Shifts could be endangered

[southsider2k5]

 

[Nokona]

I think you bisect the field and only allow a CF to cross beyond 2nd.   For a lefty you could still have a SS as far as 2nd but no further until the ball crosses the plate.  

 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

Manfred's job should be endangered.

[flavum]

I used to be anti “ban the shift”, but I think it’s undeniable that the game has changed in the last 10 years for the worse. It’s smarter- can’t deny that- but it’s also more boring and harder to watch games outside of rooting for your own laundry. I’d like to see defensive restrictions that lead to more athleticism of infielders and are more fair to left handed hitters. We thought hitters would adjust to the shift. It didn’t happen. It’s time to consider defensive rules.
 

[Bob Sacamano]

21 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

"Not positive" = "less offense" apparently.

[chitownsportsfan]

16 minutes ago, flavum said:

I used to be anti “ban the shift”, but I think it’s undeniable that the game has changed in the last 10 years for the worse. It’s smarter- can’t deny that- but it’s also more boring and harder to watch games outside of rooting for your own laundry. I’d like to see defensive restrictions that lead to more athleticism of infielders and are more fair to left handed hitters. We thought hitters would adjust to the shift. It didn’t happen. It’s time to consider defensive rules.
 

The game has changed for the worse (three true outcome is boring AF) but the solution isn't to limit shifting it's to provide incentives against three true outcome.  Easier said than done but banning shifts isn't the answer.

[greg775]

The shift angers me beyond belief. Since it's against baseball's manly unwritten rules to bunt to beat the shift, I'd be all for banning it. If there were three guys standing on the right side of the infield and one guy standing at SS and we didn't bunt, our fricking Little League coach would kick our butts and never play us again. The all or nothing (HR or K) attitude of hitters to satisfy the stat people has been so bad for the game. Like you said, without our fervent desire to cheer for our beloved laundry baseball would be doomed. 

It has so many problems. Nine innings take 3.5 hours. Disgusting. If I wasn't hooked on my team, the White Sox, I'd never watch a game. I enjoy most everything about a Sox game. I DESPISE everything about any other games played. 

[Quin]

20 minutes ago, greg775 said:

The shift angers me beyond belief. Since it's against baseball's manly unwritten rules to bunt to beat the shift, I'd be all for banning it. If there were three guys standing on the right side of the infield and one guy standing at SS and we didn't bunt, our fricking Little League coach would kick our butts and never play us again. The all or nothing (HR or K) attitude of hitters to satisfy the stat people has been so bad for the game. Like you said, without our fervent desire to cheer for our beloved laundry baseball would be doomed. 

It has so many problems. Nine innings take 3.5 hours. Disgusting. If I wasn't hooked on my team, the White Sox, I'd never watch a game. I enjoy most everything about a Sox game. I DESPISE everything about any other games played. 

More bunting to beat the shift!

[chitownsportsfan]

You guys ever tried to bunt a ball coming in at over 90MPH?  Maybe go crank up the pitching machine at the batting cages see how consistently you can place one about 15 feet at a particular angle out in front of you.  If it was easy, they'd already be doing it.  You can count the amount of times a bunt beat the shift this year on one hand.

Some possible rules changes I would like to see that would encourage more balls in play: changing drag on the ball via the seams (increase drag), moving mound back (or lowering it) slightly, raising fences or moving fences back.  All things that are way less radical than banning defensive positioning.

Edited October 23, 2020 by chitownsportsfan

[Dick Allen]

I think if they do that, they should also ban hit and runs. That is basically forcing a shift and trying to hit the ball away from it. If more players just hit away from their shifts, it wouldn’t be so extreme. 

[Nokona]

20 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

You guys ever tried to bunt a ball coming in at over 90MPH?  Maybe go crank up the pitching machine at the batting cages see how consistently you can place one about 15 feet at a particular angle out in front of you.  If it was easy, they'd already be doing it.  You can count the amount of times a bunt beat the shift this year on one hand.

Some possible rules changes I would like to see that would encourage more balls in play: changing drag on the ball via the seams (increase drag), moving mound back (or lowering it) slightly, raising fences or moving fences back.  All things that are way less radical than banning defensive positioning.

I could easily bunt to beat the shift 99/100 times.  It's simple.

[ron883]

The "just bunt or hit the opposite way against the shift" argument reminds me a lot of people saying that certain big men need to just practice free throws more or shoot them underhanded in order to improve their free throw percentage. It is much easier said than done. I don't think these players are willfully not trying to beat the shift via bunting or shortening their swing to hit it throw the shift. That is just really freaking hard to do consistently. 

[YourWhatHurts]

Manfred is such a giant bag of shit.

