Convince Me: Marcus Stroman

[bmags]

11 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

Convince you?

Uh, he's not Reynaldo Lopez or Dylab Cease

Uh, he’s also not the only possible acquisition.

[soxfan49]

39 minutes ago, bmags said:

Uh, he’s also not the only possible acquisition.

That's the point of this thread? I think all of us would rather have a better pitcher than Stroman, but with all things being considered, most of us have accepted that a player of Stroman's level is about the best we can expect this offseason, financially

[Vulture]

I think after Bauer, he's the best pitcher available in free agency. Strikeouts are great and all, but they aren't exactly efficient and aren't as great as home run suppression. Stroman keeps the ball on the ground. He has the lowest launch angle against of any pitcher in the majors, which keeps the ball in the park and induces double play balls. He's never allowed more than 0.9 hr/9 in any season. He's never had a FIP above 3.9. He's a bull dog on the mound, kind of a starter version of Colome. Put him together with a good defense and good offense he'd win a lot of games

[Two-Gun Pete]

17 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Options are only burned when sent to the minors while on the 40 man, so we haven’t burnt any of Crochet’s options yet and wouldn’t burn one next year under the hypothetical situation.  And let me be clear, I’m suggesting that I would or wouldn’t use Crochet as a reliever, just saying I think that’s ultimately what Hahn does based entirely on his comments so far. 

As for our starting pitching depth, I think Hahn ultimately adds two starters and goes with Dane in the 5th spot.  That means Kopech, Cease, & Stiever all start the season at Charlotte (which is I think is the right approach for Dylan who has so much untapped potential but needs to figure out how to throw strikes and get more movement on his fastball).  From my perspective, that’s plenty of rotation depth that it would allow you to leverage Crochet in the bullpen for a year.  But ultimately I want to do what’s best for Garrett’s development as a starter more than anything.

Yeah, I'd misremembered that. And you guys are right about not having burned an option. 

That said, I remain convinced that this club should:

1. let go of Gonzalez & Rodon, and sign Stroman and Q,

2. Send Cease to Charlotte to get his shit sorted using his last option,

3. Go stretch out Crochet in Birmingham or Charlotte, and

4. Sign another reliever, to give Crochet the time and space to find out if he CAN be stretched out.

 

After watching them try to "develop SPs @ the big league level," but then watch Fulmer fail, Rodon fail, Lopez fail, and now Cease beginning the failure curve, Im fücking sick of watching the cavalcade of failure. You may be right that Hahn moronically wants to keep doing the same stupid shit with Crochet that they did with the others. But I keep praying that these imbeciles in the FO finally figure out how to bring young SPs into MLB, & get them to actually succeed.

What they've been doing just sucks, full stop.

[Vulture]

I'm still trying to figure out why they eliminated the curveball from Lopez's repertoire. Because it worked with giolito is not a good reason but that's the only one I can come up with. It clearly didnt work out with Lopez. It was his best pitch when he came up with the Nats. I'd like to see if he can bounce back employing it before giving up on him.

[The Hawk]

2 minutes ago, Vulture said:

I'm still trying to figure out why they eliminated the curveball from Lopez's repertoire. Because it worked with giolito is not a good reason but that's the only one I can come up with. It clearly didnt work out with Lopez. It was his best pitch when he came up with the Nats. I'd like to see if he can bounce back employing it before giving up on him.

Usually any major league pitcher must be able to control and spot his fastball before much else happens. This is something that Lopez finds very difficult thus far. I think that Lopez really has the most ground to recover as a pitcher in that I think that it is mental with him just like it was with Fuller. He needs to learn how to repeat a delivery.

[bmags]

1 hour ago, Vulture said:

I'm still trying to figure out why they eliminated the curveball from Lopez's repertoire. Because it worked with giolito is not a good reason but that's the only one I can come up with. It clearly didnt work out with Lopez. It was his best pitch when he came up with the Nats. I'd like to see if he can bounce back employing it before giving up on him.

We haven’t had a pitcher use a curve aside from Gio who was way too established with it. I hope our pitching coach staff is better at coaching a wider array of pitches aside from fastball, change up, cutter

[soxfan49]

6 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yeah, I'd misremembered that. And you guys are right about not having burned an option. 

That said, I remain convinced that this club should:

1. let go of Gonzalez & Rodon, and sign Stroman and Q,

2. Send Cease to Charlotte to get his shit sorted using his last option,

3. Go stretch out Crochet in Birmingham or Charlotte, and

4. Sign another reliever, to give Crochet the time and space to find out if he CAN be stretched out.

 

After watching them try to "develop SPs @ the big league level," but then watch Fulmer fail, Rodon fail, Lopez fail, and now Cease beginning the failure curve, Im fücking sick of watching the cavalcade of failure. You may be right that Hahn moronically wants to keep doing the same stupid shit with Crochet that they did with the others. But I keep praying that these imbeciles in the FO finally figure out how to bring young SPs into MLB, & get them to actually succeed.

