What would you have done ...

[skooch]

I'm curious to hear how others would have handled the situation if they found a cheating scandal unfolding around them and out of their control. Of course this is conjecture, but reports at the time seem to indicate that he was not in favor of it. I do think he looked like a major ass in the aftermath trying to defend it though. Who knows if the stories are true?

[chetkincaid]

If I told the front office about it and they failed to act, I would have told Rob Manfred and Joe Torre. 

[Sarava]

I think it's way easier for us to sit here Monday morning quarterbacking  and say we would of quit or blown it open. But in real life, you don't narc on your team and co-workers. I suspect most of us would of done similar to what AJ did.

[Dick Allen]

First I would tell the team to stop. Second, I would tell the Front office. And if none of that worked I would resign and tell the world what is going on, 

This is the problem I have with Hinch. Sure he destroyed a camera or 2, but he is in charge, and they put a new camera up. For all of you who think that is nothing, I doubt you would think it is nothing if Ricky Renteria had the same thing happen. I doubt you would think there really is very little a manager could do in that situation if it was Robin Ventura. It is totally fucked up, and any way you slice it, he is complicit. Cheating has always been part of baseball Stealing signs the old fashioned way, no one,IMO should have a problem with, but this way, was a home field advantage no one should ever have. Hinch is lucky he only got one year. He didn’t kill anyone. He didn’t rape anyone. He didn’t beat his wife. He isn’t a pedophile. So I guess he deserves another chance. Sure Dallas Keuchel likes him. But a lot of people want the Sox to sign Joc Pederson. If you are Joc, and the money is similar, do you want to play for a guy whose blantant cheating may have cost you a ring?  If you played in the AL West or were on a team that the Astros eliminated during this time, what do you think of AJ Hinch? What about the rest of the league.?  There has not exactly been a shortage of Astros hate from players around the entire league since this story broke.

I do think he is the far greater choice than LaRussa. Supposedly his baseball mind many who know of him, a lot better than me, think is unmatched. But I wonder what kind of toll the scandal takes on him. There is going to be a lot of pressure on him, both fair and unfair. But at least you can say he brought it on himself. A place like Chicago, where he would be expected to win big right away might be the wrong move for him. If the White Sox won 88 games next season and either fail to make the playoffs or are eliminated quickly, his entire record in Houston will be questioned. Many will say his WS title is not legit, the only reason he has it is cheating.

 

 

[Jack Parkman]

4 minutes ago, Sarava said:

I think it's way easier for us to sit here Monday morning quarterbacking  and say we would of quit or blown it open. But in real life, you don't narc on your team and co-workers. I suspect most of us would of done similar to what AJ did.

Yeah. Imagine you're an engineer working for a chemical company that's dumping toxins into the Mississippi or something like that. You go to the CEO and ask him to stop, you're told to FO.  Are you going to risk your career to narc on them? More serious situation. 

(this actually happened with 3M btw, but nobody stepped forward until the EPA busted them) 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

40 minutes ago, chetkincaid said:

If I told the front office about it and they failed to act, I would have told Rob Manfred and Joe Torre. 

My goodness; as much as I think we like to view ourselves as moralistic absolutists who would always do what is right... I have a hard time buying this. 

1. Manfred doesn't care; he was told multiple times and ignored it
2. You will be done with baseball for good; no one will hire someone that does that. However right or wrong.

I think Hinch had more control and power and obviously could have stopped it; it's a cop out to argue otherwise imo.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yeah. Imagine you're an engineer working for a chemical company that's dumping toxins into the Mississippi or something like that. You go to the CEO and ask him to stop, you're told to FO.  Are you going to risk your career to narc on them? Same difference. 

Uh, yes. I'm going to risk my career to stop my chemical company from polluting the Mississippi.

One is literally killing people; the other is... uh... a baseball game. Same difference

Edited October 18, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Dick Allen]

16 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yeah. Imagine you're an engineer working for a chemical company that's dumping toxins into the Mississippi or something like that. You go to the CEO and ask him to stop, you're told to FO.  Are you going to risk your career to narc on them? More serious situation. 

(this actually happened with 3M btw, but nobody stepped forward until the EPA busted them) 

It’s a bit different because AJ Hinch is the manager of the baseball team meaning he is pretty high up the flag pole, and if he takes the bullet and leaves, he will have no problem landing a similar job. It isn’t like most of us, if we stick our necks out we are trying to live on unemployment checks.

IMO, he easily could have had this end if he wanted to. First, by stopping it himself. He is in charge.Second, by getting help if that didn’t work, and telling Lunhow if it doesn’t stop, I am resigning and telling everyone why. If he did that, he still would be managing the Astros, and there is a good chance Lunhow would still be in baseball. And the Astros probably would have won anyway.

if your point is there was nothing he could do, you are saying with him as a manager, the inmates run the asylum, so he must be pretty shitty at his job.

If he wants to blame Alex Cora, fine. Then the second a new camera goes up after Hinch destroys the first, Cora should have been dismissed.

And he isn’t whistleblowing on someone above him, he is whistleblowing on employees he manages.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Dick Allen

[Harold's Leg Lift]

If he were truly against it (he wasn't) he could have started by not being a smug dickbag when questioned about it.  He could have refused to answer the questions or given non-answers which would have led to more questions and possibly an investigation which he would have wanted if he was really against it (he wasn't).  He handeled the situation in the worst possible way it could have been handeled.  He's a weasel.  

