Mazara and Right Field Thread

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

   I think that a platoon of Engel and Mazara will be okay next year. Engel is also a great defensive outfielder and Mazara I think is better than average over-all. 

If we are going to spend $10 million on RF, which is the salary those two would require if Mazara were offered arbitration, we can do better.

[The Hawk]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If we are going to spend $10 million on RF, which is the salary those two would require if Mazara were offered arbitration, we can do better.

I don't think so. Not when you talk about over-all offense and defense. Mazara will come back as a hitter and I don't think that Engel will go down offensively. I really  think that Mazara really never got well physically and it ruined his bat speed.

[The Hawk]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think it says a lot that the White Sox didn’t trust him enough to play him over Mazara even when he was clearly playing better. 

No one, and I mean no one on this planet, hates Rick Hahn trades more than me. But if we can’t afford to sign both a RF and a starting pitcher of the caliber that will make us a threat to the Rays and Yankees and Astros, let alone the freaking Dodgers with Betts, then now might be the time to trade for a real one. Can another GM make the deal for us?

This remains a league of superteams. You want to beat a super team, you build a super team.

 

    I totally disagree with your assessment in the above. They kept playing Mazara because they thought that he'd regain his stroke and he did show some improvement at the tail end of the season. As for hating Hahn, I love Hahn both the trades he makes and the signings that he has done of Latin players. You say that this is a league of "superteams". The Dodgers haven't won a World Series since the late 80's. Are the Yankees a "super-team"? I don't think so. Look at the Rays. Their entire salary equals just two of the Dodger's players and one is a pitcher on the wrong side of 30 years old.

     I am excited about the White Sox and what they  are doing, including looking for a new manager and pitching coach. This was unexpected and I am pleased about that firing also.

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

I don't think so. Not when you talk about over-all offense and defense. Mazara will come back as a hitter and I don't think that Engel will go down offensively. I really  think that Mazara really never got well physically and it ruined his bat speed.

I could post quite a bit of data suggesting Mazara is a poor mans avi but it's all going to fall on deaf ears for anybody still clinging to the idea his "breakout" is still coming.  His pitch type data suggests a one trick pony that once the League adjusted wasn't able to adjust himself.  Covid didn't prevent the guy from hitting any sort of off speed pitch this year the holes in his swing and approach did.  

[The Hawk]

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I could post quite a bit of data suggesting Mazara is a poor mans avi but it's all going to fall on deaf ears for anybody still clinging to the idea his "breakout" is still coming.  His pitch type data suggests a one trick pony that once the League adjusted wasn't able to adjust himself.  Covid didn't prevent the guy from hitting any sort of off speed pitch this year the holes in his swing and approach did.  

  We will just agree to disagree then. He was sick and I don't think he ever recovered. The same thing with Moncada. He never was right physically either. Look. Mazara is far from an above average hitter but he is an average right field offensively historically. And the notion of having a platoon of Engel and Mazara is not something that is going to hurt this team offensively because the rest of the line-up is so good. If Moncada and Mazara come back to where they were before this silly season this Sox offense if going to set offensive baseball records that may never be met again.

[poppysox]

51 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think it says a lot that the White Sox didn’t trust him enough to play him over Mazara even when he was clearly playing better. 

No one, and I mean no one on this planet, hates Rick Hahn trades more than me. But if we can’t afford to sign both a RF and a starting pitcher of the caliber that will make us a threat to the Rays and Yankees and Astros, let alone the freaking Dodgers with Betts, then now might be the time to trade for a real one. Can another GM make the deal for us?

This remains a league of superteams. You want to beat a super team, you build a super team.

You said if you had to...you would take a defensive RF in order to afford top pitching.  I gave you the name of someone we already have on the team that fits that description.

[Balta1701]

12 minutes ago, poppysox said:

You said if you had to...you would take a defensive RF in order to afford top pitching.  I gave you the name of someone we already have on the team that fits that description.

True, but that was in reply to "Would you go with Blake Rutherford" there. 

The right answer is "you have to do both somehow so figure it out. The Dodgers and Yankees and better teams are going to. You have to be ready to beat them."

[Balta1701]

50 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

  We will just agree to disagree then. He was sick and I don't think he ever recovered. The same thing with Moncada. He never was right physically either. Look. Mazara is far from an above average hitter but he is an average right field offensively historically. And the notion of having a platoon of Engel and Mazara is not something that is going to hurt this team offensively because the rest of the line-up is so good. If Moncada and Mazara come back to where they were before this silly season this Sox offense if going to set offensive baseball records that may never be met again.