I'm not going to rant on about this but I can't stand these damned rule changes that eliminate portions of the game which have evolved naturally within the proper context and spirit of the game.

Example, the 3 batters rule.  You give a manager 25 players to roster and he is likely going to pick 2 specialists, a lefty and a righty.  If you give him 5 or 6 less players then he won't, but with 25 or 26, you allow him to specialize and devote specialist players to specialized roles that are important enough to designate as being so special and worthwhile.  The lefty and righty specialist evolved naturally out of good competitive spirit. 

But of course everything about being a commissioner is about revenue and specifically appealing to a seemingly increasingly idiotic generation of people with constantly decreasing attention spans.  So of course the desire is to cater to these people because they have money.  But I don't give a shit about these people.  They're bandwagoners anyway, and for hardcore fans like me, I think the long length of the game and the long length of the season has a lot of appeal.  I like to work while having the games on, or put the game on the radio in the car.  It's a nice chunk of my day that is made more enjoyable by baseball, and I'm not going to b**** about the length of it.  I think a lot of people are like that.

Eliminating the shift or trying to is trying again to eliminate another element that evolved naturally within the spirit of the game.  Put a bunt down you stupid oaf if you don't like it.  Oh you can't bunt?  Ok fuck you then, hit the ball on the ground to the 3B playing SS.  Grab some bench.  That's excellent baseball and IMO isn't doing anything different than before.  People just record more information now and use it better but they could have spent all of the 1940s shifting if they wanted to.  

Eliminating cheating is great.  Improving accuracy of the umps by replacing them is great.  Making the game more fair for all teams is great.  A pitch clock is a great thing.  I would love for technology to be added that allowed the pitcher and catcher to communicate wirelessly by their own signals, but ONLY the pitcher and catcher, because adding the dugout into the game allows for micromanaging of everything and really ruins the spirit of the game of pitcher and catcher vs. hitter.  But adding tech to the game to make it more fair is great.

A pitch clock is great, but must be reasonable.  The pitch clock should be longer during the AB.  E.g. for the first 5 pitches it is X seconds between pitches, then for pitches 5-8 it is X+2 seconds allowance, and pitches 9-11 it is X+4, and pitches 12+ it is X+6 or something, to allow for extra thought to exist in moments of greater need for strategic thought.  But simply b****ing about the length of the game just because a bunch of dumb bandwagoner fans don't like and a bunch of people generally with the attention span of a fly can't handle it is really ruining the game for pitiful benefits.  

Think about these Yankees vs. Red Sox games that take like 4 hours because the lineups are stacked and every hitter is a tough out and every pitcher has to make a great pitch in like every AB.  When you stack a lineup full of great hitters then you are doing a great job as a FO.  And as a hitter, if you can survive deep into counts routinely, that makes you a great hitter.  As a P, it is one thing to fiddle with your hat and your ass for about half a minute off the rubber before getting back on it but also in the spirit of the game, the P should have the ability to set himself up mentally to make a tough pitch in a tough situation.  Really, these long games are often the result of some of the best of the best of the game playing each other.  This is a good thing.

I wish Manfred was a fly on the wall and I could just swat him.  He doesn't care about the game at all.

As far as the man on second rule, I actually don't hate it as much as I thought it would, but I would prefer a normal 10th, a man on 1st in the 11th, 2nd in the 12th, and a man on 3rd in 13th and beyond, or something like that, if the rule is going to stick.  And in this case I do not believe it harms the spirit of the game because it's about keeping players healthy and members of the pitching staff available for future games.  And I believe it should only apply in the regular season and should not apply in any game 163 or playoff game situations.

But anyway fuck Manfred with a rusty flag pole.

[YourWhatHurts]

40 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

You guys ever tried to bunt a ball coming in at over 90MPH?  Maybe go crank up the pitching machine at the batting cages see how consistently you can place one about 15 feet at a particular angle out in front of you.  If it was easy, they'd already be doing it.  You can count the amount of times a bunt beat the shift this year on one hand.

Some possible rules changes I would like to see that would encourage more balls in play: changing drag on the ball via the seams (increase drag), moving mound back (or lowering it) slightly, raising fences or moving fences back.  All things that are way less radical than banning defensive positioning.

Lower the mound wtf?

Raise the mound and protect the pitcher.

I agree with moving the fences back.  I also like the idea of a lot more foul territory.  I love watching athletic defenders and there's really no reason to put them out there if everyone is going to play in a bandbox.

 

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Lower the mound wtf?

Raise the mound and protect the pitcher.

I agree with moving the fences back.  I also like the idea of a lot more foul territory.  I love watching athletic defenders and there's really no reason to put them out there if everyone is going to play in a bandbox.

 

Whoops that was meant to be raised.  Thanks for pointing it out.

