Mazara and Right Field Thread

[Bob Sacamano]

45 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Mazara will be lucky to have more than a NRI after the Sox non tender him.  At best he signs a 2-3 million deal for a team trying a pump and dump.

Yeah he's pretty much a Tiger, Oriole, or Pirate if/when he gets cut.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

People kept telling me Stiever + lands Nimmo. I doubt that is the case tbh, but I so that 100/100 times. 

I would sincerely doubt it. Stiever only had a couple outings this year, it’s not like he dominated AA for a whole season, so the Mets would probably be skeptical on that, and with a brand new owner I would be surprised if that was a team that would push hard to cut costs.

[The Hawk]

2 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

Even with hitting 20+ homers a year Mazara was a negative player overall. There isn't much room for him to get better from an OBP perspective or a power perspective from his norm. 

The thing is that they do not need to have above average players at all positions. Very few teams in the history of baseball have had that. The Sox, to me, are only a couple of solid starting pitchers away from being the favorite to win in the AL. 

[The Hawk]

12 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I understand the attraction towards Bauer, I really do. And yes, adding him (@ perhaps ~$25MM/yr) would mean there would be 3 good SPs in the rotation. 

But under the likely payroll constraints, that would mean there would also likely be 2 shitty SPs, walking the yard every outing, and burning up the bullpen. More Cease starts (with his 5BB/9) and/or more Lopez starts (with his 5BB/9) means more Ross detwiler/detwiler-equivalent innings. Which in turn, will mean at best, a road wildcard playoff game, but more likely, this team on the outside looking in.

Again, I'd be stoked (initially) if Bauer were signed here. But we'd all go back to dry-heaving the first time Cease gives up 4 runs in 3 2/3IP & 80 pitches thrown, because he can't reliably locate his FB.

And then, with most of the payroll flexibility used up, there could be scant opportunity to add later on. (Remember, his agent isn't gonna give any discounts.) Just my perception at the moment, because I simply don't trust Lopez/Cease/Dunning/Kopech as yet.

 I'm kind of an "odds" guy when it comes to especially young talent and I think that the "odds" are that somewhere out of Dunning, Cease, Lopez, Burdi, the two 100 MPH arms, and other guys waiting in the wing, one or two of these guys are going to turn into quality major league starting pitchers. There was a reason why the White Sox drafted these guys and paid them major bank to sign after all. I think also that the average fan doesn't realize that young pitchers need time to mature and develop and that virtually none of them are ready right away. Its a tough process and some luck physically is involved. These guys are no different.

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

If we get good upgrades to our pitching, would this be acceptable to the board?

vs RHP: 109 wRC+ .329 OBP 15% k rate

vs LHP: 117 wRC+.350+ OBP 23% k rate

 

  Hide contents

This is the adam engel + josh reddick platoon

 

 

I would be ok with pretty much any nominal replacement level platoon partner with Engel if they can land the best available/acquirable pitching upgrades.  The offense can make up for a poor hitting RF better than the pitching can cover multiple holes in the rotation.

Edited October 23, 2020 by SouthWallace

[Vulture]

15 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Going to arb would mean he'll be on $6Mm+/yr, even if he loses.

That is incorrect. The least the Sox can offer him in arbitration is 4.448 million. Given his performance, if he had any sense, his counter wouldn't be much more than 5 million since he would be more likely to lose the higher he went.

 

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, Vulture said:

That is incorrect. The least the Sox can offer him in arbitration is 4.448 million. Given his performance, if he had any sense, his counter wouldn't be much more than 5 million since he would be more likely to lose the higher he went.

 

When it the last time you saw someone get a paycut through arbitration?

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, Vulture said:

That is incorrect. The least the Sox can offer him in arbitration is 4.448 million. Given his performance, if he had any sense, his counter wouldn't be much more than 5 million since he would be more likely to lose the higher he went.

 

There is no reason the Sox should offer him arb. Offer him $1 million or $2 million with some incentives so if he plays well he gets $6 million, and tack on a team option at $6 or 7 million. I think he would be a fool to turn it down. 

[pcq]

Normally I like projects but no more time. 

[Bob Sacamano]

54 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

There is no reason the Sox should offer him arb. Offer him $1 million or $2 million with some incentives so if he plays well he gets $6 million, and tack on a team option at $6 or 7 million. I think he would be a fool to turn it down. 

Yeah they can definitely try that route. If he doesn't agree, non-tender and move on.