Even if Mazara is better than you saw this year, are you willing to risk $6 million+ on him next year? He will make that if you offer him arbitration. If you are unwilling to offer him that money, then he is going to be a free agent on December 1. Thats' the determining factor - the arbitration deadline is the start of December, and if you offer him arbitration you are effectively guaranteeing him $6 million (you can cut him at the end of ST for $1.5 million).  

I think there's a decent chance he's better next year, but given what we saw this year, there's zero reason why I want to spend $9 million on a Mazara/Engel platoon. In a league where so many teams are going to be cost cutting, that's crazy money to spend on that weak of a platoon. Go spend that money on someone better, or let Mazara go to the FA market and try to sign him or someone else for a chance to earn $1 million in February.

[The Hawk]

12 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Wouldn't say rodon was a failure of development. 15-18 he was a solid pitcher averaging a 4.01 ERA and 1.7 bWAR. That is not fantastic but basically a good 4 starter or mediocre 3 starter. 

He already was not durable averaging only 124 innings but was generally an effective pitcher. 

Then injuries got worse and he was very bad in 19 and 20 albeit it was only like 40 innings combined. 

So he maybe was not what you expect from such a high pick but he was generally a solid pitcher who was ruined by injuries. 

So unless you attribute the injuries to the training or mechanics not optimized by the Sox you can't attribute his decline to bad development. 

Yeah, I think that the guy just was unlucky with his arm injuries. I think that he has very good mechanics.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, The Hawk said:

Yeah, I think that the guy just was unlucky with his arm injuries. I think that he has very good mechanics.

I...somewhat disagree.

[The Hawk]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I...somewhat disagree.

What do you think he is doing wrong?

[Two-Gun Pete]

25 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

 I'd be willing to let him go to arbitration and bet that he loses in it. The guy averaged 20 home runs a year for four straight years, got strep throat and got weak and never recovered from it. The way that I look at it is that the odds are that he will rebound well next year when he gets his strength back and Adam Engel is as good a defensive outfielder as there is in all of baseball. They need starting pitching as in a Trevor Bauer type guy.

Going to arb would mean he'll be on $6Mm+/yr, even if he loses. And, that's with him being under team control for 2021, and then FA thereafter. For a guy with a career 90 wrc+, a severe handedness deficit, and minimal range, Mazara aint worth it. Especially in what looks like a depressed FA market environment. 

This offseason, $6MM should go further than ~0.8 fWAR for a corner OFer.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[Two-Gun Pete]

13 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Wouldn't say rodon was a failure of development. 15-18 he was a solid pitcher averaging a 4.01 ERA and 1.7 bWAR. That is not fantastic but basically a good 4 starter or mediocre 3 starter. 

He already was not durable averaging only 124 innings but was generally an effective pitcher. 

Then injuries got worse and he was very bad in 19 and 20 albeit it was only like 40 innings combined. 

So he maybe was not what you expect from such a high pick but he was generally a solid pitcher who was ruined by injuries. 

So unless you attribute the injuries to the training or mechanics not optimized by the Sox you can't attribute his decline to bad development. 

Injuries aside, the 3rd overall pick could/should have become more than Rodon became. And despite his elite slider, his complete inability to consistently/reliably locate his FB made his slider less useful. Which in turn, made Rodon less than he could have become.

Who knows, with his stuff, and a good run of health, and more competent coaching, Rodon can still become something of note. But his allergy to throwing strikes isn't unique; both Lopez and Cease also have allergies to strike-throwing, and it doesn't seem to be coincidental, IMO.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[Dominikk85]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I...somewhat disagree.

I have really not heard much negative about rodon's mechanics. It probably is not 100% perfect but was never considered a big red flag (like sale's mechanics). Maybe there are some things that can be optimized but some guys are just fragile while others with questionable mechanics last a decade. 

[pcq]

I would non tender. Better to focus on healthy candidates regardless of his future. 

[southsider2k5]

7 hours ago, The Hawk said:

 I'd be willing to let him go to arbitration and bet that he loses in it. The guy averaged 20 home runs a year for four straight years, got strep throat and got weak and never recovered from it. The way that I look at it is that the odds are that he will rebound well next year when he gets his strength back and Adam Engel is as good a defensive outfielder as there is in all of baseball. They need starting pitching as in a Trevor Bauer type guy.

