2020 Election Thoughts

[Soxbadger]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Where is North Dakota going to go?  They have 1/52 of the population of CA, yet the same amount of senators who confirm Supreme Court judges. That isn't right.

By itself the Senate isnt a problem. Its that ND is voters are over represented in the house, the senate and with the President. When the system was set up, it was not meant to be this way. 

[Danny Dravot]

5 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Im not going to get into why ND would stay, but I will suggest why the current system has become more broken.

The voters in small states voices count more than the voters in larger states. If you break down the House, Senate, EC per population, every one of them skews towards the smaller states. This can be fixed and returned to the original intention by 1) increasing the amount of representatives in the house and 2) increasing the amount of electoral votes. 

The baseline population should be the smallest state and the guarantee. Wyoming has (ill round up) 600,000 people. They have 1 house Rep. California has 39,000,000 (rounding down). Based on this equation CA should have 78 reps. CA currently has 53. That means the state of California is significantly underrepresented in the House. 

The EC is the same. Wyoming has 3 votes at 600,000, so 1 ec for 200k people. California should have 195 ec votes. It only has 55. That means Wyoming's voters are 3x more powerful than a CA voter. 

I agree with that. So fix the House and EC. The system works, it just needs updates.

I'm not a fan of the last two weeks. But I can't abandon my overall views just because the people who currently represent them "best" (I have ideological differences with Trump, not just character/moral ones) are all pieces of shit. It's a tough position to be in.

[Danny Dravot]

11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Where is North Dakota going to go?  They have 1/52 of the population of CA, yet the same amount of senators who confirm Supreme Court judges. That isn't right.

Like Badger said, fix the House and EC then. Each state gets equal voice in the Senate and SCOTUS judges are part of that. It's not a flaw.

[greg775]

12 minutes ago, Quin said:

Trolling?

Nope. I can kill the line if you want but it's true. Both have had great youtube interviews of late and I can link to them. Why assume trolling when these 2 guys are favorites of a lot of people. Not everybody has to always agree on stuff. Geez.

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by greg775

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

Like Badger said, fix the House and EC then. Each state gets equal voice in the Senate and SCOTUS judges are part of that. It's not a flaw.

The Senate is broken. Mitch McConnell has way too much power.

[Quin]

2 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Nope. I can kill the line if you want but it's true. Both have had great youtube interviews of late and I can link to them.

 

Greg, I've watched tens of hours of both of them.

The way they speak is "trolling." Which is why you like them.

[StrangeSox]

20 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

Like Badger said, fix the House and EC then. Each state gets equal voice in the Senate and SCOTUS judges are part of that. It's not a flaw.

There's probably a reason why no other federal system runs this way and why no states run this way. State-based political factions died within a decade of the founding of the country.

[Jack Parkman]

3 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

Seems kinda odd that there's this open coup, open sedition playing out to subvert American democracy, and the Democrats in the House can't seem to be bothered to start holding emergency hearings or anything.

 

2 hours ago, NWINFan said:

Exactly. They sat by in 2000 and let the election be taken from them. It seems like everybody is just sitting by and doing nothing as Trump runs rampant. He had no business contacting the Michigan people, and he has no business inserting himself in the process whatsoever. Some action needs to be taken. Perhaps the Dems should start suing some people. Merely complaining is useless. 

That's because both parties are servants to the corporate interests and wealthy donors that finance their campaigns. 

What's good for the people doesn't matter, the only thing that both parties care about is how to keep getting donations. 

The GOP tells you exactly who they are. 

The Dems talk a good game, while walking the line of what they can actually give to the people without pissing off their donors. 

The reason why the GOP wins elections is that the public will vote for an honest asshole over a compassionate liar the majority of the time. The GOP pushes the envelope of how much of an asshole they can be before voters turn on them. 

But really, without campaign finance reform, we all have to realize that we are not either party's constituents. Those are the wealthy donors. Nothing substantial will change and our rights will continue to be eroded in the name of making a buck. 

If you don't reign in the excesses of capitalism, it will cannibalize democracy. 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

 

That's because both parties are servants to the corporate interests and wealthy donors that finance their campaigns. 

What's good for the people doesn't matter, the only thing that both parties care about is how to keep getting donations. 

