2020 Election Thoughts

[southsider2k5]

 

[Stinky Stanky]

3 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

Oh c'mon. I've read your posts elsewhere in this thread and you're far more reasonable than this. Trump is a dopey bombastic bigot and a moron who doesn't believe in any part of America, much less its institutions, but he's not a Nazi.

This is German fascism (NSFL).

This is Trumpism.

Honestly, this doesn't bug me because I feel the need to defend Trump. His character can be smeared any which way and I won't really care. This bugs me because it's an affront to actual victims of Nazism.

 

OK, I was exaggerating, but he is crossing a line post-election loss.  

[southsider2k5]

 

[Chisoxfn]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

To be completely honest - that is probably the most sincere answer I've heard from him yet and I actually get it.  He's been having calls from people saying he should be impeached from day 1.  So I can see why he is taking this crazy stance from that perspective (meaning I see his logic - not saying i condone it or support it - the dude is horrible and should move on). 

4 years ago the other side, recognized that Trump won...but it did feel like from day 1 they were out to dump him - which trust me, I get, he's not my guy and I don't support him, but he was elected president (the crusade's shouldn't start the 1st day the president is in office, no matter how small or big the margin is - let the process play out and remember you are representing the people (not just your party - the people).  Now 4 years later and the tides turn and the left's views inverse just as the right's views inverse.  

Than you have a centrist like myself who literally just has his mind blown every 4 years at the sheer hypocrisy that exists (and shame on me for having it always happen).  I do think Biden has the sincerity about him where maybe he can actually flip the pendulum.  

[greg775]

4 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

I'd refute this in depth, but I'm actually going to walk down to the hotel restaurant, take my mask off while I eat dinner, sit at least six feet away from any other person at the bar, and enjoy a nice chicken sandwich.

Seriously, you pick up on a lot of little things and cram them all together to form some sort of massive government conspiracy. Live your life, this isn't fascism from either side, everything's going to be alright.

What are u doing in a hotel? Have you flown this week? How bout a little summary of airports, actual flights, mask wearing at airports and on the plane and atmosphere in the cities u travel to during this period of advanced COVID.

Edited November 20, 2020 by greg775

[The Beast]

6 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

 

That would be huge if he were gone, although I don’t think it would immediately solve the state’s pension deficits and unpaid liabilities. I hope he doesn’t install a pawn of his to be the next speaker, Illinoisans deserve better.

6 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

Food and shelter, sure. You get to shop at Aldi's and eat ramen; don't even think about eating steak and enjoying a bottle of wine. You get a cot in a dormitory style room with bare plaster walls. You will subsist.

Public option regardless of income? No way. It's not your responsibility to pay my premium when I can afford it. That's unjust.

Internet and cell phone? Absolutely not. I want to pay for unlimited data on the newest, latest smart phone and 100GB wifi for my house. And that's fine, because I can afford it. If you can't, then get yourself a flip phone. These things might be important but they're still luxuries. Not a societal responsibility.

A lot of stuff in your second section goes against individual choice. I like Amazon. If you don't like Amazon, shop somewhere else. Easy. The evil of a monopoly is that it can rig prices and, while enormous, Amazon isn't doing that. Everything you can do on Amazon, you can also do somewhere else.

I work two jobs and own a small business. I sleep in a hotel bed four nights out of the week. If a guy making minimum wage wants to pick up the shifts of lazier coworkers and make twice as much as they do, who are you to stop them? Who are you to stop me?

I used to Uber drive. Nobody forced me to do it. If you want to volunteer as an independent contractor for a company like that, then you know what you're getting into. It was easy to make forty extra bucks (back in a time where, for me, forty bucks was a lot) on a Saturday night by just driving out of my garage and turning on an app. If you want Uber to provide healthcare, that possibility is going to disappear and people like 2016 Me will have fewer options. All over something that they knew they weren't getting and didn't particularly want.

My issue with Amazon is how it can hurt retailers, the taxes it pays and how it is trying to be a one stop shop for everything. It is hard to compete if you gain market share of literally everything. Look at Walgreens’ shares that fell the other day when a new pharmacy business was mentioned/launched?.

3 hours ago, Soxbadger said:

Speak for yourself greg. I dont despise Republicans.

I despise the hypocrite Trump cult members who are actively trying to tear this nation apart. That isnt a Republican platform. 

Same here. Give me the Romneys, Murkowskis, McCains of the world. They are few and far between, but their bipartisan nature is what makes them stronger than people like Cruz, Jordan and Gaetz.

14 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

To be completely honest - that is probably the most sincere answer I've heard from him yet and I actually get it.  He's been having calls from people saying he should be impeached from day 1.  So I can see why he is taking this crazy stance from that perspective (meaning I see his logic - not saying i condone it or support it - the dude is horrible and should move on). 

