2020 Election Thoughts

[NWINFan]

40 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

How about using the 25th. It's time.

 

 

 

Donald J. Trump

 

@realDonaldTrump

· 1h

“REPORT: DOMINION DELETED 2.7 MILLION TRUMP VOTES NATIONWIDE. DATA ANALYSIS FINDS 221,000 PENNSYLVANIA VOTES SWITCHED FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP TO BIDEN. 941,000 TRUMP VOTES DELETED. STATES USING DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS SWITCHED 435,000 VOTES FROM TRUMP TO BIDEN.” @ChanelRion @OANN

Good suggestion about using the 25th although it should have been done the first day he was in office. But yes, he is no longer fit to serve in the office. A pandemic is rampaging, and he is feeling sorry for himself for getting beat in an honest and fair election. This is no time for moping. Time for real action to be taken. 

[Danny Dravot]

23 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

If you're going make stuff up about our discussion, at least tell the whole the story.  The level of disingenuity is beyond absurd. 

That's how I remember the conversation. If you had a different perception of it, you're welcome to share.

[pettie4sox]

2 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

That's how I remember the conversation. If you had a different perception of it, you're welcome to share.

It's irrelevant but if you're going to dunk on someone you should be sure you have the air time to make it to the rim. ?

[he gone.]

Yowzas. 

 

So tribal. No need to be so tribal. Boil it down ... if this was like a blind A/B thing for picking whos the better baseball player based on results with no context, media, talking, etc. then I think people would be surprised what they pick as a "Good" or "bad" president.

 

In general I'd say that social issues are trending towards good and economic issues are trending towards bad. That's the case over a few decades. It doesn't really matter what president is at the top. It all stems back more so to how we educate, mobilize & incentivize entrepreneurs, and retain/re-train as technology grows. That's it folks. If we do those things well then we have ourselves an overall better life at home with our families and create long term happiness. 

 

All the other things stem from a few things (money) and grow and grow until they get to the size we are now

The reason small towns are so red is because they're not very informed. Same wtih the reason big cities are blue ... not very informed. Neither side is going to fix your problems. If you go to a small town where manufacturing gave families lives and see what they are now? it's a disaster - boarded up buildings, generally its just a few families that control the grocery stores, hardware stores, etc. & sometimes not even that since a Wal-Mart and Amazon have eaten into it. Those towns are desolate & many times have drug issues. poor education, etc. They feel pitted against "big cities" and they tend to dig in to what they know (or dont know) which is to say they see big companies, big money, change, etc. as all bad. So they cling to RED. It's a falsehood. 

In big cities they see the opposite view. They say we need to help everybody! we need to give education for free, we need to give housing to homeless, we need to decriminalize drugs and build programs. And again, they see their view as right, no other way. They think anybody voting red is vailed racism, uneducated, and selfish not wanting to help people. Which again, isn't really true. Money doesn't fix issues. giving someone rent controlled or subsidized housing doesnt change the fact they have no ownership or way out of their hourly wage. if you have no assets to your name and your stuck in a vicous cycle, youll be stuck forever. Whcih is why you see the southside and west side the way they are. But in large part many of those residents will continue to vote BLUE beacuse of the promise of free stuff. 

These are all bi-partisan ideas that should be fixed:

education needs to be overhauled. people all learn different. some are visual, some need to physically move stuff, some brains are entrepreneurial, etc. We take all kids and stick them in a square hole when they're all round. Each is different. Just like teachers. Teachers are all different too. We should have like minded teachers teaching like minded students. Memorizing just doesn't advance us. We need to learn the basics (root) and then branch out to each kids advantage to build a society that is vibrant & that utlize each persons skill sets. 

Money needs to be overhauled - i've touched on this a hundred times i feel like - but the current money system doesn't work. we are wildly more efficient than we were 30 years ago, but overall, our pay has not gone up in lock step with that. the people at the top have every advantage and that needs to be overhauled. People at the bottom need to be given property/houses and learn to take ownership of something. take pride in an asset. build wealth for the next generation.

