Mazara and Right Field Thread

[RagahRagah]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is where I quit reading.

Yeah, that pretty much confirms lack of comprehension.

[hi8is]

23 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

Knock that shit off.

Wearing out a welcome?

[MikeKreevich]

I haven't been to this forum for a long time and the first thread I read, I encounter this sat pissing contest.

Name calling and nonsense.  Knock it off guys.

The White sox signed Mazarra to hit home runs and drive in runs.  He was a dismal failure of a signing.

He had a total of seven extra base hits in 42 games.  He hit the same number of home runs Yolmer Sanchez hit in his 16 games.

He should not and will not return.

[hi8is]

1 minute ago, MikeKreevich said:

I haven't been to this forum for a long time and the first thread I read, I encounter this sat pissing contest.

Name calling and nonsense.  Knock it off guys.

The White sox signed Mazarra to hit home runs and drive in runs.  He was a dismal failure of a signing.

He had a total of seven extra base hits in 42 games.  He hit the same number of home runs Yolmer Sanchez hit in his 16 games.

He should not and will not return.

Welcome to Soxtalk!!

[fathom]

Not sure what’s been more annoying, this thread or Mazara fouling off fastballs down the middle over the 3rd base dugout.

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, MikeKreevich said:

I haven't been to this forum for a long time and the first thread I read, I encounter this sat pissing contest.

Name calling and nonsense.  Knock it off guys.

The White sox signed Mazarra to hit home runs and drive in runs.  He was a dismal failure of a signing.

He had a total of seven extra base hits in 42 games.  He hit the same number of home runs Yolmer Sanchez hit in his 16 games.

He should not and will not return.

We traded for him not signed him, the 46th overall draft pick in 2018 was traded away for him. Signings that don't work out...don't cost us guys from our system too.

[The Hawk]

1 hour ago, hi8is said:

Wearing out a welcome?

I do not think that people need to get insulting when arguing what is  basically an opinion. I don't care about being popular or anything but I don't go out of my way to insult people personally and don't take any shit leveled at me. Its stupid. I like this board from my two weeks or so on it and appreciate the ideas thrown around. Its a good board with some intelligent fans on it. 

[hi8is]

4 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

I do not think that people need to get insulting when arguing what is  basically an opinion. I don't care about being popular or anything but I don't go out of my way to insult people personally and don't take any shit leveled at me. Its stupid. I like this board from my two weeks or so on it and appreciate the ideas thrown around. Its a good board with some intelligent fans on it. 

Just don’t feed the fire or take a bite. ?

[The Hawk]

2 hours ago, KonerkoFan1 said:

It may be insulting, but it is a technical term that is true. It's not like I'm calling you a weenie. 

Stat guys will regularly look at actual stats and adjust accordingly. That "This guy is batting .125 vs lefties but my gut says go with him" type of stuff is much less likely to occur. Sabermetrics are things these guys don't even care about. 

You want me to explain stuff that is entirely self explanatory. Ok. 

 

2 hours ago, KonerkoFan1 said:

It may be insulting, but it is a technical term that is true. It's not like I'm calling you a weenie. 

Stat guys will regularly look at actual stats and adjust accordingly. That "This guy is batting .125 vs lefties but my gut says go with him" type of stuff is much less likely to occur. Sabermetrics are things these guys don't even care about. 

You want me to explain stuff that is entirely self explanatory. Ok. 

That is what you think a stat guy is? He looks at stats and adjusts? And you think that there are actually some managers in baseball that do not go over stats like that or who have people who work for them that do do it and bring up things that he deems the manager needs to know? Come-on man. What that manager will typically know if he is a good manager, is whether a particular hitter for some reason can see the ball good coming out of the pitchers hand. Hitting has a lot to do with confidence as does pitching.

  I take it that you are a big time advocate of Sabermetrics. I would like to know if you have ever experienced what pitching coaches at high levels and managers at high levels actually do in preparing for and managing in baseball games? Just for a general comment, do you see any managers or pitching coaches referencing stat sheets, or computer monitors while the game is being played? I'd say that they don't. What they will do and what they have done throughout time is to prepare their teams before the game gets played as best that they can using both analytical and subjective information. And some of this stuff includes stuff that no analytical data doesn't include including injuries or achy players, whether a pitcher can find his release point in the bull-pen warming up, whether his curve ball has bite or not, etc.

