Mazara and Right Field Thread

[southsider2k5]

Just now, The Hawk said:

  First of all, I said the American league from the beginning as we began to argue. I wanted to argue apples to apples. One of the reasons is that the AL is a DH league and the NL is not.  The NL happens to try and get more of its offensive production from its outfield positions than the AL does because the AL uses the DH for a lot of its power needs. The AL also has more older power hitters in it for that reason also which makes young power guys like Mazara a bit rare.

    You haven't proven anything that I've said as being false. Mazara is still in the top 25-33% of all major league right field power hitters. That quality makes him, to me an AVERAGE major league right fielder. YOu feel different? Fine. that is your opinion.

You have yet to post one single statistic that supports it.  Even your narrowly nitpicked counting stats proved you wrong.  100% wrong.

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Some people are still holding IBM stock too.  The breakout is coming!

This is more like holding White Star lines stock.

[RagahRagah]

1 hour ago, hi8is said:

@michelangelosmonkey and @RagahRagah- can you both keep it down please?

I’m trying to conserve all my energy for focusing on Nomar Mazara conversation. It’s fascinating!!!

To be fair I don't even know why I'm bothering to try so hard over a discussion of such a bad player.

[yesterday333]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You have yet to post one single statistic that supports it.  Even your narrowly nitpicked counting stats proved you wrong.  100% wrong.

He did provide his eye test which you can’t prove wrong even if your eyes tell you something different...

[The Hawk]

21 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you are looking for the 2016 to 2019 RF leaderboard by OPS, Nomar Mazara is 57th overall and 32nd if you narrow it to just the AL.

I didn't look up every year, but in 2019, Mazara, has a .786 OPS which would rank 13th over-all in baseball if he had enough ABs to qualify. Like someone said, you can pretty much prove or disprove anything in statistics using the same raw data.

In 2017 Mazara's OBP was 16th among all right fielders in baseball. It was .745.

Edited October 27, 2020 by The Hawk

[hi8is]

1 minute ago, RagahRagah said:

To be fair I don't even know why I'm bothering to try so hard over a discussion of such a bad player.

Good!

[RagahRagah]

1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

  First of all, I said the American league from the beginning as we began to argue. I wanted to argue apples to apples. One of the reasons is that the AL is a DH league and the NL is not.  The NL happens to try and get more of its offensive production from its outfield positions than the AL does because the AL uses the DH for a lot of its power needs. The AL also has more older power hitters in it for that reason also which makes young power guys like Mazara a bit rare.

    You haven't proven anything that I've said as being false. Mazara is still in the top 25-33% of all major league right field power hitters. That quality makes him, to me an AVERAGE major league right fielder. YOu feel different? Fine. that is your opinion.

It is not our burden to prove your position wrong, it is your burden to prove it RIGHT. You have failed to do that time after time. You said you didn't want to waste your time. After all these posts later you could have done all the research you possibly needed.

Edited October 27, 2020 by RagahRagah

[southsider2k5]

Just now, The Hawk said:

I didn't look up every year, but in 2019, Mazara, has a .786 OPS which would rank 13th over-all in baseball if he had enough ABs to qualify. Like someone said, you can pretty much prove or disprove anything in statistics using the same raw data.

What? You don't say.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

I didn't look up every year, but in 2019, Mazara, has a .786 OPS which would rank 13th over-all in baseball if he had enough ABs to qualify. Like someone said, you can pretty much prove or disprove anything in statistics using the same raw data.

13th overall in what?  The AL for RFs?

[ChiSoxFanMike]

Why are you guys arguing so much about a guy who probably won’t even be on the team next season?

[The Hawk]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

13th overall in what?  The AL for RFs?

No. Like I said, his OPS was .786 which if he had the required number of ABs to qualify for award criteria would have place him in 13th position. He had enough to qualify in 2017 and finished 16th over-all in all of baseball with a .745 OPS

[The Hawk]

4 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Why are you guys arguing so much about a guy who probably won’t even be on the team next season?

Good question. I just don't like to be insulted I guess:) My guess is that he'll still be around next year, though. He's still only 25 years old and has hit 80 major league home-runs. Not many hitters have come up at age 22 and done that in baseball.

[Ducksnort]

49 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Why are you guys arguing so much about a guy who probably won’t even be on the team next season?