Health - we need a healthy society - which ties into schools. we need such a bigger focus on how to eat, move around, etc. it should be a giant part of our lives. it should be a focus. Which then in ties to free healthcare. it should be a right, but we shouldn't be spending money wildly because everybody is eating oreos and mcdonalds as a fat America and developing diabetes and heart problems. 

Green - again i'm not a democrat or a repbulican. Im a realist. our most important asset is the earth. we are stewards for the earth and we should treat it as such. we make money off of every other industry, making money off the earth should be one too. We do it now, but it's just extracting from the earth. We should be adding to it. The best thing we can do is leave teh earth better htan we found it for the next generation. if we can do that and make money/create a new incentive system then we should be doing that. This can get people back to work.   

 

[pcq]

2 hours ago, NWINFan said:

Good suggestion about using the 25th although it should have been done the first day he was in office. But yes, he is no longer fit to serve in the office. A pandemic is rampaging, and he is feeling sorry for himself for getting beat in an honest and fair election. This is no time for moping. Time for real action to be taken. 

The story was all verified on Parler and Facebook.

[pcq]

2 hours ago, pettie4sox said:

If you're going make stuff up about our discussion, at least tell the whole the story.  The level of disingenuity is beyond absurd. 

I had the same experience so I withdrew.

[Danny Dravot]

17 minutes ago, pcq said:

I had the same experience so I withdrew.

Haha. If you want to masquerade as some sort of class act, you should probably take down your post about wanting to punch Kayleigh McEnany in the face, tough guy.

[southsider2k5]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

How about using the 25th. It's time.

 

 

 

Donald J. Trump

 

@realDonaldTrump

· 1h

“REPORT: DOMINION DELETED 2.7 MILLION TRUMP VOTES NATIONWIDE. DATA ANALYSIS FINDS 221,000 PENNSYLVANIA VOTES SWITCHED FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP TO BIDEN. 941,000 TRUMP VOTES DELETED. STATES USING DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS SWITCHED 435,000 VOTES FROM TRUMP TO BIDEN.” @ChanelRion @OANN

Dominion sure doesn't think so.

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/11/12/election-2020-voting-fraud-trump-denver/

[Texsox]

5 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

I was arguing with someone in this thread the other day who opposed the Electoral College because it was easily manipulated. He claimed that Silicon Valley could relocate to the Dakotas and Wyoming and turn those EC votes blue. I pointed out that it would take a lot of companies moving their entire worldwide operations into those states, all of their workers being reliable Democrats and accepting a move from Santa Monica to Laramie in the first place, and I got told that I was playing checkers instead of chess.

I’m sure somebody on Twitter is raving about this great idea where an ideologically monolithic equivalent of a small city pack up their entire lives in a matter of weeks to secure a desired political result, but beyond the likely illegality of it as a tactic, most people don’t operate that way.

Yeah I enjoy my gun rights but if my state came up with slightly more restrictive laws on that topic, I’d cast my vote against those legislators and be done with it. I wouldn’t quit my job, make my wife quit hers, pull my kids out of school and move to another state I’ve never been to.

Oh, and one more thing, as ridiculous as that would be, it would actually work. If I though California’s gun laws were arduous, moving to Texas would be an immediate improvement, at least in that one small part of life. Enough people are never going to move to sway an election; you’d screw up your life AND fail to obtain your goal.

You are 90% correct. It is great you mentioned Texas. With Austin attracting more and more high tech companies and California getting too expensive to live Texas is growing at a very rapid pace. Last estimate the people moving in are about 75% liberal leaning. Combined with a growing immigrant population that legally votes Dem, Texas is becoming a battleground state.

It's not homegrown ideology.

