2020 Election Thoughts

[Soxbadger]

 

If you give him 5 minutes hell always find a way to act even more unhinged.

 

[Kyyle23]

Lol.  The man has never been told he has been fired, he only quit and walked away his entire life.   Doesn't get it 

[Danny Dravot]

21 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

 

If you give him 5 minutes hell always find a way to act even more unhinged.

 

Look, as a guy who still holds moderately conservative views and generally favors Republicans, I fully support this guy attacking Republicans and doing whatever he can to distance himself from us.

[The Beast]

12 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Personally, I think that if the Democrats win both Georgia seats, their legislative agenda would still be somewhat limited at least in year 1, because there’s a legit crisis. It’s going to be hard to hold 8 months of hearings to develop major new health care policy in the middle of this nightmare.

The things I think you would see are:

1. A major stimulus and recovery bill similar to the Cares act, with money for schools, restaurants and bars, small businesses, health care firms that have been damaged, the unemployed, and another round of checks to everyone. Perhaps some long term back to work projects get included as stuff to spend money on.

2. The DREAM act. It’s been written for 10 years, it could have gotten 60+ votes in the Senate every single year but McConnell will never bring it up because the people it helps aren’t white. It takes zero work and it is a good win for people.

3. Some minor tweaks on health care and immigration, clear fixes that have become obvious about how the program is running. For example, something has to be done now that the Republicans changed the individual mandate in their tax increase bill.

4. probably a few things to codify things that presidents other than Trump never did, like making it illegal to have a president owning businesses that are taking direct payments from foreign governments.

5. A lot of other stuff related to the virus crisis. There should be a bipartisan commission created to investigate the government response, there may need to be changes to the CDC or other contracts with businesses, and that will take an awful lot of congressional time.

Getting to anything big beyond that requires ending the current crisis. Until that is over, you won’t see a major new tax bill or healthcare bill.

Thanks for these thoughts, I have been trying to think through what they can get done. Assuming they can at least pick up one seat, I think McConnell gets the stimulus package done with Biden.

I obviously would love to see the Gang of Eight’s immigration legislation to be brought up again with some tweaks to modernize it but it is entirely up to McConnell if he wants to allow Biden to get some wins. Hopefully he does because republican members get things in the process. I do wonder what they will get from negotiations that they want. 

12 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

I totally agree with this. I’m not thrilled about Biden but I did vote for him and his likely SecDef, Michele Flournoy, is like ideological viagra for me. I despise Trump’s character more than his policies (for the most part). If I had a rooting interest in this election, it was a Biden win with a Republican Senate, so I’m sitting pretty right now.

What are your thoughts on McConnell blocking legislation from being voted on since 2013? This isn’t meant to be partisan, there are some legitimate bills that have died when they have reached his desk. 

10 hours ago, pettie4sox said:

Maybe I just want to see them get obliterated before I assume.  I just think it's funny how people like Kasich claim the "far left" (whatever that means) almost cost Joe Biden the election when the evidence is contrary to that.  I get that people are scared of big change but IMO it's long overdue.  People are suffering out there and without bold legislation, the cycle of our failed state will continue.  Democrats should have been able to punch their ticket to senate but yet the likes of Graham, McConnell and Collins cruised to re-election... Why is that?  Maybe name calling and saying I'm not Trump doesn't resonate with as many people as they thought.

I agree the DNC needs to hire a top tier marketing firm to brand their ideas because whoever it is now has been failing at their job miserably.  You can't even get the DNC to unite against a candidate like Trump.  That speaks volumes.

What do you feel is the best way to make moderates and progressives play along together?

10 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

So, y'all are basically proving our point that any sort of Buster type thread devolves into *waves hand around* .....this.  So thanks for that.

I know there is a shelf life to this thread, but I hope that you see that some of us legitimately want to learn from the discussion and that some of this conversation has been productive. I’m trying to behave.?

[Danny Dravot]

@The Beast he should deny progressive action. People can argue until they’re blue in the face, but if America wanted progressive policy, Americans would have given Ds the Senate, especially considering how favorable the map was this year. McConnell should, however, work on bipartisan issues. This idea that things can’t happen unless one party has all the branches on lock down is anathema. Balance of power is supposed to encourage compromise, consensus and moderation; it’s not a trick to halt everything until one side develops monolithic power.

[pettie4sox]

51 minutes ago, The Beast said:

What do you feel is the best way to make moderates and progressives play along together?