Seriously, I click on a topic and get excited when it says "hot topic!" thinking there's a rumor or some kind of interesting discussion happening, and come to find it's just people b****ing to one another. Happened so many times.

[michelangelosmonkey]

2 hours ago, hi8is said:

@michelangelosmonkey and @RagahRagah- can you both keep it down please?

I’m trying to conserve all my energy for focusing on Nomar Mazara conversation. It’s fascinating!!!

Hi8is it is clear you are WAY over your head on this Mazara conversation thing.  Do you even PLAY poker? Fluff ranter.  

[yesterday333]

1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

I didn't look up every year, but in 2019, Mazara, has a .786 OPS which would rank 13th over-all in baseball if he had enough ABs to qualify. Like someone said, you can pretty much prove or disprove anything in statistics using the same raw data.

In 2017 Mazara's OBP was 16th among all right fielders in baseball. It was .745.

I just looked up RF 2019 with 350 plate appearances for OPS and nomar is rated 27... he just isn’t an average RF and I see no reason to not upgrade over him. 

[RagahRagah]

57 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

Good question. I just don't like to be insulted I guess:) My guess is that he'll still be around next year, though. He's still only 25 years old and has hit 80 major league home-runs. Not many hitters have come up at age 22 and done that in baseball.

When a spade is a spade, you call it a spade. But you don't call it a "weenie" because that serves no purpose (self-awareness might hit you yet).

[RagahRagah]

15 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Hi8is it is clear you are WAY over your head on this Mazara conversation thing.  Do you even PLAY poker? Fluff ranter.  

This is exactly how a childish person who has lost an argument acts. I mean... what was the point of this post actually? (Fluff :p)

Sorry that my analogy failed to make you understand my point because you don't know poker. I could explain further if you like, but I figure you're not exactly trying to learn anything here.

Edited October 27, 2020 by RagahRagah

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

No. Like I said, his OPS was .786 which if he had the required number of ABs to qualify for award criteria would have place him in 13th position. He had enough to qualify in 2017 and finished 16th over-all in all of baseball with a .745 OPS

If you’re talking all players at all positions none of this is remotely true.

[hi8is]

29 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Hi8is it is clear you are WAY over your head on this Mazara conversation thing.  Do you even PLAY poker? Fluff ranter.  

I’m only happy when Mazara rains, I’m only happy when he is running after an inside straight on the right field river while it’s cold outside.

Carry on.

[southsider2k5]

58 minutes ago, yesterday333 said:

I just looked up RF 2019 with 350 plate appearances for OPS and nomar is rated 27... he just isn’t an average RF and I see no reason to not upgrade over him. 

To recap:

Nomar Mazara is a good RF

No

But his batting average is .275

It isn't

But he hits a lot of homers
 

Not particularly

He plays good defense for a RF

HIs dWAR is terrible

But he gets lot of assists

Leury Garcia had more in a partial season

He hits a lot of homers if you only look at the years he didn't suck

Still no

He hits a lot of homers if you leave out his bad year, and eliminate half of the RFs in baseball

Uh, still no

But he had a good OPS one year, or maybe it was another year

Uh, not if you compare him to other similar players

[michelangelosmonkey]

43 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

This is exactly how a childish person who has lost an argument acts. I mean... what was the point of this post actually? (Fluff :p)

Sorry that my analogy failed to make you understand my point because you don't know poker. I could explain further if you like, but I figure you're not exactly trying to learn anything here.

Explain again, Dr Poker, how the eight of hearts would be a better right fielder than Mazara.  None is as smart as you but I'm working on my condescension game and its nice to learn at the foot of the master. 

   

[michelangelosmonkey]

29 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

To recap:

Nomar Mazara is a good RF

No

But his batting average is .275

It isn't

But he hits a lot of homers
 

Not particularly

He plays good defense for a RF

HIs dWAR is terrible

But he gets lot of assists

Leury Garcia had more in a partial season

He hits a lot of homers if you only look at the years he didn't suck

Still no

He hits a lot of homers if you leave out his bad year, and eliminate half of the RFs in baseball