The GOP tells you exactly who they are. 

The Dems talk a good game, while walking the line of what they can actually give to the people without pissing off their donors. 

The reason why the GOP wins elections is that the public will vote for an honest asshole over a compassionate liar the majority of the time. The GOP pushes the envelope of how much of an asshole they can be before voters turn on them. 

 

Considering Donald Trump is the current President and Lindsay Graham just got re-elected, I find this about as wrong as can be.

[Danny Dravot]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

 

That's because both parties are servants to the corporate interests and wealthy donors that finance their campaigns. 

What's good for the people doesn't matter, the only thing that both parties care about is how to keep getting donations. 

The GOP tells you exactly who they are. 

The Dems talk a good game, while walking the line of what they can actually give to the people without pissing off their donors. 

The reason why the GOP wins elections is that the public will vote for an honest asshole over a compassionate liar the majority of the time. The GOP pushes the envelope of how much of an asshole they can be before voters turn on them. 

 

Whoo boy.

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Considering Donald Trump is the current President and Lindsay Graham just got re-elected, I find this about as wrong as can be.

They both may be liars, but you know exactly who they are and who they serve despite what comes out of their mouth. 

What I mean is that they're transparent about who they are and what they stand for. They don't hide it. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Danny Dravot]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

They both may be liars, but you know exactly who they are and who they serve despite what comes out of their mouth. 

What I mean is that they're transparent about who they are. 

Not sure I want to get into this, but what exactly would you prefer, Jack?

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

Not sure I want to get into this, but what exactly would you prefer, Jack?

A system in which elected officials are held accountable to the voters in their district/state rather than whomever can give them the most money for their campaign? 

Shit would get solved really quickly and bipartisanship would return. 

American Politics has turned into a culture war rather than actually solving the problems facing the country. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

They both may be liars, but you know exactly who they are and who they serve despite what comes out of their mouth. 

What I mean is that they're transparent about who they are. 

I know and most know who Donald Trump is, but not his base. Lindsay Graham is a total liar. People thought he was a man of his word until recently. He and Biden used to be pals. In fact, there is a video of Lindsay describing Biden and he actually cries telling people what a great person he is. Now he has no problem going after his son, and his whole Supreme Court deal with the "roll the tape" is just a hypocritical asshole. 

Rudy Giuliani a republican. Used to be America's mayor. Know when he isn't laying on a bed tucking his shirt in, he is trying to destroy democtracy. Who knew what he was ? If they did, he never would have gotten this far.

[Danny Dravot]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

A system in which elected officials are held accountable to the voters in their district/state rather than whomever can give them the most money for their campaign? 

Shit would get solved really quickly and bipartisanship would return. 

Care to enlighten me on campaign finance? I don't pay much attention to it. Aren't individual contributions capped at like $2,700 per person? I have no idea what timeframe that's spread over or how to get around it, I am genuinely ignorant of this topic.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

I know and most know who Donald Trump is, but not his base. Lindsay Graham is a total liar. People thought he was a man of his word until recently. He and Biden used to be pals. In fact, there is a video of Lindsay describing Biden and he actually cries telling people what a great person he is. Now he has no problem going after his son, and his whole Supreme Court deal with the "roll the tape" is just a hypocritical asshole. 

Rudy Giuliani a republican. Used to be America's mayor. Know when he isn't laying on a bed tucking his shirt in, he is trying to destroy democtracy. Who knew what he was ? If they did, he never would have gotten this far.

There are people that don't give a fuck about democracy as long as they win their culture war. 

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

There are people that don't give a fuck about democracy as long as they win their culture war. 

You think everyone that votes for them knows that? They use fear. Fear the black man, fear Joe Biden the churches will close, the suburbs will be gone, the stock market will crash and a depression will hit. People will be violently protesting in the streets, kind of like how they are now, with the "law and order" guy. But it won't happen if he's POTUS. It's a freaking cult. These people are brainwashed, and chances are you are never going to be able to reason with them. This militia in MI, now was supposedly planning to take over their capital  for a week and execute politicians. It's insanity.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Dick Allen

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

Care to enlighten me on campaign finance? I don't pay much attention to it. Aren't individual contributions capped at like $2,700 per person? I have no idea what timeframe that's spread over or how to get around it, I am genuinely ignorant of this topic.