[Danny Dravot]

36 minutes ago, Texsox said:

You are 90% correct. It is great you mentioned Texas. With Austin attracting more and more high tech companies and California getting too expensive to live Texas is growing at a very rapid pace. Last estimate the people moving in are about 75% liberal leaning. Combined with a growing immigrant population that legally votes Dem, Texas is becoming a battleground state.

It's not homegrown ideology.

Demographics change naturally, and voting trends change as a result. That's totally understandable. It was only a couple of decades ago that George HW Bush did this (NJ and Idaho on the same page????) and even more recently that Bill Clinton did this (Arkansas and Cali going together????).

We take a lot of the current map for granted and just focus on WI/MI/PA/OH as the end all, be all, and everything else is a mega surprise when it doesn't go in its supposedly promised direction. But by 2040, the map is going to be completely revamped. As a right-leaning moderate, I think this system is great because it favors moderation. More immigration coming from south of the border? Well, Republicans are going to have to appeal to them. Nothing about being born poor in Guadalajara and struggling to learn a new language in a new country guarantees you to vote left, but in our current system it usually turns out that way. With the right message, Rs can change that. At the same time, Democrats got a nasty lesson in FL this round; I don't like AOC but she's still a long way from Castro- yet, try telling a Cuban in Miami that! So Ds will have to tailor their message or risk Florida becoming more permanently red.

A Republican party that insists it is now the party of Trump will quickly lose relevance and die. A Democratic party that leans too far towards progressivism will do the same. Centrism is where it's at.

[pettie4sox]

2 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

Demographics change naturally, and voting trends change as a result. That's totally understandable. It was only a couple of decades ago that George HW Bush did this (NJ and Idaho on the same page????) and even more recently that Bill Clinton did this (Arkansas and Cali going together????).

We take a lot of the current map for granted and just focus on WI/MI/PA/OH as the end all, be all, and everything else is a mega surprise when it doesn't go in its supposedly promised direction. But by 2040, the map is going to be completely revamped. As a right-leaning moderate, I think this system is great because it favors moderation. More immigration coming from south of the border? Well, Republicans are going to have to appeal to them. Nothing about being born poor in Guadalajara and struggling to learn a new language in a new country guarantees you to vote left, but in our current system it usually turns out that way. With the right message, Rs can change that. At the same time, Democrats got a nasty lesson in FL this round; I don't like AOC but she's still a long way from Castro- yet, try telling a Cuban in Miami that! So Ds will have to tailor their message or risk Florida becoming more permanently red.

A Republican party that insists it is now the party of Trump will quickly lose relevance and die. A Democratic party that leans too far towards progressivism will do the same. Centrism is where it's at.

Fun fact, no progressive whos supported progressive policies lost their house seat.  It was in fact the centrist losers who stood for nothing that lost their seats.  How does Florida vote for a $15 min/wage yet Trump won the state.  How did Biden win Illinois yet a "fair tax" lost pretty handedly?  I think people throw around words to scare people when a majority of the country supports progressive policies.  It's just both dems and repubs love to use proverbial boogeyman to scare low iq voters on both spectrums.

[whitesoxfan99]

8 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

Fun fact, no progressive whos supported progressive policies lost their house seat.  It was in fact the centrist losers who stood for nothing that lost their seats.  How does Florida vote for a $15 min/wage yet Trump won the state.  How did Biden win Illinois yet a "fair tax" lost pretty handedly?  I think people throw around words to scare people when a majority of the country supports progressive policies.  It's just both dems and repubs love to use proverbial boogeyman to scare low iq voters on both spectrums.

Democrats are horrendous at marketing.  Defunding the police is actually a popular policy but it is the worst branding in history.  
 

And unrelated to your post, I’m getting very concerned the Republican Party, Trump and Fox News are doing irreparable damage to the country.  Hard to see a way back from a huge amount of people legitimately believing crack pot conspiracy theories over actual news and a party pushing election fraud with zero basis whatsoever.  Ideally that party would be burned to the ground and have a new Conservative party that is complete trash take it’s place.

