cork bat incident against us of all teams.  And then we signed him to a big contract.   Did any of the old timers who have a problem with Hinch also had a problem with Belle with his corked bat?

 

When the Astros cheating happened at the time I would definitely have said F those guys and would have never wanted any of them to be with the organization   But when Springers name had popped up for free agent possibilities I didn’t bat an eye   I definitely would want him   
 

Do people who don’t want Hinch at all costs also absolutely don’t want Springer?  
 

As others said in a perfect world we would hire a guy with an unblemished record   But there’s many imperfect people in this world.   And many have done far worse offenses.

I have a far bigger issue with the Sox having Daryl Boston as a coach after reading that long article last year giving details on a rape he was accused of in the 90’s.  There was no trial but hearing her story had me pretty convinced, and was gut wrenching learning her end.  

 

Hold up.

What?

[bmags]

23 minutes ago, Orlando said:

I'm certain that logic = no Bauer.

Sox have never spent on a pitcher on Bauer's level especially at #1 in the FA market. Hinch or no Hinch, that ain't happening. Also Bauer said he'd even listen to the Astros if they wanted him.

This where I'm at. Saying Hinch means no bauer is a weird exercise. If sox are willing to pay highest amount to bauer, they'll land him - hinch or not. Bauer is clearly viewing FA as validation of his work.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

Hold up.

What?

Came out last winter, then DB dropped out of soxfest.

[oneofthemikes]

17 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

There are no quality one's on the open market that we would sign for more than one year

That isn't necessarily accurate. Bauer said the following in September:

"Again, I think it comes back to I just want a chance to win every year. I want to be in a situation where I feel valued and I have the chance to conduct my career the way I want to conduct it. So, pitch every fourth day, and stuff like that. I want to challenge myself and have a chance to do those things. So if there’s a situation where it presents itself where it is a four-year or five-year deal, and I feel confident that’s going to be a situation that’s good for me, I would consider it. I do think that in order to do the things that I want to do, I think I’m going to have to take on a little more risk than normal in those long-term contracts. …I’m not afraid of the one-year deals. I’m not afraid of the longer deals. It’s just going to be a case-by-case basis, and we’ll see what the situations look like."

His whole MO is that he wants to be in position to win every year. The Sox are able to offer that as well as anyone right now because of the core they've built and the contracts that they have in place.

[Quin]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

Came out last winter, then DB dropped out of soxfest.

Article for those interested:
 

https://slate.com/culture/2020/01/mets-rape-accusation-spring-training-1991.html

[SonofaRoache]

13 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

How do we know this to be the truth? Without cheating, his teams sucked ass. With cheating, his teams did well.

 

How can you trust that he has bona fide abilities as a manager? Again, he had an anemic .420 winning % without cheating. Even Robin Fvkcing Ventura had a .463 winning % as a manager.

Well because he still made smart managerial decisions with his pitching staff, lineups, hit and runs, etc in big games. 

[Jose Abreu]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

Came out last winter, then DB dropped out of soxfest.

Now this is something of which people should be asking, "how do I explain this to my kids?"

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, SonofaRoache said:

Well because he still made smart managerial decisions with his pitching staff, lineups, hit and runs, etc in big games. 

Perhaps. But how do we know his teams would have been good without the cheating?

We DO know that Hinch has a sh!tty .420 win % without cheating.

[Timmy U]

4 minutes ago, Quin said:

Article for those interested:
 

https://slate.com/culture/2020/01/mets-rape-accusation-spring-training-1991.html

Good lord.  How does he still have a job???

[SonofaRoache]

13 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Perhaps. But how do we know his teams would have been good without the cheating?

We DO know that Hinch has a sh!tty .420 win % without cheating.

We look at a manger from a tactical perspective. If a manager has a really good roster, that will determine most of the wins. A guy who is good at his job doesn't lose games because of poor lineup construction and in game managing. We will have the talent to win 95 to 100 games , we need a smart manager to keep it that way. The Astros have talent, which is why they are in the ALCS again, but good managers don't lose you games. 

[oneofthemikes]

8 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Perhaps. But how do we know his teams would have been good without the cheating?

We DO know that Hinch has a sh!tty .420 win % without cheating.

Those Diamondbacks teams weren't exactly Murderer's Row lineups and inheriting a "meh" team and then not winning with them doesn't paint a full picture either.

Also, that was 2009-2010. After that job he went to San Diego and was VP of Scouting for 4 years before getting another managerial job. Not to mention the other seasons in Houston that occurred before the 2017 trash can season. Not excusing the scandal at all, but citing a .420 win percentage is a bit of a strawman. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

We look at a manger from a tactical perspective. If a manager has a really good roster, that will determine most of the wins. A guy who is good at his job doesn't lose games because of poor lineup construction and in game managing. We will have the talent to win 95 to 100 games , we need a smart manager to keep it that way. The Astros have talent, which is why they are in the ALCS again, but good managers don't lose you games. 

Yes, and every decision made was made with the foreknowledge that his offenses were likely to have a leg up on the opposition. That makes pinch hitting, pitching changes, and other tactical decisions laughably easy. Kinda like playing checkers against a 7 year old in the "slow group," while you're an adult with decades of experience. IOW, you already know what's coming, and you can easily defeat the child at the game.

In the same way, Hinch knew he had an advantage that others did not. So, no, I don't accept the notion that he was a tactical genius. He had a fraudulently-obtained advantage.

[Two-Gun Pete]

5 minutes ago, oneofthemikes said:

Those Diamondbacks teams weren't exactly Murderer's Row lineups and inheriting a "meh" team and then not winning with them doesn't paint a full picture either.

 Also, that was 2009-2010. After that job he went to San Diego and was VP of Scouting for 4 years before getting another managerial job. Not to mention the other seasons in Houston that occurred before the 2017 trash can season. Not excusing the scandal at all, but citing a .420 win percentage is a bit of a strawman. 

To that I state that Robin Ventura had shitty rosters, and his win % was .463. I mean, Ventura had geniuses in his FO giving him James Shields and other luminaries.

And if Hinch was good at scouting, perhaps he can return to that. But his record as a manager has been in part obtained through fraud.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[Dick Allen]

You look at Hinch's background, he is an advanced metrics team's wet dream as a manager. That said, he did cheat, or at least as a leader, he didn't stop it. That's a problem. Apparently not big enough to make him a non candidate. 

[TaylorStSox]

7 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

We look at a manger from a tactical perspective. If a manager has a really good roster, that will determine most of the wins. A guy who is good at his job doesn't lose games because of poor lineup construction and in game managing. We will have the talent to win 95 to 100 games , we need a smart manager to keep it that way. The Astros have talent, which is why they are in the ALCS again, but good managers don't lose you games. 

We have the offensive talent to win 95 games. We need some starting pitching and some bullpen luck to actually do it. The pitching coach on next year's team will have a greater impact than the manager. 

[justBLAZE]

I think something needs to be said about the MLB investigation and giving immunity to the players was essentially MADE to throw Hinch under the bus.

I'm not defending him in the slightest but it was the players that cheated and got away with it!