[bmags]

Id be fine with Hinch managing Sox. But it is so weird watching sox fans, with the opportunity to get him now real, starting to talk like his role in the scandal was almost a positive good.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

Id be fine with Hinch managing Sox. But it is so weird watching sox fans, with the opportunity to get him now real, starting to talk like his role in the scandal was almost a positive good.

I'm not the least bit surprised.  Fans can talk themselves into anything.  

[Jerksticks]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

Id be fine with Hinch managing Sox. But it is so weird watching sox fans, with the opportunity to get him now real, starting to talk like his role in the scandal was almost a positive good.

If nothing else you have to see it as him having pretty much no control over his clubhouse.  That’s the best outcome- him not being in charge.  Worst outcome?  Cheater.  
 

I’d almost prefer a reformed cheater to a spineless leader.  

 

Admittedly, I haven’t read too much on the scandal but it seems like it’s one or the other, no?

[bmags]

Just now, Jerksticks said:

If nothing else you have to see it as him having pretty much no control over his clubhouse.  That’s the best outcome- him not being in charge.  Worst outcome?  Cheater.  
 

I’d almost prefer a reformed cheater to a spineless leader.  

 

Admittedly, I haven’t read too much on the scandal but it seems like it’s one or the other, no?

I guess I would say that one of the reasons to want Hinch is because he has experience with the role of manager integrated with a more top down structure.

Him being used to not having full control of personnel on field decisions and development is a feature not a bug.

But it was in a skeezy, but successful org, and he’s coming from that. 
 

I just don’t want Sox hiring the last of the superstar managers. Get a guy that will get out of your way, even if he is so spineless he doesn’t object to cheating he felt was wrong.

[black jack]

I believe that I'm a moral person.  I don't lie, I don't cheat (not even in golf), and I don't steal.

I treat EVERYONE with respect until they show me that they don't deserve it.

That being said, I'm loyal to a fault.  

 

I'm so loyal to my current employer that I would be a bit unethical if it helped the company.

If they asked me to do something borderline, that isn't breaking any crimes, I'll do it. 

 

That's what this was.  

A guy that was being loyal and I understand.

[pcq]

The manager could have stopped the cheating. He failed. 

[NWINFan]

One problem here, is that the MLB, like many other power structures, don't like whistle blowers. Any whistle blower has to worry about the backlash. So, if Hinch had resigned loudly, he could have waited a long time before he worked in baseball again. 

At the same time, he could have found a discreet way to stop the cheating. But I also have the feeling that many things are happening in MLB that the average fan doesn't know about. Maybe we're better off not knowing. I wouldn't doubt if there are many things a lot worse than this, as bad as this is.

[ron883]

AJ Hinch basically poisoned the Mississippi River. Pass. 

[skooch]

20 minutes ago, pcq said:

The manager could have stopped the cheating. He failed.  

This is why I asked the question. The presumption is that he could have stopped the cheating somehow, and I guess that's true if you're willing to contemplate the nuclear option that DA talked about. 

It is very easy to judge people you don't know whose shoes you've never walked. I guess the follow up question would be: if you confronted Luhnow (who I admit I think was the real driver of the cheating) and he told you that that's the way it was going to be and to sit down and STFU, how many people here actually drop the bomb? How many walk away quietly to preserve future job opportunities, and how many turn their heads the other way and try to convince themselves that it's not really that big of a deal?

[pcq]

The manager can tell them to stop, bench them and take the garbage can and pc 

 away. Failure all the way. 

[supernuke]

The manager in a modern baseball organization is basically a middle management position. I don't think the position comes with the amount of power many people think it does. 

[TheBlackSox8]

Being in control of the lineups, the players taking advantage of cheating wouldn't play.  Set an example, and call them out in front of their fellow teammates not cheating.  If you want to cheat, you lose playing time on my team.  You do it the right way, or don't do it at all.

[Blackout Friday]

Either he was fine with them cheating or wasn’t able to stop them despite his objections. Both indicate poor leadership. 

[tray]

11 hours ago, supernuke said:

The manager in a modern baseball organization is basically a middle management position. I don't think the position comes with the amount of power many people think it does. 

Given that the buck should stop higher , at least as high as the GM.  Rick Hahn should have done something about LaRoach instead of waiting  for KW to confront him. Rick Hahn should have confronted Sale when he refused to pitch and  cut up his jersey in defiance. This year, Hahn should have told Renteria to stop running Mazara and EE out there. Hahn should have offered to bring up Vaughn and Collins or  should have just done that.    Yes, the Manager gets blamed for a lot, but the guy that pulls most of the strings is the GM who is charged with executing the plans and policies of the Owner.

[oneofthemikes]

9 hours ago, Blackout Friday said:

Either he was fine with them cheating or wasn’t able to stop them despite his objections. Both indicate poor leadership. 

Or he objected to it and team ownership told him to stand down.

[Dick Allen]

17 minutes ago, oneofthemikes said:

Or he objected to it and team ownership told him to stand down.

If he did that, and the owner fired him because of the scandal he told him to keep quiet, I think we would have heard about it by now.