2020 Election Thoughts

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

I suspect a lot of people in this thread are doing what Badger is rightfully criticizing Greg for. Believing democracy is good if it produces the desired outcome and bad if it doesn't. Like thinking that the Senate is broken just because Mitch McConnell is majority leader. Look, even if the people of the USA voted for full communism, I'd continue to believe in the righteousness of the system and cry into my beer while secretly watching jingoistic videos from the Cold War.

The way that you see what people actually want is on the state ballot initiatives. 

Things that seem to pass overwhelmingly

Decriminalization of drugs/legalization of marijuana

Raising the minimum wage

Making healthcare more affordable

so far.....

 

What would also help is if economists would quit lying to the American people. 

More disposable income in the hands of more people is better for the economy than the wealthy continuing to hoard. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[StrangeSox]

8 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

You can give unlimited money to a company as long as that company does not directly coordinate with the campaign. It is based off of the ruling of Citizens United.

There's always a whole lot of "wink wink, nudge nudge, we're not coordinating we swear!" between PACS and campaigns, too

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, StrangeSox said:

There's always a whole lot of "wink wink, nudge nudge, we're not coordinating we swear!" between PACS and campaigns, too

Yup.....Plausible deniability. Lots of in person meetings that leave no record in discreet locations. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[NWINFan]

5 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

And would you give a fuck about democracy if it led to things that you didn't want? If the Republican Party comes back in the form that I want, where we fix campaign finance and all the votes are counted and the GOP advocates limited government with a very small welfare state and a relatively interventionist foreign policy, are you going to call it fair and go along with it or are you going to complain that the system is still broken?

I can see I would be on the opposite side of the fence of you, but if we can agree on a honest campaign system, I believe we would probably find something else we can agree on. I really don't expect much from the politicians, but I do expect that votes will not be stolen and we live by the results of an election. What is going on now is beyond belief. In addition to the election nonsense, the Covid crisis is being ignored. There one other thing I expect from my government. When the population is threatened by something, the government should act. In times like these, I don't care about a party agenda or politician's ambition. Just be human and do a coupe things right.

[Soxbadger]

5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Your other option is to have the population dense coasts rule the country. There will never be a presidential candidate land a plane between NY and CA. The "fly over states" will truly become that politically. There will be no representation for these states.

Population density changes. You could replace CA with Texas. Texas voters are also underrepresented. Why shouldnt every voter have an equal voice in 2/3 parts of the govt? 

Small state voters are already overrepresented in the Senate. Shouldnt at least 1 part of govt give equal representation to every voter?

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

I can see I would be on the opposite side of the fence of you, but if we can agree on a honest campaign system, I believe we would probably find something else we can agree on. I really don't expect much from the politicians, but I do expect that votes will not be stolen and we live by the results of an election. What is going on now is beyond belief. In addition to the election nonsense, the Covid crisis is being ignored. There one other thing I expect from my government. When the population is threatened by something, the government should act. In times like these, I don't care about a party agenda or politician's ambition. Just be human and do a coupe things right.

There are people on one side of the aisle that continue not only to ignore human suffering, but actually enhance it. Bunch of sick sadists, they are. 

They couldn't give a flying fuck if people are dying. Did my donors make money last week? How much are they going to contribute? 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Danny Dravot]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

If I felt that there were a lot of people that actually wanted those things....yeah. 

I believe in the vision of Franklin D. Roosevelt. 

A necessitous man is not a free man. 

I have a very different definition of freedom than the modern GOP. 

Define "necessitous". And don't say "needy". I get that. Tell me what this man lacks that makes him necessitous and what you propose we do.

I've said it plenty- I'm down for a public option for people who can't afford private health insurance. Drug prices should be kept low by the federal government, if necessary. I'm down for limited time welfare/unemployment/food stamp payments, but ultimately you've got to move towards independence. The feds should, to some extent, help local governments establish shelters for the homeless to keep crime down and prevent people from sleeping on the streets.

I don't want people to die unnecessarily. I don't want them to suffer. But obtaining even the slightest amount of luxury in life is your responsibility, nobody else's. If you depend on the "welfare state", you should be subsisting and nothing more.

[Danny Dravot]

4 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

I can see I would be on the opposite side of the fence of you, but if we can agree on a honest campaign system, I believe we would probably find something else we can agree on. I really don't expect much from the politicians, but I do expect that votes will not be stolen and we live by the results of an election. What is going on now is beyond belief. In addition to the election nonsense, the Covid crisis is being ignored. There one other thing I expect from my government. When the population is threatened by something, the government should act. In times like these, I don't care about a party agenda or politician's ambition. Just be human and do a coupe things right.