    In other words, you gave me a very simplistic answer on what a stat guy manager is and what a non stat guy is and I think that it is nonsensically simplistic. I'll just state that while I do not know exactly what a major league manager or pitching coach looks at, I do know a bit about what high school coaches and college coaches and managers look at. I've also had some kids that I've coached who made it to college and professional baseball, talked to many college and professional scouts, and a few kids who did play in the major leagues. 

[The Hawk]

18 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Just don’t feed the fire or take a bite. ?

Nope. I am all for argument. I love it in fact. I just don't like personal insults. If you have an opinion that you don't agree with or dispute something that someone claims as being factual, make another argument or provide proof of the other guy being wrong.

[hi8is]

1 minute ago, The Hawk said:

Nope. I am all for argument. I love it in fact. I just don't like personal insults. If you have an opinion that you don't agree with or dispute something that someone claims as being factual, make another argument or provide proof of the other guy being wrong.

Discussion can be exclusive from feeding a fire. ?

[The Hawk]

11 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Discussion can be exclusive from feeding a fire. ?

It can. Depends, though, on what the person wants to get across to someone else.

[RagahRagah]

26 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

 

That is what you think a stat guy is? He looks at stats and adjusts? And you think that there are actually some managers in baseball that do not go over stats like that or who have people who work for them that do do it and bring up things that he deems the manager needs to know? Come-on man. What that manager will typically know if he is a good manager, is whether a particular hitter for some reason can see the ball good coming out of the pitchers hand. Hitting has a lot to do with confidence as does pitching.

  I take it that you are a big time advocate of Sabermetrics. I would like to know if you have ever experienced what pitching coaches at high levels and managers at high levels actually do in preparing for and managing in baseball games? Just for a general comment, do you see any managers or pitching coaches referencing stat sheets, or computer monitors while the game is being played? I'd say that they don't. What they will do and what they have done throughout time is to prepare their teams before the game gets played as best that they can using both analytical and subjective information. And some of this stuff includes stuff that no analytical data doesn't include including injuries or achy players, whether a pitcher can find his release point in the bull-pen warming up, whether his curve ball has bite or not, etc.

    In other words, you gave me a very simplistic answer on what a stat guy manager is and what a non stat guy is and I think that it is nonsensically simplistic. I'll just state that while I do not know exactly what a major league manager or pitching coach looks at, I do know a bit about what high school coaches and college coaches and managers look at. I've also had some kids that I've coached who made it to college and professional baseball, talked to many college and professional scouts, and a few kids who did play in the major leagues. 

You're taking three and a half hours to watch 60 minutes here with this take.

You keep asking questions that have incredibly simplistic answers and then respond by saying you "don't think so." Yet you fail to provide your own take of what is, rather than what isn't.

But when you are quoted earlier as saying that it sure as hell doesn't manifest itself on the field you frankly showed that you don't have a clue what you're talking about in any regard of this discussion.

You also say you don't like insults after you used one yourself.

Telling someone that they're dense actually means something. Telling someone they are a weenie does not.

And in your never-ending string of logical fallacies, here you are talking about who you "talk to." If you don't think any managers use sabermetrics or that some of them don't use any statistics at all, you're just plainly and simply wrong as others have pointed out here multiple times.

[hi8is]

10 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

It can. Depends, though, on what the person wants to get across to someone else.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by hi8is

[The Hawk]

3 minutes ago, KonerkoFan1 said:

You're taking three and a half hours to watch 60 minutes here with this take.

    What pray tell does that mean?

3 minutes ago, KonerkoFan1 said:

You keep asking questions that have incredibly simplistic answers and then respond by saying you "don't think so." Yet you fail to provide your own take of what is, rather than what isn't.

    Nope. I asked you to tell me what you think a stat guy manager is versus a non stat guy manager. YOur answer was the simplistic thing, not the question.

3 minutes ago, KonerkoFan1 said:

But when you are quoted earlier as saying that it sure as hell doesn't manifest itself on the field you frankly showed that you don't have a clue what you're talking about in any regard of this discussion.

   What doesn't manifest itself on the field?

3 minutes ago, KonerkoFan1 said:

You also say you don't like insults after you used one yourself.

I didn't call anyone a weenie to my  knowledge. But there really are stat weenies that are baseball fans. Just as there are dense people.

Telling someone that they're dense actually means something. Telling someone they are a weenie does not.

 Did I call you a weenie? If I did, I apologize.

And in your never-ending string of logical fallacies, here you are talking about who you "talk to." If you don't think any managers use sabermetrics or that some of them don't use any statistics at all, you're just plainly and simply wrong as others have pointed out here multiple times.