Personally I think they should just start their own party and let the democrats continue to be republicans.  

https://peoplesparty.org/

[pettie4sox]

38 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

@The Beast he should deny progressive action. People can argue until they’re blue in the face, but if America wanted progressive policy, Americans would have given Ds the Senate, especially considering how favorable the map was this year. McConnell should, however, work on bipartisan issues. This idea that things can’t happen unless one party has all the branches on lock down is anathema. Balance of power is supposed to encourage compromise, consensus and moderation; it’s not a trick to halt everything until one side develops monolithic power.

I guess it depends on what you mean by progressive action.  You can use a label for anything that really doesn't mean anything.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, The Beast said:

Thanks for these thoughts, I have been trying to think through what they can get done. Assuming they can at least pick up one seat, I think McConnell gets the stimulus package done with Biden.

I obviously would love to see the Gang of Eight’s immigration legislation to be brought up again with some tweaks to modernize it but it is entirely up to McConnell if he wants to allow Biden to get some wins. Hopefully he does because republican members get things in the process. I do wonder what they will get from negotiations that they want. 

What are your thoughts on McConnell blocking legislation from being voted on since 2013? This isn’t meant to be partisan, there are some legitimate bills that have died when they have reached his desk. 

What do you feel is the best way to make moderates and progressives play along together?

I know there is a shelf life to this thread, but I hope that you see that some of us legitimately want to learn from the discussion and that some of this conversation has been productive. I’m trying to behave.?

If McConnell keeps the Senate, I expect zero cooperation. McConnell will believe correctly that if he provides no relief he will trigger a depression with rapidly increasing unemployment. 4 years of that drop later the job loss will expand throughout the economy, and even if Biden wanted to do more McConnell will expect Biden to be blamed as Americans don’t pay enough attention to policy. McConnell will believe the best thing for the Republicans is 12%, 14%, or higher unemployment - the deeper the crisis, the more the Democrats will be blamed, so he will be rewarded if he can trigger a true great depression with 30% unemployment. Similarly, he will oppose anything that gives more votes to non whites, because as a true white supremacist he does not want to dilute the white vote that supports him. Therefore, Biden can undo Trumps executive orders, but not fix the laws.

[Danny Dravot]

34 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

I guess it depends on what you mean by progressive action.  You can use a label for anything that really doesn't mean anything.

M4A, GND, free college and debt forgiveness, housing for all, internet for all, and so on.

[pettie4sox]

7 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

M4A, GND, free college and debt forgiveness, housing for all, internet for all, and so on.

Those are not really progressive policies, they are moderate because more than 50% of the country agrees on them.  You could argue defund the police and abolish ice are progressive as they are significantly below 50%.

[Danny Dravot]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If McConnell keeps the Senate, I expect zero cooperation. McConnell will believe correctly that if he provides no relief he will trigger a depression with rapidly increasing unemployment. 4 years of that drop later the job loss will expand throughout the economy, and even if Biden wanted to do more McConnell will expect Biden to be blamed as Americans don’t pay enough attention to policy. McConnell will believe the best thing for the Republicans is 12%, 14%, or higher unemployment - the deeper the crisis, the more the Democrats will be blamed, so he will be rewarded if he can trigger a true great depression with 30% unemployment. Similarly, he will oppose anything that gives more votes to non whites, because as a true white supremacist he does not want to dilute the white vote that supports him. Therefore, Biden can undo Trumps executive orders, but not fix the laws.

This is probably the worst post in this thread. Mitch McConnell disagrees with you. He disagrees with me on some things, too. That doesn’t mean he wants to destroy the economy and oppress brown people to get his way. A true white supremacist? GMAB.

You, and pettie, and Badger and other people in this thread have a very different vision of how this country works than I do, and I will argue until my last breath against that vision, but that doesn’t mean you all want to destroy the country and make people suffer.

Seriously, your hyperbolic idea of what goes on inside Mitch McConnell’s head does little more than discredit your own views. There’s no point listening to anything you say when it boils down to, “DURR REPUBLICANS BAD”. Ok, got it, cool story bro.

[Danny Dravot]

5 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

Those are not really progressive policies, they are moderate because more than 50% of the country agrees on them.  You could argue defund the police and abolish ice are progressive as they are significantly below 50%.

With all due respect, I’m done arguing this one. I have a pretty solid basis for half the country NOT wanting those policies, but you are free to disagree.