Uh, still no

But he had a good OPS one year, or maybe it was another year

Uh, not if you compare him to other similar players

Ok I'm going to ride with The Hawk and General Custer to the Little Big Horn...it's a bright sunny day, I mean what could go wrong.  The case for Mazara is he would fit in so perfectly for us if he could harness his potential. Left handed power hitting RF.  If you squint a bit you can see 25 year old David Ortiz the hitter in Mazara...young players develop at different rates and Mazara was a highly thought of young player and has shown enough promise as a hitter in the majors from 21 to still have hope.   His defense improved dramatically in 2020 (SSS).  He won't cost a lot of money.  He and Engel can make a nice platoon.  Zips shows him as a 1 WAR player for 2021.   We have money to spend elsewhere and if he doesn't pan out...maybe Engel does...or Rutherford, Lugo, Adolfo.  2020 was the year where we hoped one of our outfield prospects would leap forward but then Covid.  We also hoped to see the true Mazara...but Covid.  Most of the reasons to take a chance on Mazara in 2020 remain with us today and we can't say he's garbage based on 149 at bats in a weird year.  The only thing that really changed is our contention window seems to have leapt forward and the idea of trotting out a bad position player seems wrong.  Leury gives us stable mediocracy, Mazara gives us a range of potential outcomes including a nice upside.  If you could get Benintendi for free would you try him?   I'm not sure Mazara and Benintendi aren't the same guy....but I'm not sure they aren't just left handed hitting Avi Garcias.  The largest point is...use scarce resources to try to get Bauer or the equivalent and hold off for a year hoping RF fixes itself.  Alright I'm tying myself to an anthill and pouring honey on my eyes.      

[hi8is]

Anyone else know of a list I can put @michelangelosmonkey on?

Posting Hall of Fame List?

Anything else, perhaps??

[southsider2k5]

20 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Ok I'm going to ride with The Hawk and General Custer to the Little Big Horn...it's a bright sunny day, I mean what could go wrong.  The case for Mazara is he would fit in so perfectly for us if he could harness his potential. Left handed power hitting RF.  If you squint a bit you can see 25 year old David Ortiz the hitter in Mazara...young players develop at different rates and Mazara was a highly thought of young player and has shown enough promise as a hitter in the majors from 21 to still have hope.   His defense improved dramatically in 2020 (SSS).  He won't cost a lot of money.  He and Engel can make a nice platoon.  Zips shows him as a 1 WAR player for 2021.   We have money to spend elsewhere and if he doesn't pan out...maybe Engel does...or Rutherford, Lugo, Adolfo.  2020 was the year where we hoped one of our outfield prospects would leap forward but then Covid.  We also hoped to see the true Mazara...but Covid.  Most of the reasons to take a chance on Mazara in 2020 remain with us today and we can't say he's garbage based on 149 at bats in a weird year.  The only thing that really changed is our contention window seems to have leapt forward and the idea of trotting out a bad position player seems wrong.  Leury gives us stable mediocracy, Mazara gives us a range of potential outcomes including a nice upside.  If you could get Benintendi for free would you try him?   I'm not sure Mazara and Benintendi aren't the same guy....but I'm not sure they aren't just left handed hitting Avi Garcias.  The largest point is...use scarce resources to try to get Bauer or the equivalent and hold off for a year hoping RF fixes itself.  Alright I'm tying myself to an anthill and pouring honey on my eyes.      

The bolded is the key.  I am OK with someone saying that they want to bet on Nomar's potential at the right price.  Granted that price is probably something like a million or two with no job promise coming into 2021, but that is an OK scenario for me.  But if you are argument is that is a good player already?  Nah.  Can't do it.  Nothing supports that as of today.

[michelangelosmonkey]

57 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The bolded is the key.  I am OK with someone saying that they want to bet on Nomar's potential at the right price.  Granted that price is probably something like a million or two with no job promise coming into 2021, but that is an OK scenario for me.  But if you are argument is that is a good player already?  Nah.  Can't do it.  Nothing supports that as of today.

I think this is where we get peace.  I kept looking at Avi and wanted to see a "good player" and after his big BABIP year I said..."see! see!" but it was hard to deny the math.  And then when he was a free agent I thought...sign him...potential...potential.  And then the Rays signed him and I said..."see! see!" smartest team in baseball wanted him.  And then he left them and went to the Brewers and I heard a Wisconsin radio guy saying Avi was going to lead the team in home runs...maybe he would hit forty.  And I shook my head and said...it's just an avillusion.  I SUSPECT the same with Mazara but...dag nabbit...Tim Anderson went from a .240 hitter to a .340 hitter a year ago and even with high BABIP this year was even better. Sometimes it happens...sometimes it's ok to hope.