4 years ago the other side, recognized that Trump won...but it did feel like from day 1 they were out to dump him - which trust me, I get, he's not my guy and I don't support him, but he was elected president (the crusade's shouldn't start the 1st day the president is in office, no matter how small or big the margin is - let the process play out and remember you are representing the people (not just your party - the people).  Now 4 years later and the tides turn and the left's views inverse just as the right's views inverse.  

Than you have a centrist like myself who literally just has his mind blown every 4 years at the sheer hypocrisy that exists (and shame on me for having it always happen).  I do think Biden has the sincerity about him where maybe he can actually flip the pendulum.  

“Black Lives Matter is a statement of saying that we have a justice system and a law enforcement system which from time to time does not exercise equal and fair justice. We want to make it very clear that law enforcement and other parts of the justice system should be color blind and should not be discriminatory to people of color.

I have an African American grandson. I understand that there is a talk where it is explained that they could be discriminated against because of the color of their skin. I don’t know how my grandson can understand how he could be treated differently than his white cousins and siblings because of the pigment of his skin. I find that very troubling.

Some people say, well what about the Black Lives Matter organization, do you subscribe to their manifesto? I don’t haven’t even seen their manifesto or worry about that organization. The movement that was very simple that brought out people across the world is, we want to see more racial justice, we want to see less racial discrimination, we want to stand with our Black friends and say, yes, your lives do matter.” - Mitt Romney on “The Axe Files.”

I share this because this is the kind of thought independent of party that I want to see. If Biden can appeal to congress and unite and bring compromise, I think the pendulum can swing back and some progress can be made. 

[Danny Dravot]

41 minutes ago, greg775 said:

What are u doing in a hotel? Have you flown this week? How bout a little summary of airports, actual flights, mask wearing at airports and on the plane and atmosphere in the cities u travel to during this period of advanced COVID.

The organization for whom I’m working on COVID emergency management has its headquarters established in the conference room of a Hilton (I live and work there). Haven’t flown, but we all wear masks in the office. Between headquarters and our groups actually in the field, we have around 2,000 people and I’d say something like 50 are or have been at some point confirmed COVID positives.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Danny Dravot

[Danny Dravot]

20 minutes ago, The Beast said:

Same here. Give me the Romneys, Murkowskis, McCains of the world. They are few and far between, but their bipartisan nature is what makes them stronger than people like Cruz, Jordan and Gaetz.

I know you responded to me elsewhere but this is what I really want to respond to. I think one stop shops are great by the way.

Centrism is great. A few years ago, I would have looked at the centrists like other people in this thread and described them as “losers who stand for nothing”. Stupid sentiment. First off, nobody on either side gets anywhere without us. Second, I stand more for the things I actually care about than I ever have. Do I care about culture war bullshit? Nah. I care about American patriotism. I care about using diplomacy and the American military to intervene around the world, preventing tragedy and promoting liberal democracy. Bismarck didn’t care about left or right- according to realpolitik, he only cared about advancing his country’s interest. That’s my stance. I’ll argue for Medicaid expansion and LGBT rights, but if you want me in your coalition, I’m going to get something in return. My vote is no longer guaranteed to anyone- it is earned by catering to my world view.

Who knows. I just spent two hours getting hammered at the hotel bar with a coworker while we discussed the Malay Emergency and destruction of Elphinstone’s army in 1842. I’m real fun at parties.

[Danny Dravot]

https://mobile.twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1329604381344489472

This is good news.

Some of you will bash Tucker for being Tucker, and for even giving credence to this stuff in the first place, but he’s someone that Trumpists listen to devoutly. If there’s anything that’ll help millions of people come to their senses and accept the course of the nation, it’s this.

AG has some other good tweets about Republicans coming out against the Trump, Powell, Giuliani camp. Sasse and Ernst both with recent condemnations, GOP state legislators in several swing states confirming that they have no intention of changing the outcome via electors.

[Dick Allen]

I was watching a guy from the Lincoln Project who used to be a canvasser in Michigan who is very worried about what Trump will be able to to with the electors in that state even though he lost by 157,000. One call got someone to try to rescind their certification. He is having republicans from their state legislature at the WH today, and this guy says be very worried. These are low level politicians who Trump will try to entice with higher positions, and he thinks there is a good chance they will fall for it. 

[Dick Allen]

8 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

To be completely honest - that is probably the most sincere answer I've heard from him yet and I actually get it.  He's been having calls from people saying he should be impeached from day 1.  So I can see why he is taking this crazy stance from that perspective (meaning I see his logic - not saying i condone it or support it - the dude is horrible and should move on). 