What they've been doing just sucks, full stop.

I don't think they're sending Cease or Crochet down to work on anything.

You're also operating under the assumption that there will be a MILB season next year. With the way the pandemic is going I can't see fans in the stands again

[RagahRagah]

On 10/24/2020 at 11:50 AM, macsandz said:

By signing Keuchel and not kidnapping Wheeler with the highest ransom? 

Not "kidnapping" Wheeler is one. Yes, that was a failure.

Not nabbing any of the several available quality SP starters over the last 2 years aside from the 2 you mentioned, all of whom I named earlier in the thread, is the main thing. 

Not sure why this needs constant mentioning.

[The Hawk]

On 10/25/2020 at 10:24 AM, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yeah, I'd misremembered that. And you guys are right about not having burned an option. 

That said, I remain convinced that this club should:

1. let go of Gonzalez & Rodon, and sign Stroman and Q,

2. Send Cease to Charlotte to get his shit sorted using his last option,

3. Go stretch out Crochet in Birmingham or Charlotte, and

4. Sign another reliever, to give Crochet the time and space to find out if he CAN be stretched out.

 

After watching them try to "develop SPs @ the big league level," but then watch Fulmer fail, Rodon fail, Lopez fail, and now Cease beginning the failure curve, Im fücking sick of watching the cavalcade of failure. You may be right that Hahn moronically wants to keep doing the same stupid shit with Crochet that they did with the others. But I keep praying that these imbeciles in the FO finally figure out how to bring young SPs into MLB, & get them to actually succeed.

What they've been doing just sucks, full stop.

Fulmer did fail. Rodon got hurt bad(that isn't a fail in my book). Lopez hasn't failed(yet) NOt with a new pitching coach on the way anyway. Cease is also not a fail. I think that the Sox load of good arms at the major league level and high echelons of their minor league system is a STRENGTH of this team going forward not some kind of weakness. There will be a nice load of competition in spring training next season for a couple of starting jobs with somewhere around 6 legit guys battling it out. That's a good thing to me.

[Quin]

On 10/25/2020 at 1:43 PM, Vulture said:

I'm still trying to figure out why they eliminated the curveball from Lopez's repertoire. Because it worked with giolito is not a good reason but that's the only one I can come up with. It clearly didnt work out with Lopez. It was his best pitch when he came up with the Nats. I'd like to see if he can bounce back employing it before giving up on him.

It felt like Cooper just yanked curveballs out of every single pitcher's repertoire. Gio, Cease, and Lopez all came into the org with well regarded curves, then they disappeared. We were fortunate that Gio was able to reinvent himself into a pitcher that matched Cooper's philosophy. 

On 10/25/2020 at 3:39 PM, bmags said:

We haven’t had a pitcher use a curve aside from Gio who was way too established with it. I hope our pitching coach staff is better at coaching a wider array of pitches aside from fastball, change up, cutter

 

[The Hawk]

42 minutes ago, Quin said:

It felt like Cooper just yanked curveballs out of every single pitcher's repertoire. Gio, Cease, and Lopez all came into the org with well regarded curves, then they disappeared. We were fortunate that Gio was able to reinvent himself into a pitcher that matched Cooper's philosophy. 

 

Curveballs pretty much went the way of the dodo bird until the baseball "gods" decided to mess with baseball once again and create the new strike zone and baseball to bring the home run hitter back into the forefront.  It is pretty recent that the curve started to come back because under the old rules, umpires had much tighter strike zones and were not calling curve ball strikes basically. The era of change-ups and hard sliders developed. Now they changed the strike zones around and the curve ball is back to being developed. The other new "approach" is pitchers going higher up in the strike zone with hitters who have adjusted their swings to elevate the baseball and can't normally get around on a high strike in the zone now because their swing plain starts off lower than it was before.

[Quin]

20 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

Curveballs pretty much went the way of the dodo bird until the baseball "gods" decided to mess with baseball once again and create the new strike zone and baseball to bring the home run hitter back into the forefront.  It is pretty recent that the curve started to come back because under the old rules, umpires had much tighter strike zones and were not calling curve ball strikes basically. The era of change-ups and hard sliders developed. Now they changed the strike zones around and the curve ball is back to being developed. The other new "approach" is pitchers going higher up in the strike zone with hitters who have adjusted their swings to elevate the baseball and can't normally get around on a high strike in the zone now because their swing plain starts off lower than it was before.

No, Don Cooper just hated curveballs. Other teams still used them.

[The Hawk]

On 10/24/2020 at 3:40 AM, pcq said:

I don't think signing Bauer is realistic though they have been bidding in recent years. Do they have the operating capital right now. I don't see the ballparks opening until mid season with a lot of empty seats.