You'd probably lose. You non-tender Mazara and try and sign him for a fraction of this former salary as a free agent, that is if you are even interested. 

 

[bmags]

3 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

I have really not heard much negative about rodon's mechanics. It probably is not 100% perfect but was never considered a big red flag (like sale's mechanics). Maybe there are some things that can be optimized but some guys are just fragile while others with questionable mechanics last a decade. 

The great ptatc from the moment he was drafted said something about keeping his trunk too upright in follow through* would make throwing strikes difficult and not was he right
 

* I don’t remember if this was right but he talked about some issue a lot

[poppysox]

On 10/20/2020 at 9:48 PM, The Hawk said:

The most important guy that the Sox will add in this off-season may in actuality be the new pitching coach. Cease has got a multi-million dollar arm but his lower half mechanically sucks. This should be pretty fixable but he needs to throw strikes with command.

Lopez, Cease, and Dunning are all guys whom I am hopeful will progress mightily with a new voice whispering in their collective ears.

[ScootsMcGoots]

9 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Injuries aside, the 3rd overall pick could/should have become more than Rodon became. And despite his elite slider, his complete inability to consistently/reliably locate his FB made his slider less useful. Which in turn, made Rodon less than he could have become.

Who knows, with his stuff, and a good run of health, and more competent coaching, Rodon can still become something of note. But his allergy to throwing strikes isn't unique; both Lopez and Cease also have allergies to strike-throwing, and it doesn't seem to be coincidental, IMO.

But...I don't think you can say "injuries aside." They are literally the reason why he has not developed like everyone expected him to.

[SonofaRoache]

Even with hitting 20+ homers a year Mazara was a negative player overall. There isn't much room for him to get better from an OBP perspective or a power perspective from his norm. 

[he gone.]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

You'd probably lose. You non-tender Mazara and try and sign him for a fraction of this former salary as a free agent, that is if you are even interested. 

 

This. It's basically Yolmer all over again. I'm completely fine with him being on this team next year. It's not my preference, but I'm okay with it because assuming we have another 16 team playoff (and based on Covid and vaccines, etc I think its more likely than not) then you really don't need to care too much about winning over the 162 game season. As long as you don't care about seeding, you should be able to make it with our talent on the roster -- so the upside/downside isn't that big to me. if you don't have a target you like this offseason, then dont rush it to rush it. Can always sit back and wait for the trade deadline. That allows you to see if Mazara has anything in the tank (unlikely) or if Engel has another step forward left in him (id guess unlikely too). With how stacked our offense is you're not losing a WS because of RF, teams can have a hole or two in a lineup ... usually it's at catcher, but since that's not an issue on our end, it comes in RF. 

 

Pitching should remain the focus. S

Bauer, Stroman, Trade. 

[ron883]

People kept telling me Stiever + lands Nimmo. I doubt that is the case tbh, but I so that 100/100 times. 

[bmags]

If we get good upgrades to our pitching, would this be acceptable to the board?

vs RHP: 109 wRC+ .329 OBP 15% k rate

vs LHP: 117 wRC+.350+ OBP 23% k rate

This is the adam engel + josh reddick platoon

 

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, bmags said:

If we get good upgrades to our pitching, would this be acceptable to the board?

vs RHP: 109 wRC+ .329 OBP 15% k rate

vs LHP: 117 wRC+.350+ OBP 23% k rate

 

  Hide contents

This is the adam engel + josh reddick platoon

 

 

Reddick put up a 87 wRC+ against RHP last year and is a poor defender.  He is also 33 years old so it may only get worse from here.  We can do better than Reddick IMO.  Hell, call up the Dbacks and see if they’d give Calhoun away for a lottery ticket.  I think there will be interesting older players available for basically just money if we’re willing to absorb contracts.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Reddick put up a 87 wRC+ against RHP last year and is a poor defender.  He is also 33 years old so it may only get worse from here.  We can do better than Reddick IMO.  Hell, call up the Dbacks and see if they’d give Calhoun away for a lottery ticket.  I think there will be interesting older players available for basically just money if we’re willing to absorb contracts.

Fair enough it looks like his splits really have started to invert this year. I think his defense this year should be grain of salt but overall looking at diet brantleys for cheap is in my wheelhouse.