[pettie4sox]

9 minutes ago, whitesoxfan99 said:

Democrats are horrendous at marketing.  Defunding the police is actually a popular policy but it is the worst branding in history.  
 

And unrelated to your post, I’m getting very concerned the Republican Party, Trump and Fox News are doing irreparable damage to the country.  Hard to see a way back from a huge amount of people legitimately believing crack pot conspiracy theories over actual news and a party pushing election fraud with zero basis whatsoever.  Ideally that party would be burned to the ground and have a new Conservative party that is complete trash take it’s place.

100% agree.  The people who are cheerleading Biden will be surprised when a more competent Trump is elected in 4 years because dems govern " on " safely...

[Danny Dravot]

38 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

Fun fact, no progressive whos supported progressive policies lost their house seat.  It was in fact the centrist losers who stood for nothing that lost their seats.  How does Florida vote for a $15 min/wage yet Trump won the state.  How did Biden win Illinois yet a "fair tax" lost pretty handedly?  I think people throw around words to scare people when a majority of the country supports progressive policies.  It's just both dems and repubs love to use proverbial boogeyman to scare low iq voters on both spectrums.

Matt Gaetz also kept his house seat. Marjorie Greene got into one. Is that because voters are obsessed with progressive policies? No. It’s because smaller house districts enable more heavily ideological candidates. AOC will retain NY-14 as long as she wants it, and those two Republican dingbats will do the same in theirs. However, none of them will ever be successful in running for statewide office. I’d put money on that.

Progressivism isn’t as popular as you think. If it was, they’d have taken the Senate easily in a year with a favorable map and a historically unpopular incumbent opponent at the top of the ticket. But they likely won’t. And contrary to your condescending claims, it’s not because the evil mainstream parties brainwash the stupid rubes. How does that even come across as a convincing or endearing argument in your mind?

@whitesoxfan99 what does “defund the police” (the popular concept) mean to you? How has it been marketed in your perception? I’m not trying to set you up, I’m legit curious what you think. Personally, I think Americans like the idea of taking some tasks away from police to make their jobs easier while providing more optimal responses to certain situations, but there have also been many of the hoi polloi who act like “defund the police” means they go away entirely.

 

[pettie4sox]

59 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

Fun fact, no progressive whos supported progressive policies lost their house seat.  It was in fact the centrist losers who stood for nothing that lost their seats.  How does Florida vote for a $15 min/wage yet Trump won the state.  How did Biden win Illinois yet a "fair tax" lost pretty handedly?  I think people throw around words to scare people when a majority of the country supports progressive policies.  It's just both dems and repubs love to use proverbial boogeyman to scare low iq voters on both spectrums.

Edited November 13, 2020 by pettie4sox

[pettie4sox]

5 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

Matt Gaetz also kept his house seat. Marjorie Greene got into one. Is that because voters are obsessed with progressive policies? No. It’s because smaller house districts enable more heavily ideological candidates. AOC will retain NY-14 as long as she wants it, and those two Republican dingbats will do the same in theirs. However, none of them will ever be successful in running for statewide office. I’d put money on that.

Progressivism isn’t as popular as you think. If it was, they’d have taken the Senate easily in a year with a favorable map and a historically unpopular incumbent opponent at the top of the ticket. But they likely won’t. And contrary to your condescending claims, it’s not because the evil mainstream parties brainwash the stupid rubes. How does that even come across as a convincing or endearing argument in your mind?

@whitesoxfan99 what does “defund the police” (the popular concept) mean to you? How has it been marketed in your perception? I’m not trying to set you up, I’m legit curious what you think. Personally, I think Americans like the idea of taking some tasks away from police to make their jobs easier while providing more optimal responses to certain situations, but there have also been many of the hoi polloi who act like “defund the police” means they go away entirely.

 

Give it up dawg, the country doesn't agree with you.