Edit: it’s also weird to change the label of an ideology based on whether or not you think people agree with it.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Danny Dravot

[pettie4sox]

1 minute ago, Danny Dravot said:

With all due respect, I’m done arguing this one. I have a pretty solid basis for half the country NOT wanting those policies, but you are free to disagree.

You absolutely can speak for yourself regarding this matter, that's your right, prerogative or whatever you want to call it.

I have yet to see you produce data.  Feel free to produce some.  I have and can produce a lot more if you'd like.  I don't really need to convince you nor do I want to.  These policies are coming whether you like them or not.  Just get yourself mentally prepared.

[Balta1701]

17 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

This is probably the worst post in this thread. Mitch McConnell disagrees with you. He disagrees with me on some things, too. That doesn’t mean he wants to destroy the economy and oppress brown people to get his way. A true white supremacist? GMAB.

You, and pettie, and Badger and other people in this thread have a very different vision of how this country works than I do, and I will argue until my last breath against that vision, but that doesn’t mean you all want to destroy the country and make people suffer.

Seriously, your hyperbolic idea of what goes on inside Mitch McConnell’s head does little more than discredit your own views. There’s no point listening to anything you say when it boils down to, “DURR REPUBLICANS BAD”. Ok, got it, cool story bro.

Mitch McConnell could have passed a bill desperately needed for additional aid any time since May. I know time seems wrong this year, but that is 6 f***ing months of disaster he has personally engineered. Schools have endured billions in costs for tests and protective equipment with no support from the government. Restaurants and bars have been nightmares - city governments need them open for tax dollars and for businesses to survive, but they have been instrumental in the expansion of the virus, because there is no option for them other than to open even though it clearly isn't safe. Just on this year alone, he has personally caused tens of thousands of deaths. I am not exaggerating here, that is what this virus is doing, and he doesn't care. One bit. This country is in a crisis right now, and he has personally engineered that crisis. There is zero exaggeration in this post, whatsoever. If you're uncomfortable with that, please look at what this nightmare has been doing to consolidate his own power. If you don't like the racial aspect of it, explain the delay of the DREAM act, which has bipartisan support but which he has personally blocked for a decade. I will wait. 

[Danny Dravot]

5 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

You absolutely can speak for yourself regarding this matter, that's your right, prerogative or whatever you want to call it.

I have yet to see you produce data.  Feel free to produce some.  I have and can produce a lot more if you'd like.  I don't really need to convince you nor do I want to.  These policies are coming whether you like them or not.  Just get yourself mentally prepared.

Joe Biden, a moderate, won by six million votes (3%). 72 million people voted for Trump. How many of Joe’s 78 million were also moderates or Never Trump conservatives? The incumbent was historically unpopular and there was a world changing pandemic that was horribly handled by said incumbent. And yet, the Senate, whose map also favored Ds, is very likely to stay in R hands (at best, it’s a tie to be broken by a VP who’s in power because of aforementioned shitty incumbent). That’s all the evidence I need. Have fun waiting anxiously for policies that aren’t coming.

[Danny Dravot]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Mitch McConnell could have passed a bill desperately needed for additional aid any time since May. I know time seems wrong this year, but that is 6 f***ing months of disaster he has personally engineered. Schools have endured billions in costs for tests and protective equipment with no support from the government. Restaurants and bars have been nightmares - city governments need them open for tax dollars and for businesses to survive, but they have been instrumental in the expansion of the virus, because there is no option for them other than to open even though it clearly isn't safe. Just on this year alone, he has personally caused tens of thousands of deaths. In weeks, it will be hundreds of thousands. There is zero exaggeration in this post, whatsoever. If you're uncomfortable with that, please look at what this nightmare has been doing to consolidate his own power. If you don't like the racial aspect of it, explain the delay of the DREAM act, which has bipartisan support but which he has personally blocked for a decade. I will wait. 

If you can’t see that accusing him of causing tens of thousands of deaths is hyperbole, then I don’t know what to tell you. Have a nice night.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

If you can’t see that accusing him of causing tens of thousands of deaths is hyperbole, then I don’t know what to tell you. Have a nice night.

If you can't see the deaths being caused by restaurants and bars right now, I don't know what to tell you. They are perhaps the single greatest transmission point based on available data. We have a choice nationwide - either support them while their facilities are extremely limited or closed, or let this virus go wild. Aid to restaurants right now is literally life.