[AJ'S Cousin]

i guess we should rename this the Bauer/Mazara blog. He's not coming back (hopefully). Let's drop Mazara and get on with PITCHING PLEASE!!!!!!

JR, unless he's brain dead will not spend 6 million on him. 

This is money that needs to spent on Stroman, Bauer or whoever else is available. We have about a 2 year window to get this done. 

We are in much better shape than the Cubs, our guys are younger and under control with great contracts to ACQUIRE 1 OR 2 STARTERS TO GET OVER THE LINE. 

LET'S SIGN SOME PITCHING. SLOWLY STRETCH OUT CROCHET AND KOPECH AND MOVE ON. Remember if the the Cubs trade Rizzo and or Bryant they are in another rebuild and are looking to dump salaries. 

JQ may be available then. 

[knightni]

You know who would be a good player to acquire?

Andrew Stevenson of the Nationals 

[Jack Parkman]

Say no to George Springer. 

I don't think he's going to age well and I think whoever signs him will be in a world of hurt. 

[The Hawk]

On 10/22/2020 at 9:33 PM, Two-Gun Pete said:

Injuries aside, the 3rd overall pick could/should have become more than Rodon became. And despite his elite slider, his complete inability to consistently/reliably locate his FB made his slider less useful. Which in turn, made Rodon less than he could have become.

Who knows, with his stuff, and a good run of health, and more competent coaching, Rodon can still become something of note. But his allergy to throwing strikes isn't unique; both Lopez and Cease also have allergies to strike-throwing, and it doesn't seem to be coincidental, IMO.

  I believe that Cease's problem is pretty much mechanical while Lopez thinks too much and nibbles. I feel sorry for Rodon because he has had arm troubles off and on for a long time. He'll basically have next spring training to either sink or swim in baseball methinks.

[hi8is]

49 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

I think re-signing Colome should be a priority first of all. He's been a top three closer for several years now and shows no signs of deteriorating skills. Hoping for someone to slide into a main closer's role is a risk that I wouldn't take especially once the play-offs start. I bring in Mercedes to be the back-up catcher and DH him also as I do not think Collins can hit major league pitching and is no great shakes as a catcher either. I would love to keep McCann also but with Vaughn coming onto the scene, he will need at least 250-300 ABs next year. 

   I've already stated that I'd keep Mazara and platoon him with Engle as well as Engel spelling Robert and Jimenez when needed. 

I really want Bauer as the number one priority and a heathy left handed end of the rotation starter. I question if JQ will fit that health requirement  but the available inventory of veteran left handed starters are all pretty tweaky right now so its anyone's guess. 

Vaughn... 250 - 300 abs??? 

[The Hawk]

6 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Vaughn... 250 - 300 abs??? 

Too many? Not enough? The thing about Vaughn is, he's going to be a raw rookie next year just like Robert was. What he does hitting wise is unknown as it is for all rookies.

[The Hawk]

13 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Mazara will be lucky to have more than a NRI after the Sox non tender him.  At best he signs a 2-3 million deal for a team trying a pump and dump.

He'll be tendered. He was sick. What are you thinking to do about Moncada? The same kind of thing? Try and trade him because he had Covid and didn't produce except defensively?

[hi8is]

1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

Too many? Not enough? The thing about Vaughn is, he's going to be a raw rookie next year just like Robert was. What he does hitting wise is unknown as it is for all rookies.

He needs to play full time once he’s called up... and I’d like him up a couple weeks after the season starts.

Think you’re underestimating his talent and his need to continue his development at the major league level.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, The Hawk said:

He'll be tendered. He was sick. What are you thinking to do about Moncada? The same kind of thing? Try and trade him because he had Covid and didn't produce except defensively?

There is zero chance Mazara gets tendered.  I’d say there is a tiny chance he’s brought back at like $3M to be a depth piece, but no way they pay him $6M after the year he just had.  Also, the comparison to Moncada is laughable as Yoan has a well above-average track record while Nomar has been replacement level over his career.

[poppysox]

7 hours ago, The Hawk said:

  I believe that Cease's problem is pretty much mechanical while Lopez thinks too much and nibbles. I feel sorry for Rodon because he has had arm troubles off and on for a long time. He'll basically have next spring training to either sink or swim in baseball methinks.

Throwing strikes has been a problem for many Sox pitchers.  Hope the new guy has an answer to this problem.