 

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/412545-70-percent-of-americans-support-medicare-for-all-health-care

 

You may argue this is not progressive policy if you want.  It could be seen as moderate since a majority believe in it.

[Danny Dravot]

6 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

Give it up dawg, the country doesn't agree with you.

 

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/412545-70-percent-of-americans-support-medicare-for-all-health-care

 

You may argue this is not progressive policy if you want.  It could be seen as moderate since a majority believe in it.

Really, a poll? Those are getting a great rep these days. What else happened recently that might demonstrate how Americans actually feel about progressive policies? I think there was something, but I can’t put my finger on it.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

1 hour ago, whitesoxfan99 said:

Democrats are horrendous at marketing.  Defunding the police is actually a popular policy but it is the worst branding in history.  
 

When that phrasing first popped up, I thought it had to have originated at some Russian troll farm. So many better ways.

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

Demographics change naturally, and voting trends change as a result. That's totally understandable. It was only a couple of decades ago that George HW Bush did this (NJ and Idaho on the same page????) and even more recently that Bill Clinton did this (Arkansas and Cali going together????).

We take a lot of the current map for granted and just focus on WI/MI/PA/OH as the end all, be all, and everything else is a mega surprise when it doesn't go in its supposedly promised direction. But by 2040, the map is going to be completely revamped. As a right-leaning moderate, I think this system is great because it favors moderation. More immigration coming from south of the border? Well, Republicans are going to have to appeal to them. Nothing about being born poor in Guadalajara and struggling to learn a new language in a new country guarantees you to vote left, but in our current system it usually turns out that way. With the right message, Rs can change that. At the same time, Democrats got a nasty lesson in FL this round; I don't like AOC but she's still a long way from Castro- yet, try telling a Cuban in Miami that! So Ds will have to tailor their message or risk Florida becoming more permanently red.

A Republican party that insists it is now the party of Trump will quickly lose relevance and die. A Democratic party that leans too far towards progressivism will do the same. Centrism is where it's at.

1. In 2000, you would have said "The map 8 years from now will be completely revamped" and based on every election in recent history it would have been true. We've now spent 20 years with basically the exact same map, with a handful of states switching side to side. 

2. This system favors moderation? Did the last 4 years not happen? 

[Chisoxfn]

2 hours ago, whitesoxfan99 said:

Democrats are horrendous at marketing.  Defunding the police is actually a popular policy but it is the worst branding in history.  
 

And unrelated to your post, I’m getting very concerned the Republican Party, Trump and Fox News are doing irreparable damage to the country.  Hard to see a way back from a huge amount of people legitimately believing crack pot conspiracy theories over actual news and a party pushing election fraud with zero basis whatsoever.  Ideally that party would be burned to the ground and have a new Conservative party that is complete trash take it’s place.

When you say defund the police - I presume you mean police reform?  If so, horrible branding is right.  If you mean defund the police in the more literal sense, than no I don't believe that defunding the police is a popular policy at all.  

[pettie4sox]

2 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

When you say defund the police - I presume you mean police reform?  Cause I don't believe that defunding the police is a popular policy at all (in terms of the more extremist views on truly defunding the police).  

I would say the police reform is absolutely needed.  The defund the police is worst branding than calling basic human rights socialism.

[Chisoxfn]

2 hours ago, whitesoxfan99 said:

Democrats are horrendous at marketing.  Defunding the police is actually a popular policy but it is the worst branding in history.  
 

And unrelated to your post, I’m getting very concerned the Republican Party, Trump and Fox News are doing irreparable damage to the country.  Hard to see a way back from a huge amount of people legitimately believing crack pot conspiracy theories over actual news and a party pushing election fraud with zero basis whatsoever.  Ideally that party would be burned to the ground and have a new Conservative party that is complete trash take it’s place.