We have doubled cases in the USA in 2.5 weeks and they are one of the key transmission points for this. This is a direct chain, and Mitch McConnell could not care less. Aid to restaurants would have saved tens of thousands of lives. 

No Hyperbole. 

[Danny Dravot]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

If you can't see the deaths being caused by restaurants and bars right now, I don't know what to tell you. They are perhaps the single greatest transmission point based on available data. We have a choice nationwide - either support them while their facilities are extremely limited or closed, or let this virus go wild. Aid to restaurants right now is literally life.

We have doubled cases in the USA in 2.5 weeks and they are one of the key transmission points for this. This is a direct chain, and Mitch McConnell could not care less. Aid to restaurants would have saved tens of thousands of lives. 

No Hyperbole. 

Trump’s total unseriousness regarding this virus is much worse. Even with aid, there would be millions who wouldn’t take this seriously and would want to continue running their businesses as normal. There would also be Americans who would desperately want to use those services. Providing aid wouldn’t dissipate that.

Also, please consider that there non-racial reasons for rejecting a DREAM act. I think we should provide a pathway to citizenship for childhood arrivals, but if we don’t secure our borders, we’re just having the conversation again in twenty years. I want consensus action from both parties to fix the problem rather than just ignoring it, but it’s ridiculous to say Mitch McConnell is doing this solely because he hates brown people and is a true white supremacist.

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

Trump’s total unseriousness regarding this virus is much worse. Even with aid, there would be millions who wouldn’t take this seriously and would want to continue running their businesses as normal. There would also be Americans who would desperately want to use those services. Providing aid wouldn’t dissipate that.

Also, please consider that there non-racial reasons for rejecting a DREAM act. I think we should provide a pathway to citizenship for childhood arrivals, but if we don’t secure our borders, we’re just having the conversation again in twenty years. I want consensus action from both parties to fix the problem rather than just ignoring it, but it’s ridiculous to say Mitch McConnell is doing this solely because he hates brown people and is a true white supremacist.

I never said Trump wasn't worse. That does not excuse him, nor will it excuse him when he continues this next spring. Mitch McConnel is doing something that will absolutely, by his own hands, hurt and kill Americans. He has taken zero penalty for it. He will continue doing this. Historically he knows that hurting the country under a Democratic President has rewarded him and provided him more power and key wins like the upper class tax increase/tax increase on everyone else. He will do this as long as he can gain political power from it. 

Tell me where I'm wrong.  Tell me how a relief bill will pass and frankly I will apologize. 

[Danny Dravot]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I never said Trump wasn't worse. That does not excuse him, nor will it excuse him when he continues this next spring. Mitch McConnel is doing something that will absolutely, by his own hands, hurt and kill Americans. He has taken zero penalty for it. He will continue doing this. Historically he knows that hurting the country under a Democratic President has rewarded him and provided him more power and key wins like the upper class tax increase/tax increase on everyone else. He will do this as long as he can gain political power from it. 

Tell me where I'm wrong.  Tell me how a relief bill will pass and frankly I will apologize. 

I haven’t paid too much attention to a relief bill, honestly. Nancy wanted more, McConnell wanted less, Trump wanted MOARRRR...they need to negotiate. It’s not solely McConnell’s fault.

I don’t want you to apologize. I just want you to see some nuance and not think yourself capable of mind reading. I still remember you saying you lost your job because Republicans wouldn’t fund universities (all because I asked about your whiskey). Doesn’t that make you unhappy? You’re using politics as a crutch! For your own sanity and happiness, stop it.

[Texsox]

While the American public will complain about gridlock we actually want it.  Hence states going for senators from one party and a president from another. 

My hunch is we worry extremists  in either party will get their way. As a liberal there are folks to the left of me I don't agree with,  usually over fiscal matters. Most Republicans I know distance themselves from the social extremists  in their party.  

In reality I believe both parties show some constraint.  Trump didn't get everything he campaigned on even with having the votes necessary. 

[Balta1701]

9 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

I haven’t paid too much attention to a relief bill, honestly. Nancy wanted more, McConnell wanted less, Trump wanted MOARRRR...they need to negotiate. It’s not solely McConnell’s fault.

I don’t want you to apologize. I just want you to see some nuance and not think yourself capable of mind reading. I still remember you saying you lost your job because Republicans wouldn’t fund universities (all because I asked about your whiskey). Doesn’t that make you unhappy? You’re using politics as a crutch! For your own sanity and happiness, stop it.