I can respect this. I don't expect to agree with everybody on everything (and I won't, ever- find another person who wants the government to establish a public option AND sponsor regime change in Turkmenistan, haha). But we need to establish a fair system that acknowledges all voices and respect the outcome that it produces. I didn't like the Democrat reaction in 2016 and the GOP reaction now is 100 times worse.

[Danny Dravot]

11 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The way that you see what people actually want is on the state ballot initiatives. 

Things that seem to pass overwhelmingly

Decriminalization of drugs/legalization of marijuana

Raising the minimum wage

Making healthcare more affordable

so far.....

 

What would also help is if economists would quit lying to the American people. 

More disposable income in the hands of more people is better for the economy than the wealthy continuing to hoard. 

I think people who smoke marijuana should be laughed at by their friends and family. Not imprisoned by the federal government.

I'm fine with raising the minimum wage. My personal understanding of economics is that it would favor big businesses over small ones and drive up unemployment, but if a fast food worker wants to argue himself out of a job, why should I get in the way?

[Jack Parkman]

23 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

Define "necessitous". And don't say "needy". I get that. Tell me what this man lacks that makes him necessitous and what you propose we do.

I've said it plenty- I'm down for a public option for people who can't afford private health insurance. Drug prices should be kept low by the federal government, if necessary. I'm down for limited time welfare/unemployment/food stamp payments, but ultimately you've got to move towards independence. The feds should, to some extent, help local governments establish shelters for the homeless to keep crime down and prevent people from sleeping on the streets.

I don't want people to die unnecessarily. I don't want them to suffer. But obtaining even the slightest amount of luxury in life is your responsibility, nobody else's. If you depend on the "welfare state", you should be subsisting and nothing more.

Think of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.

When it comes to things that should be provided by the government: 

Food, if you can't afford it

Shelter, if you can't afford it. 

A Public Option for healthcare if you want to use it.....regardless of income. 

Also, you can't function in the modern world without internet access, so I think that should be included in your utilities. Everyone should have access. Same with cell phones, they can be attached to your internet access. 

That's it.... 

HOWEVER: 

There are things that legislation could and should do to make the path to independence/the middle class as smooth as possible such as: 

1. Reigning in college tuition and capping student loan interest rates at 1%

2. Strengthening workplace protections and labor laws.....making employers have to recognize a union if one wants to form. There should be no barriers to creating a union if the workers so choose. 

3. Reigning in capitalism's excesses, by taking down corporations such as Amazon, Facebook, Google, and the big banks, also groups like Comcast, and cell phone providers, etc....competition leads to innovation. The Sherman Antitrust act is there for a reason.....use it. 

4. Strong minimum wage laws and limits on how much a person can work during the week. 

5. End the Independent contractor bullshit. That's just a way for an employer to skirt around paying benefits packages. 

6. Instead of just handing out tax breaks to corporations like candy, instead make them earn them. If they reinvest in their employees, reinvest in their company..hire more people....things that actually help the economy.....If they do those things, then they get a tax break. 

7. Make it easier for small businesses to compete on a macro level and grow......BREAK UP MONOPOLIES AND CARTELS!!!

 

A huge thing is how businesses react to downturns in the economy in this culture.......instead of laying people off, everyone takes a pay cut...that's a more humane option. 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

12 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

I think people who smoke marijuana should be laughed at by their friends and family. Not imprisoned by the federal government.

I'm fine with raising the minimum wage. My personal understanding of economics is that it would favor big businesses over small ones and drive up unemployment, but if a fast food worker wants to argue himself out of a job, why should I get in the way?

That's a myth actually. 

The companies that pay their workers minimum wage are so profitable that even doubling it would barely put a dent into their profits. 

The only thing that raising the minimum wage does is puts more money in people's pockets. Go look at the study that was done in King County, WA after the minimum wage was raised to $15. 

 

The welfare system actually doesn't subsidize people......it subsidizes corporate profits. 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Iwritecode]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Also, you can't function in the modern world without internet access, so I think that should be included in your utilities. Everyone should have access. Same with cell phones, they can be attached to your internet access. 

I have at least half a dozen co-workers that prove this is false.

When work from home started in back in March/April we had to issue them cell phones so they could use them as hot spots because they didn't have internet at home.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

That's a myth actually. 

The companies that pay their workers minimum wage are so profitable that even doubling it would barely put a dent into their profits. 

The only thing that raising the minimum wage does is puts more money in people's pockets. Go look at the study that was done in King County, WA after the minimum wage was raised to $15. 

 

The welfare system actually doesn't subsidize people......it subsidizes corporate profits. 

 

The 2 companies that employ the most people on Medicaid and food stamps, with the US taxpayer footing the bill for their health care and meals, are McDonalds and Walmart.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-top-employers-of-medicaid-and-food-stamp-beneficiaries.html

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Iwritecode said:

I have at least half a dozen co-workers that prove this is false.