[southsider2k5]

9 hours ago, The Hawk said:

He'll be tendered. He was sick. What are you thinking to do about Moncada? The same kind of thing? Try and trade him because he had Covid and didn't produce except defensively?

Oof. This take.

#1: Look at the career of Mazara

#2: Look at the career of Moncada

#3: Moncada is under contract until 2024, and if you tried to sell him off 29 other teams would be thrilled to take him.

#4: Mazara is in arbitration and is probably is line for a raise, in an off season where you are about to see the worst free agent market on history.

#5: Even if you project 2021 Mazara to come in at career norms, you will still be able to buy similar production expectations much cheater on the free agent market.

#6: Even if you don't sign a RF, there is an expectation that an Engel/Leury RF could give you at least a neutral WAR next year. In 60 games this year we got 1 WAR combined out of the 2, playing 52 of those games.

[The Hawk]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Oof. This take.

#1: Look at the career of Mazara

#2: Look at the career of Moncada

#3: Moncada is under contract until 2024, and if you tried to sell him off 29 other teams would be thrilled to take him.

#4: Mazara is in arbitration and is probably is line for a raise, in an off season where you are about to see the worst free agent market on history.

#5: Even if you project 2021 Mazara to come in at career norms, you will still be able to buy similar production expectations much cheater on the free agent market.

#6: Even if you don't sign a RF, there is an expectation that an Engel/Leury RF could give you at least a neutral WAR next year. In 60 games this year we got 1 WAR combined out of the 2, playing 52 of those games.

 My point on Moncada was tongue in cheek. Mazara was before this silly season, an average major league right fielder offensively and defensively. NO question that Moncada is the better major league player. But, they both got sick and their performance slipped greatly. Its not like they have gotten old and can't rebound. They both are young. As for buying similar expectations on the free agent market, I kind of doubt it. I think that $4.5-5.5M is pretty reasonable.

  

[The Hawk]

10 hours ago, KonerkoFan1 said:

If that opinion shocks you then you haven't been on this board much this year. There has been a ton of analysis on how bad his FA signings have gone, not to mention how many have been missed out on or struck out on. Hahn's strong point has been extensions.

I guess then that I just must disagree with that opinion regarding Hahn. Somehow maybe the best batting order in all of baseball got put together somehow and the cost of it doesn't even come close to the cost of the so-called "elite" baseball organizations. Hahn did it via smart trades and excellent drafting as well as harvesting Latin America better than anyone else around. I personally think that the high end free agent signings turn out to be unsuccessful in the majority of cases and can actually hamstring an organization's ability to go forward. Looking at the free agents that the Sox brought in, some have really helped this team and didn't break the bank. I'm talking about McCann, Grandal, Colome  Kuechel, He's had some misses but all GMs miss

[The Hawk]

31 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

The problem is Mazara was so bad can you even take the risk? He hit a homer in 60 games and basically became a singles hitter. I think our front office wants to go big so we shall see how they play it. Mazara with his norms I'd be okay with as a platoon, but the guy we got this season isn't worth the risk to me. 

   I just absolutely believe that you need to throw away what he did this season. I just do not believe that a player forgets how to hit. I think that he was sick and weak which changed his swing greatly. I think that hitting a baseball is the single hardest thing to do in all of sports and something was wrong with Mazara physically. Maybe I am wrong.? Maybe he just forgot?

    Realistically, he will have spring training to reclaim his stroke. If they need to move on, then fine. I do say that if he returns to his output average of the previous four years then it will be just peachy:)

[The Hawk]

39 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

No way Hahn takes the risk.  Two years in a row he got worst in league performance out of RF.  He isn’t going to risk a third straight by running with the same guy.

We will see. When they brought Mazara in it wasn't to be a world beater. Just better than the mess that they had in 2019. Then their guy got sick. I look at it this way. I liken what happened with Mazara to signing him and having him break his leg right out of the gate. They get no production out of him. Is it his fault that he broke his leg? Probably not, right? This, to me, is the same kind of thing. What I liked about Mazara was that he battled through what he was obviously going through. He started to go to left field and just make contact. HE made adjustments and played a decent right field through it all.

   That being said, he's going to have to prove himself. Maybe as someone has suggested, they sign him to an incentive laden contract where he can recoup whatever money he would lose if they didn't tender him. Baseball is a tough business and this is part of it. I just think that he deserves a second chance. He is still very young.