[ron883]

1 minute ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Lower the mound wtf?

Raise the mound and protect the pitcher.

I agree with moving the fences back.  I also like the idea of a lot more foul territory.  I love watching athletic defenders and there's really no reason to put them out there if everyone is going to play in a bandbox.

 

More pop ups, less seats and fans even further away from the players. Yippee.

[The Hawk]

7 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

      If they ban shifts it is ridiculous. Let the players learn to adjust because to do anything different is interfering with the fabric of baseball. What's next? flattening the mound? Bringing the fences in some more? Let the hitters use the SamME Sosa autographed corked bat? 

[The Hawk]

8 hours ago, flavum said:

I used to be anti “ban the shift”, but I think it’s undeniable that the game has changed in the last 10 years for the worse. It’s smarter- can’t deny that- but it’s also more boring and harder to watch games outside of rooting for your own laundry. I’d like to see defensive restrictions that lead to more athleticism of infielders and are more fair to left handed hitters. We thought hitters would adjust to the shift. It didn’t happen. It’s time to consider defensive rules.
 

  I'm against changing the rules of the game because the players won't adapt. Adapt or be replaced by someone who will adapt. Shifts have been done in baseball before throughout history. To me this may be the unions talking because they are afraid that the player performance is suffering. Well, to me that is tough. Anyone ask the pitchers what they think about changing the rules regarding defensive positioning? What is next? Maybe if a hitter has two strikes on him, they bring a tee out and let the batter hit off of a tee?

[TheBlackSox8]

Relegate infielders to their side of the field.  You can still do shifts, but at a cost.   Teams will have to bring a CF in to play short outfield behind short or second, while the infielder takes a deeper part of their side of the field covering CF basically.  So for lefties, bring the CF in to play a Right CF trajectory, but at the or around the grass, and the second baseman can play a deeper second base.  This allows for shifts still, but your risking it with moving positions of the opposite infielder and CF.  I might be able to compromise it to that position.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

16 hours ago, Nokona said:

I think you bisect the field and only allow a CF to cross beyond 2nd.   For a lefty you could still have a SS as far as 2nd but no further until the ball crosses the plate.  

 

 

Why? This is absurd. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

16 hours ago, flavum said:

I used to be anti “ban the shift”, but I think it’s undeniable that the game has changed in the last 10 years for the worse. It’s smarter- can’t deny that- but it’s also more boring and harder to watch games outside of rooting for your own laundry. I’d like to see defensive restrictions that lead to more athleticism of infielders and are more fair to left handed hitters. We thought hitters would adjust to the shift. It didn’t happen. It’s time to consider defensive rules.
 

Yeah poor lefties; it must be physically impossible to hit the ball the other way ?. 

Instead we should reward players who sell out to the pull side and aren't as complete of players.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

15 hours ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

The "just bunt or hit the opposite way against the shift" argument reminds me a lot of people saying that certain big men need to just practice free throws more or shoot them underhanded in order to improve their free throw percentage. It is much easier said than done. I don't think these players are willfully not trying to beat the shift via bunting or shortening their swing to hit it throw the shift. That is just really freaking hard to do consistently. 

Players don't try to beat the shift because it would involve them changing their swing and approach; Ryan Howard wasn't going to lay down a bunt and forgo trying to do damage with his power. 

Chitown has really inflated the difficulty of bunting by world class hitters who make contact with the ball while their bat is moving. If I could bunt 90+ MPH pitches consistently, so can world class hitters even if they haven't practiced. The fact is, they don't want to and it's because it would limit the damage they can do.

[Bob Sacamano]

Some of those shifts on Muncy, where there are 4 outfielders and no one on the left side of the infield, are doubles if he bunts it hard anywhere on the left side.

[Middle Buffalo]

Nothing to do with the shift, but since other changes have been introduced here, I’ll add that I hate pitch framing. I don’t understand why an ump would call it a strike if he can see that the catcher pulled his mitt into the middle of the strike zone. 
 

The shift is very frustrating as a fan (especially with hard hit ground balls/liners that would’ve been hits with a traditional configuration), but players should be skilled enough to slap singles away from the shift. Do it enough, and the defense will have to adjust.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Middle Buffalo

[Quin]

10 minutes ago, Middle Buffalo said:

Nothing to do with the shift, but since other changes have been introduced here, I’ll add that I hate pitch framing. I don’t understand why an ump would call it a strike if he can see that the catcher pulled his mitt into the middle of the strike zone. 
 

The shift is very frustrating as a fan (especially with hard hit ground balls/liners that would’ve been hits with a traditional configuration), but players should be skilled enough to slap singles away from the shift. Do it enough, and the defense will have to adjust.

The whole point is that umps are so bad, they don't catch it until after the catcher has framed it.