So I truly wonder how many actual people buy into what you are saying and are buying the Trump story.  I'd say in general, between my family and friends, I have a number of acquaintances on each side of the aisle.  I personally was a longtime republican who is now a registered independent. A never trumper who has actually probably voted for republicans in a minority of the cases over past 2 elections (prior to that - I'd say I probably voted 75% red and 25% blue).  

But I do know pretty closely about 10 people who voted for Trump. I'd caveat of those 10, 7 or 8 never really liked Trump, but when he got elected, they did seem to think he did a decent job. They never liked much anything he said, but underneath it, they were fans of tax reform (felt it was good for business), they were fans of how he was being aggressive on the trade front (Felt it was about time someone stood for America on International Trade) and a few other things, but those were probably their main views and they were fine with it. Yeah he said stuff that they didn't like and he handled himself in various ways, but underneath that, they were okay with him because he did the things I mentioned above (and note - the intent of this is to try to give some people the views on the other side that are beyond what MSNBC will tell you).  

Now of those 10 people - 9 of them think Biden won fair and square and the election is over.  Period. Not even a debate.  They have all acknowledge Trump has the right to go through procedural revotes and if there is actual voter fraud - fine, go handle it, but none of them think there is and that is that. There is one outlier - but his is less about the voter election and more on the fact that the media is entirely rigged and if the sides / roles were reversed and one of the Trump kids did what Hunter did - well he'd be in the gulag type of a thing. 

Anyway - the long ramblings are to kind of point out - yeah, I get it, there are people who are absurd and think the election is rigged, but I don't think anywhere near half of the country (i.e., those who voted for Trump) all think the election was rigged. That is the voice of a minority subset which is being magnified, both good and bad by various news outlets. Its kind of interesting - I really wonder what would happen if the media literally didn't cover any of the fake stuff Trump said.

The problem is - everyone is creating a platform for these idiots (and I get it - because as I've said for 20 years - Trump is a joke and no one should listen to one word he says - total blowhard ahole).  I say let the idiots be the idiots - don't watch, leave them alone, and the act will dissapear.  Instead - we'll see protests and others will join in or fight it and the situation will compound and a bigger shit storm will happen.  What oh what would poor Trump do if he never got any attention? 

[Chisoxfn]

8 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

I would say the police reform is absolutely needed.  The defund the police is worst branding than calling basic human rights socialism.

Sorry - I reread that and I realize my post may have been construed as saying police reform is not needed. I meant to say it absolutely is needed - so if white was saying that everyone supports defund the policy - if by defund the policy he means that is literally the same as police reform - than yeah, that is awful branding.  

I may be naive, but I always thought defund the police was the more extreme term that was thrown by a much smaller minority of people who want I guess far more radical police reform.  I think the reality is most of this nation supports police reform, including politicians on both side of the aisle - to different levels.  

[pettie4sox]

3 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Sorry - I reread that and I realize my post may have been construed as saying police reform is not needed. I meant to say it absolutely is needed - so if white was saying that everyone supports defund the policy - if by defund the policy he means that is literally the same as police reform - than yeah, that is awful branding.  

I may be naive, but I always thought defund the police was the more extreme term that was thrown by a much smaller minority of people who want I guess far more radical police reform.  I think the reality is most of this nation supports police reform, including politicians on both side of the aisle - to different levels.  

I just hate that we have become the laughing stock of the world when it comes to basic rights for a developed country.  The whole world protested george floyd, that in itself is shows how glaring that incident was.  Of course there are worse things that happen in lesser developed countries, I'm not saying that at all.

[Chisoxfn]

3 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

I just hate that we have become the laughing stock of the world when it comes to basic rights for a developed country.  The whole world protested george floyd, that in itself is shows how glaring that incident was.  Of course there are worse things that happen in lesser developed countries, I'm not saying that at all.

No disagreement out of me. It is why I'm really excited to turn the page on 2020 and move into 2021. I am still extremely hopeful and optimistic that despite the shit start, we can make 2020 an incredible decade as a nation and as a world!