When work from home started in back in March/April we had to issue them cell phones so they could use them as hot spots because they didn't have internet at home.

That illustrates why it would be important to treat internet access like a utility, because when it isn't treated that way, people get left behind.

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

The 2 companies that employ the most people on Medicaid and food stamps, with the US taxpayer footing the bill for their health care and meals, are McDonalds and Walmart.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-top-employers-of-medicaid-and-food-stamp-beneficiaries.html

Yup........that's what I mean by the welfare system subsidizing corporate profits. 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Iwritecode said:

I have at least half a dozen co-workers that prove this is false.

When work from home started in back in March/April we had to issue them cell phones so they could use them as hot spots because they didn't have internet at home.

Thank you for proving my point for me.  @Balta1701 is right. If you don't treat internet as a utility, people get left behind. 

Also, as fast as cell phone hotspots are, they are nowhere near as fast as gigabit or 10 gigabit internet that you get from an ISP. 

[Iwritecode]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

That illustrates why it would be important to treat internet access like a utility, because when it isn't treated that way, people get left behind.

They were/are apparently perfectly happy without it. The only reason my in-laws have it is because my brother-in-law still lives with them and pays for it. 

[StrangeSox]

 

[Danny Dravot]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Think of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.

When it comes to things that should be provided by the government: 

Food, if you can't afford it

Shelter, if you can't afford it. 

A Public Option for healthcare if you want to use it.....regardless of income. 

Also, you can't function in the modern world without internet access, so I think that should be included in your utilities. Everyone should have access. Same with cell phones, they can be attached to your internet access. 

That's it.... 

HOWEVER: 

There are things that legislation could and should do to make the path to independence/the middle class as smooth as possible such as: 

1. Reigning in college tuition and capping student loan interest rates at 1%

2. Strengthening workplace protections and labor laws.....making employers have to recognize a union if one wants to form. There should be no barriers to creating a union if the workers so choose. 

3. Reigning in capitalism's excesses, by taking down corporations such as Amazon, Facebook, Google, and the big banks, also groups like Comcast, and cell phone providers, etc....competition leads to innovation. The Sherman Antitrust act is there for a reason.....use it. 

4. Strong minimum wage laws and limits on how much a person can work during the week. 

5. End the Independent contractor bullshit. That's just a way for an employer to skirt around paying benefits packages. 

6. Instead of just handing out tax breaks to corporations like candy, instead make them earn them. If they reinvest in their employees, reinvest in their company..hire more people....things that actually help the economy.....If they do those things, then they get a tax break. 

7. Make it easier for small businesses to compete on a macro level and grow......BREAK UP MONOPOLIES AND CARTELS!!!

 

Food and shelter, sure. You get to shop at Aldi's and eat ramen; don't even think about eating steak and enjoying a bottle of wine. You get a cot in a dormitory style room with bare plaster walls. You will subsist.

Public option regardless of income? No way. It's not your responsibility to pay my premium when I can afford it. That's unjust.

Internet and cell phone? Absolutely not. I want to pay for unlimited data on the newest, latest smart phone and 100GB wifi for my house. And that's fine, because I can afford it. If you can't, then get yourself a flip phone. These things might be important but they're still luxuries. Not a societal responsibility.

A lot of stuff in your second section goes against individual choice. I like Amazon. If you don't like Amazon, shop somewhere else. Easy. The evil of a monopoly is that it can rig prices and, while enormous, Amazon isn't doing that. Everything you can do on Amazon, you can also do somewhere else.

I work two jobs and own a small business. I sleep in a hotel bed four nights out of the week. If a guy making minimum wage wants to pick up the shifts of lazier coworkers and make twice as much as they do, who are you to stop them? Who are you to stop me?

I used to Uber drive. Nobody forced me to do it. If you want to volunteer as an independent contractor for a company like that, then you know what you're getting into. It was easy to make forty extra bucks (back in a time where, for me, forty bucks was a lot) on a Saturday night by just driving out of my garage and turning on an app. If you want Uber to provide healthcare, that possibility is going to disappear and people like 2016 Me will have fewer options. All over something that they knew they weren't getting and didn't particularly want.

[Danny Dravot]

17 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

That's a myth actually. 

The companies that pay their workers minimum wage are so profitable that even doubling it would barely put a dent into their profits. 

The only thing that raising the minimum wage does is puts more money in people's pockets. Go look at the study that was done in King County, WA after the minimum wage was raised to $15. 

 

So the clerk at the family owned convenience store in Paris, VA, should get the same pay as a McDs worker in NYC? Federal minimum wage ignores COL differences. Additionally, you are correct- McDs would handle it just fine (although they might cut down on labor per shift, thus cutting people's hours if not their jobs). The convenience store in VA would not. 