    What logical fallacies have I done. Be specific. As far as your question itself. I never said anything to the effect that certain managers do not use statistics. You did, in fact. And you never did answer my question about whether you happened to know what happens inside a baseball dugout and clubhouse in terms of planning for a game and what gets done during the actual game in terms of decision processing.

[RagahRagah]

1 minute ago, The Hawk said:

    What pray tell does that mean?

    Nope. I asked you to tell me what you think a stat guy manager is versus a non stat guy manager. YOur answer was the simplistic thing, not the question.

   What doesn't manifest itself on the field?

    What logical fallacies have I done. Be specific. As far as your question itself. I never said anything to the effect that certain managers do not use statistics. You did, in fact. And you never did answer my question about whether you happened to know what happens inside a baseball dugout and clubhouse in terms of planning for a game and what gets done during the actual game in terms of decision processing.

It means you're taking numerous long paragraphs to complete a thought that takes far less effort than that.

The answer was simplistic because the question had a simple answer. And you merely contradicted what I said.

You were called out for essentially saying that the difference between a stat guy and a non stat guy doesn't show itself on the field. That alone shows you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and that you probably don't actually pay attention to any actual statistics.

Whataboutism (you still have failed to acknowledge the fact that you called someone a weenie, which is serving no purpose, whereas I use the word dense, which actually does mean something), moving the goalposts, anecdotal evidence, and the entire reason you're in the hot water you've been in this topic was because you started with burden of proof. Virtually all your arguments are wrapped in logical fallacies.

 

Your inability to stay focused on one thing and jumping from topic to topic as soon as you get called out for something is very telling.

[michelangelosmonkey]

17 hours ago, RagahRagah said:

Another person who doesn't understand grading things by process rather than result, I see.

Your sample size of "free agents" is at best the same as the amount that have been poor anyway.

You're also not taking into account all the perfect fits for this team he failed to sign, and that's not even taking into consideration the whiffs on Machado and Wheeler.

I'm "another one of those people" that can't even understand what you are saying (bolded part) or the coherence of your non-bolded argument.   You are judging the process over the results?  Kid got all the wrong answers but his process at arriving at the wrong answers is perfect so he gets an A?  The White Sox have taken a path to contention and it sure seems we are talent rich now and free agency was part of that.  If it makes me, and others like me, idiots for understanding that results are ALL that matters...I'm ok with that label.

[RagahRagah]

7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm "another one of those people" that can't even understand what you are saying (bolded part) or the coherence of your non-bolded argument.   You are judging the process over the results?  Kid got all the wrong answers but his process at arriving at the wrong answers is perfect so he gets an A?  The White Sox have taken a path to contention and it sure seems we are talent rich now and free agency was part of that.  If it makes me, and others like me, idiots for understanding that results are ALL that matters...I'm ok with that label.

Yes, the process is what matters, not the results. That's how you judge situations. That's how works.

If you make a bad play in a poker game and put all your money on for chances of making a good hand and get lucky and make your hands, does that mean you made a good decision? Because you one? No, it was a bad decision and the more bad decisions you make the more bad results you will end up with / good ones.

Would you call nonsensical and noncoherent is just logic 101.

[The Hawk]

18 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

It means you're taking numerous long paragraphs to complete a thought that takes far less effort than that.

  I was attempting to explain where I was coming from as well as ascertaining what you were trying to get at.

The answer was simplistic because the question had a simple answer. And you merely contradicted what I said.

 Nope. It was your answer that was simplistic, not the question. A lot goes into what a manager reviews before, during, and after a game. Not the "this guy is only hitting .175 against left handed pitchers as an example you gave of a guy who employs "statistics".

You were called out for essentially saying that the difference between a stat guy and a non stat guy doesn't show itself on the field. That alone shows you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and that you probably don't actually pay attention to any actual statistics.

Whataboutism (you still have failed to acknowledge the fact that you called someone a weenie, which is serving no purpose, whereas I use the word dense, which actually does mean something), moving the goalposts, anecdotal evidence, and the entire reason you're in the hot water you've been in this topic was because you started with burden of proof. Virtually all your arguments are wrapped in logical fallacies.

   You keep going back to this weenie stuff. Why is that? Did I somehow insult you in some way? How? As for my somehow "being in hot water", that's pretty funny in itself. This entire thing started with a falsity about Mazara's power numbers being bad. I said that they were above average for the league which they are. There is no logical fallacy on my part about anything. 

 

Your inability to stay focused on one thing and jumping from topic to topic as soon as you get called out for something is very telling.