I think that the entire scenario about players thinking seriously about coming to the Sox and playing has changed dramatically in the last couple of years. The Sox, I think have established themselves as a good team and one which is on the rise. They are young and yet have a core of young veterans also. I know this. If I were a good pitcher, I would love to be pitching in front of an offensive juggernaut like the Sox have. Who wouldn't be. The thing is also is that they have a group of high end young pitching talent also in the system so the option of trading some of that talent for veteran  good players is also possible, 

 I have to think that Reinny wants to go out with a world series win or two before he kicks the bucket also. I'm hopeful that he doesn't pull defeat out of the jaws of victory and not give Hahn what he needs to win everything.

[The Hawk]

19 hours ago, RagahRagah said:

Not "kidnapping" Wheeler is one. Yes, that was a failure.

Not nabbing any of the several available quality SP starters over the last 2 years aside from the 2 you mentioned, all of whom I named earlier in the thread, is the main thing. 

Not sure why this needs constant mentioning.

I don't consider not getting Wheeler a failure. I think that they were a year away from contending in a full season. But a lot of things improved for this team in the silly season and next year they should go for it all by going hard for a couple of good veteran pitchers and this doesn't necessarily mean just via free agency but also by trade

[The Hawk]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

No, Don Cooper just hated curveballs. Other teams still used them.

I disagree. The shrunken strike zone killed a lot of the use of the curve ball at least as a strike pitch.

[RagahRagah]

36 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

I don't consider not getting Wheeler a failure. I think that they were a year away from contending in a full season. But a lot of things improved for this team in the silly season and next year they should go for it all by going hard for a couple of good veteran pitchers and this doesn't necessarily mean just via free agency but also by trade

A lot of things improved. Starting pitching is was not overall one of them. Wheeler was a big need. I don't know why you are trying to convince yourself of something we all know is true.

Edited October 27, 2020 by RagahRagah

[The Hawk]

3 hours ago, RagahRagah said:

A lot of things improved. Starting pitching is was not overall one of them. Wheeler was a big need. I don't know why you are trying to convince yourself of something we all know is true.

  Sure it was improved. Adding Kuechel gave them two front of the rotation starting pitchers which was better than they had in 2019. And they offered Wheeler a ton of money and the drop-off in quality after him was significant. Also, they were not anywhere ready to win a regular season championship last year pitching wise, with or without Wheeler. The fact is that this silly season was pretty much a Godsend for the Sox in that it basically allowed a lot of their young guys to face major league pitchers and their young pitchers to face established major league hitters and some of them blossomed as a result of it.

[RagahRagah]

11 hours ago, The Hawk said:

  Sure it was improved. Adding Kuechel gave them two front of the rotation starting pitchers which was better than they had in 2019. And they offered Wheeler a ton of money and the drop-off in quality after him was significant. Also, they were not anywhere ready to win a regular season championship last year pitching wise, with or without Wheeler. The fact is that this silly season was pretty much a Godsend for the Sox in that it basically allowed a lot of their young guys to face major league pitchers and their young pitchers to face established major league hitters and some of them blossomed as a result of it.

I was in support of Dallas from the beginning and I'm glad we got him. That said, you're lying to yourself if you're going to tell me you didn't realize that we needed more than just that. Granted on wheeler but you have to understand the obviously there's a problem with this franchise that needs to be fixed (we're on the right path at least) when we actually do offer the most money to someone and they still don't sign here.

You don't think that's a reflection on Hahn at all? LOL.

[yesterday333]

23 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

I was in support of Dallas from the beginning and I'm glad we got him. That said, you're lying to yourself if you're going to tell me you didn't realize that we needed more than just that. Granted on wheeler but you have to understand the obviously there's a problem with this franchise that needs to be fixed (we're on the right path at least) when we actually do offer the most money to someone and they still don't sign here.

You don't think that's a reflection on Hahn at all? LOL.

Last offseason we had a large group of young arms that needed innings in the bigs. Rodon, Lopez, Cease, Dunning and Kopech all were gonna need innings which doesn’t leave room for another high level starter. They got one TOR and a back end guy to fill innings. Things didn’t go well and we ended up needing another arm or 2 but you couldn’t block these guys from getting innings at that point in my opinion.

And with Wheeler we have no idea if the quality of the team came into the decision to take less money. It could’ve been a number of things including not liking Chicago or his wife wanted to be somewhere else or he liked other coaches or teammates from interacting with them in the past. Usually taking less $ has to do with more than just not wanting to play for a team...

[The Hawk]

On 10/25/2020 at 7:47 AM, soxfan49 said:

That's the point of this thread? I think all of us would rather have a better pitcher than Stroman, but with all things being considered, most of us have accepted that a player of Stroman's level is about the best we can expect this offseason, financially

Do we really know that? I'm not sure. Geritol Jerry may actually open the vault and sell some Bitcoins and gold:)

[GreenSox]

Stroman would probably be a capable rotation-filler.  But we should also get that with another year of maturity from Cease and Dunning (although Stroman would be less risk).  Nothing wrong with starting  pitching depth- they'll probably wish/be glad they had it at some point in 2021.