There are no contribution limits anymore. Those were stripped by the Buckley vs. Valeo decision by SCOTUS in the mid 70s. In 2010 the SCOTUS stripped it even more with the Citizens United decision, saying that a donor can be anonymous and that campaign limits violated the 1st amendment, as money is speech. 

So therefore, you can have as much free speech as your money can buy. 

[Danny Dravot]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

There are people that don't give a fuck about democracy as long as they win their culture war. 

And would you give a fuck about democracy if it led to things that you didn't want? If the Republican Party comes back in the form that I want, where we fix campaign finance and all the votes are counted and the GOP advocates limited government with a very small welfare state and a relatively interventionist foreign policy, are you going to call it fair and go along with it or are you going to complain that the system is still broken?

[Soxbadger]

5 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

Care to enlighten me on campaign finance? I don't pay much attention to it. Aren't individual contributions capped at like $2,700 per person? I have no idea what timeframe that's spread over or how to get around it, I am genuinely ignorant of this topic.

You can give unlimited money to a company as long as that company does not directly coordinate with the campaign. It is based off of the ruling of Citizens United.

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You think everyone that votes for them knows that?

Not necessarily. I think there is a large portion of any country that is susceptible to propaganda though. 

It takes a keen eye to separate the facts from the bullshit. 

For example: 

Do I think that Putin has something on Trump? Yeah. 

Do I think the KGB interfered in US elections? Yeah. 

Do I think they're responsible for Trump being elected in 2016? No. We did that to ourselves. 

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

And would you give a fuck about democracy if it led to things that you didn't want? If the Republican Party comes back in the form that I want, where we fix campaign finance and all the votes are counted and the GOP advocates limited government with a very small welfare state and a relatively interventionist foreign policy, are you going to call it fair and go along with it or are you going to complain that the system is still broken?

If I felt that there were a lot of people that actually wanted those things....yeah. 

I believe in the vision of Franklin D. Roosevelt. 

A necessitous man is not a free man. 

I have a very different definition of freedom than the modern GOP. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[ptatc]

51 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

 

After the last 2 weeks the Republican party doesnt deserve to survive. I have no problem if someone wants to start a new party that reflected the ideas of Republicans (small govt, etc) but that isnt even what they are any more. The only thing that the Republican party stands for is keeping the Republican party in power. 

 

Im not going to get into why ND would stay, but I will suggest why the current system has become more broken.

The voters in small states voices count more than the voters in larger states. If you break down the House, Senate, EC per population, every one of them skews towards the smaller states. This can be fixed and returned to the original intention by 1) increasing the amount of representatives in the house and 2) increasing the amount of electoral votes. 

The baseline population should be the smallest state and the guarantee. Wyoming has (ill round up) 600,000 people. They have 1 house Rep. California has 39,000,000 (rounding down). Based on this equation CA should have 78 reps. CA currently has 53. That means the state of California is significantly underrepresented in the House. 

The EC is the same. Wyoming has 3 votes at 600,000, so 1 ec for 200k people. California should have 195 ec votes. It only has 55. That means Wyoming's voters are 3x more powerful than a CA voter. 

Your other option is to have the population dense coasts rule the country. There will never be a presidential candidate land a plane between NY and CA. The "fly over states" will truly become that politically. There will be no representation for these states.

[Danny Dravot]

I suspect a lot of people in this thread are doing what Badger is rightfully criticizing Greg for. Believing democracy is good if it produces the desired outcome and bad if it doesn't. Like thinking that the Senate is broken just because Mitch McConnell is majority leader. Look, even if the people of the USA voted for full communism, I'd continue to believe in the righteousness of the system and cry into my beer while secretly watching jingoistic videos from the Cold War.

[Rowand44]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

Nope. I can kill the line if you want but it's true. Both have had great youtube interviews of late and I can link to them. Why assume trolling when these 2 guys are favorites of a lot of people. Not everybody has to always agree on stuff. Geez.

 

One's a scumbag who hid Sexual abuse.  The other is one of the biggest coward's to ever walk this earth.  Good choices, Greg.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Rowand44