   Funny stuff. I like to talk about different topics. You and a couple of your pals told me that I didn't understand statistics very early on and mocked me in a really weak way. I like baseball and know quite a bit about it. I know what I know but I do not yet know what you know and I was actually trying to learn more about you and others on this site as a way of going forward. If you want to continue the insults, go right ahead. I'm a big boy and can take any stuff coming from you or anyone else. have at it.

      Bottom line. Mazara is an average major league right fielder. All major league managers and pitching coaches use statistics to one extent or the other as information which pertains to their job. Statistics do not run the game that is being played despite what some stat fans want to believe, players and managers do. And if you want to disprove something that I've said, the burden of proof is on you, not me. Consider this a US Court of Law, not a French Court of Law. 

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

      Bottom line. Mazara is an average major league right fielder. All major league managers and pitching coaches use statistics to one extent or the other as information which pertains to their job. Statistics do not run the game that is being played despite what some stat fans want to believe, players and managers do. And if you want to disprove something that I've said, the burden of proof is on you, not me. Consider this a US Court of Law, not a French Court of Law. 

This is where people should stop reading.

[Lemon_44]

Isn’t Micker supposed to eventually by the RF?  How far away is he?  The Sox have shown they’re not afraid to put their youngsters out there. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

16 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

Yes, the process is what matters, not the results. That's how you judge situations. That's how works.

If you make a bad play in a poker game and put all your money on for chances of making a good hand and get lucky and make your hands, does that mean you made a good decision? Because you one? No, it was a bad decision and the more bad decisions you make the more bad results you will end up with / good ones.

Would you call nonsensical and noncoherent is just logic 101.

I'm trying to overcome all the typos and grammar errors (your process) to try to understand your point.   It seems like your are trying to suggest that the non random process of sports talent evaluation, roster building and franchise budget constraints is the same as the mathematically quantifiable randomness of card playing which further suggests you like using big words and big concepts without actually understanding them.  Still the great thing about Soxtalk is you can get all the joy out of b****ing about the idiocy of Hahn's process while I enjoy years of great play by the team he has assembled.  Vive la différence  

[michelangelosmonkey]

26 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

      Bottom line. Mazara is an average major league right fielder. All major league managers and pitching coaches use statistics to one extent or the other as information which pertains to their job. Statistics do not run the game that is being played despite what some stat fans want to believe, players and managers do. And if you want to disprove something that I've said, the burden of proof is on you, not me. Consider this a US Court of Law, not a French Court of Law. 

I read Bill James (the father of sabermetrics) abstracts from the beginning. One of the first things he wrote is that the difference between an all star and a journeyman is one hit a week...and that without looking at stats we can draw bad conclusions.  Then again maybe we have all clouded our minds a bit by stats.  It is clear that Adam Engel is a great fielder, is really fast and can hit for some power...does that extra hit a week matter so much that we exclude him?  Probably the math says yes and the eyes say no.  I think a Mazara/Engel combo next year would be fine...providing we sign Bauer or Stroman/Q.  I liked the idea of Mazara last off season...lefty hitter with big upside.  I think it is sort of foolish to completely write him off in the weird Covid year...Christian Yelich and Jose Altuve had bad years.  Truth is Mazara only had 149 at bats.  I'm ok with giving him another shot.

 

[yesterday333]

48 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

      Bottom line. Mazara is an average major league right fielder. All major league managers and pitching coaches use statistics to one extent or the other as information which pertains to their job. Statistics do not run the game that is being played despite what some stat fans want to believe, players and managers do. And if you want to disprove something that I've said, the burden of proof is on you, not me. Consider this a US Court of Law, not a French Court of Law. 

Bottom line is he is average if you only go by the stats you approve of and only look at AL not the whole league, and decide he is a good fielder based on your eye test. My eye test said he is slow and lumbering and has bad range. Oh and the stats back up my eye test. And I could try to prove he isn’t an average hitting RF but you only except hr ave and rbi as your approved stats. He has never been average in my book.

[RagahRagah]

57 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

      Bottom line. Mazara is an average major league right fielder. All major league managers and pitching coaches use statistics to one extent or the other as information which pertains to their job. Statistics do not run the game that is being played despite what some stat fans want to believe, players and managers do. And if you want to disprove something that I've said, the burden of proof is on you, not me. Consider this a US Court of Law, not a French Court of Law. 

Bottom line?

So basically you completely ignore every single point in the argument thrown your way and just make an absolute statement disregarding all of that. Not to mention they're still numerous things you glossed over and never addressed. You asked what logical fallacies you committed and I told you.

Funny how you now have nothing to say. The argument is clearly over and you lost.