[Jack Parkman]

4 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

So the clerk at the family owned convenience store in Paris, VA, should get the same pay as a McDs worker in NYC? Federal minimum wage ignores COL differences. Additionally, you are correct- McDs would handle it just fine (although they might cut down on labor per shift, thus cutting people's hours if not their jobs). The convenience store in VA would not. 

No, the minimum wage should be tied to cost of living among other things. 

However, if the convenience store owner can't afford to pay his employee a living wage.....then maybe he shouldn't be in business and his business model is bad? 

It's up to the owner to make the numbers work. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

15 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

Food and shelter, sure. You get to shop at Aldi's and eat ramen; don't even think about eating steak and enjoying a bottle of wine. You get a cot in a dormitory style room with bare plaster walls. You will subsist.

Public option regardless of income? No way. It's not your responsibility to pay my premium when I can afford it. That's unjust.

Internet and cell phone? Absolutely not. I want to pay for unlimited data on the newest, latest smart phone and 100GB wifi for my house. And that's fine, because I can afford it. If you can't, then get yourself a flip phone. These things might be important but they're still luxuries. Not a societal responsibility.

A lot of stuff in your second section goes against individual choice. I like Amazon. If you don't like Amazon, shop somewhere else. Easy. The evil of a monopoly is that it can rig prices and, while enormous, Amazon isn't doing that. Everything you can do on Amazon, you can also do somewhere else.

I work two jobs and own a small business. I sleep in a hotel bed four nights out of the week. If a guy making minimum wage wants to pick up the shifts of lazier coworkers and make twice as much as they do, who are you to stop them? Who are you to stop me?

I used to Uber drive. Nobody forced me to do it. If you want to volunteer as an independent contractor for a company like that, then you know what you're getting into. It was easy to make forty extra bucks (back in a time where, for me, forty bucks was a lot) on a Saturday night by just driving out of my garage and turning on an app. If you want Uber to provide healthcare, that possibility is going to disappear and people like 2016 Me will have fewer options. All over something that they knew they weren't getting and didn't particularly want.

You don't seem to understand how the public option regardless of income works. 

You pay into the system based on income. It comes out of your taxes. 

For example, if you make between $75-$100k as a household in the current M4A bill, then you pay an extra 4k in taxes. 

For example, in the private insurance market place, average deductibles are in the $8-12k range, along with your monthly premiums, let's say around $600-800/month. If you end up in the hospital, you're paying 16-20k out of pocket before you get any coverage. 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Danny Dravot]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

No, the minimum wage should be tied to cost of living among other things. 

However, if the convenience store owner can't afford to pay his employee a living wage.....then maybe he shouldn't be in business and his business model is bad? 

Fair, on the first point.

LOL at the second point. You want the government to pay for everything, including wifi and cell phones, but you're going to scoff at the business acumen of a guy who shudders at having to pay his employees an additional seven dollars per hour? If a restaurant has ten people on shift and they all make minimum wage, $15 min wage is going to cost him $930 in the course of one 12 hour day. It's a bit of a simplistic example, but small businesses often live on the margins. To act like this is something that could only be upsetting if the business owner totally sucks at what he does is both wrong and condescending.

[Jack Parkman]

4 minutes ago, Danny Dravot said:

Fair, on the first point.

LOL at the second point. You want the government to pay for everything, including wifi and cell phones, but you're going to scoff at the business acumen of a guy who shudders at having to pay his employees an additional seven dollars per hour? If a restaurant has ten people on shift and they all make minimum wage, $15 min wage is going to cost him $930 in the course of one 12 hour day. It's a bit of a simplistic example, but small businesses often live on the margins. To act like this is something that could only be upsetting if the business owner totally sucks at what he does is both wrong and condescending.

I don't believe in exploitative business models and they should be illegal and a violation of labor law. Sorry. 

It's not that he sucks at what he does, it's that his business model is faulty. 

Get a business model where the numbers actually work and are not exploitative. 

I think a lot of business models that are commonly accepted are unacceptable and unsustainable. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Danny Dravot]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

You don't seem to understand how the public option regardless of income works. 

You pay into the system based on income. It comes out of your taxes. 

For example, if you make between $75-$100k as a household in the current M4A bill, then you pay an extra 4k in taxes. 

For example, in the private insurance market place, average deductibles are in the $8-12k range, along with your monthly premiums. 

 

Perhaps I don't. The end point is that there should be some way for people who truly can't afford it to enjoy subsidized healthcare insurance, to the point of being free (for the worst cases). Something along the line of capped premiums based on income, with a relatively low cap where you qualify for no subsidies at all.

There's a lot more in my post beyond that though which I'd like to hear your thoughts on.