Here's the beauty of Mitch McConnell. He made you blame Nancy Pelosi for things he did. Observe timeline.

1. Democrats pass bill in the House in May, $3 trillion+ including aid to states, checks to everyone, aid to restaurants, schools, etc. Dead on arrival in Senate.
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-05-16/house-passes-3-trillion-coronavirus-stimulus-package

2. Democrats try to negotiate. McConnell allows 2 votes on $600 billion-scale bills that he know won't pass. Both bills fail in their votes. 
https://www.vox.com/2020/9/10/21429678/senate-stimulus-vote
https://www.vox.com/2020/10/21/21525735/mitch-mcconnell-stimulus-senate-vote

3. Democrats keep trying other offers. Here's dropped to a $2.2 trillion bill. 
https://appropriations.house.gov/news/press-releases/house-democrats-release-updated-version-of-the-heroes-act

4. McConnell generally disapproves of the whole thing. Nothing gets passed whatsoever.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/20/business/us-economy-coronavirus

5. You blame the Democrats for being stubborn and not negotiating, when they did. You can literally look at the list of bills they passed and how they offered compromises in the middle, but that's not good enough unless it's 100% his bill. That's the amazing success of McConnell at destroying our system. He knows if he refuses everything, you blame both sides, because it can't possibly just be his fault right? He's played you like a fiddle.

 

[Jack Parkman]

12 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

M4A, GND, free college and debt forgiveness, housing for all, internet for all, and so on.

You do realize that people who stood up for those things and ran on them overwhelmingly won re-election, right? 

The Democrats who tried to distance themselves from those policies had either lost or had a tough race. 
 

Of those who co-sponsored M4A, all won re-election. 

99 out of 100 HOR members thant co-sponsored the GND won re-election. 

Florida(a notoriously purple state) voted for a $15 minimum wage. 

Policies that help the average American win. 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Danny Dravot]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Here's the beauty of Mitch McConnell. He made you blame Nancy Pelosi for things he did. Observe timeline.

1. Democrats pass bill in the House in May, $3 trillion+ including aid to states, checks to everyone, aid to restaurants, schools, etc. Dead on arrival in Senate.
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-05-16/house-passes-3-trillion-coronavirus-stimulus-package

2. Democrats try to negotiate. McConnell allows 2 votes on $600 billion-scale bills that he know won't pass. Both bills fail in their votes. 
https://www.vox.com/2020/9/10/21429678/senate-stimulus-vote
https://www.vox.com/2020/10/21/21525735/mitch-mcconnell-stimulus-senate-vote

3. Democrats keep trying other offers. Here's dropped to a $2.2 trillion bill. 
https://appropriations.house.gov/news/press-releases/house-democrats-release-updated-version-of-the-heroes-act

4. McConnell generally disapproves of the whole thing. Nothing gets passed whatsoever.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/20/business/us-economy-coronavirus

5. You blame the Democrats for being stubborn and not negotiating, when they did. You can literally look at the list of bills they passed and how they offered compromises in the middle, but that's not good enough unless it's 100% his bill. That's the amazing success of McConnell at destroying our system. He knows if he refuses everything, you blame both sides, because it can't possibly just be his fault right? He's played you like a fiddle.

Looking through there (my work computer won't open several of those articles), but particularly #4, it mentions appeasing a fiscally conservative base or fear of defying the president as reasons for not approving of a larger bill. You can disagree with fiscal conservatism, and the second concern is stupid since the president is a fucking imbecile, but at the same time for, say, Thom Tillis, doing so would probably constitute career suicide.

I don't agree with what McConnell is doing. They need to move heaven and earth to get something passed so Americans can handle the COVID pandemic without starting some sort of financial suicide pandemic. But you are ascribing his motives as economic terrorism and racism, and that's where you jump the shark.

[Danny Dravot]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

You do realize that people who stood up for those things and ran on them overwhelmingly won re-election, right? 

The Democrats who tried to distance themselves from those policies had either lost or had a tough race. 
 

Of those who co-sponsored M4A, all won re-election. 

99 out of 100 HOR members thant co-sponsored the GND won re-election. 

In the House. Where rightwing internet trolls Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Greene also won.

I like what another poster said- AOC will win "sapphire blue" districts ALL DAY, but lose in Abigail Spanberger's district.