4 years ago the other side, recognized that Trump won...but it did feel like from day 1 they were out to dump him - which trust me, I get, he's not my guy and I don't support him, but he was elected president (the crusade's shouldn't start the 1st day the president is in office, no matter how small or big the margin is - let the process play out and remember you are representing the people (not just your party - the people).  Now 4 years later and the tides turn and the left's views inverse just as the right's views inverse.  

Than you have a centrist like myself who literally just has his mind blown every 4 years at the sheer hypocrisy that exists (and shame on me for having it always happen).  I do think Biden has the sincerity about him where maybe he can actually flip the pendulum.  

Yes, but you would scold your 4 year old if they acted like this. This behavior IMO shows the guy was unfit for office on day 1. But I guess Little Marco and Lyin' Ted disagree.

[ron883]

39 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yes, but you would scold your 4 year old if they acted like this. This behavior IMO shows the guy was unfit for office on day 1. But I guess Little Marco and Lyin' Ted disagree.

Low Energy Jeb!

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

Low Energy Jeb!

At least low energy Jeb stuck to his guns and his opinion of Trump. He and the woman Trump called too ugly to be President. Little Marco, who Trump called a failure as a senator, said Florida hated him, he missed more votes than anyone, and Lyin' Ted, now both kiss his ass.

[The Beast]

10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

At least low energy Jeb stuck to his guns and his opinion of Trump. He and the woman Trump called too ugly to be President. Little Marco, who Trump called a failure as a senator, said Florida hated him, he missed more votes than anyone, and Lyin' Ted, now both kiss his ass.

7 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

I know you responded to me elsewhere but this is what I really want to respond to. I think one stop shops are great by the way.

Centrism is great. A few years ago, I would have looked at the centrists like other people in this thread and described them as “losers who stand for nothing”. Stupid sentiment. First off, nobody on either side gets anywhere without us. Second, I stand more for the things I actually care about than I ever have. Do I care about culture war bullshit? Nah. I care about American patriotism. I care about using diplomacy and the American military to intervene around the world, preventing tragedy and promoting liberal democracy. Bismarck didn’t care about left or right- according to realpolitik, he only cared about advancing his country’s interest. That’s my stance. I’ll argue for Medicaid expansion and LGBT rights, but if you want me in your coalition, I’m going to get something in return. My vote is no longer guaranteed to anyone- it is earned by catering to my world view.

Who knows. I just spent two hours getting hammered at the hotel bar with a coworker while we discussed the Malay Emergency and destruction of Elphinstone’s army in 1842. I’m real fun at parties.

I am of the opinion that there is no progress without centrist votes in Congress unless bills are just shoved down the other party’s throat. Centrists most certainly stand for something, for me I am for a public option for health care and am for pension reform in Illinois, which wouldn’t make me be a democrat in some people’s eyes. 

You also mention getting something in return, well, that is what horse trading under regular order and compromise is for. Each side can walk away and get something and if instead there is just gridlock and no deal to be had, that is when government is at its worst. I hope that doesn’t happen in the next Congress but who knows what will.

[knightni]

14 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

Don't live within a thousand miles of his district, but Fred Upton seems like what I would like the GOP to be.

He's also a huge Cubs fan, apparently, so he isn't perfect.

He's my Representative.

You can have him.

Whirlpool money and has had his job since the late '80s.

 

 

[NWINFan]

10 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

To be completely honest - that is probably the most sincere answer I've heard from him yet and I actually get it.  He's been having calls from people saying he should be impeached from day 1.  So I can see why he is taking this crazy stance from that perspective (meaning I see his logic - not saying i condone it or support it - the dude is horrible and should move on). 

4 years ago the other side, recognized that Trump won...but it did feel like from day 1 they were out to dump him - which trust me, I get, he's not my guy and I don't support him, but he was elected president (the crusade's shouldn't start the 1st day the president is in office, no matter how small or big the margin is - let the process play out and remember you are representing the people (not just your party - the people).  Now 4 years later and the tides turn and the left's views inverse just as the right's views inverse.  

Than you have a centrist like myself who literally just has his mind blown every 4 years at the sheer hypocrisy that exists (and shame on me for having it always happen).  I do think Biden has the sincerity about him where maybe he can actually flip the pendulum.  

This is no time to settle personal scores. Putting the country through this for no good reason is inexcusable. Hillary Clinton accepted her loss. How many times were there chants of "lock her up?" How many times did she have to testify about Benghazi including a 12-hour marathon? I understand you are not praising him for it, but I don't see the logic at all. He's doing too much damage. I guess what I am saying is that this man defies logic.

[StrangeSox]

haha north korea and their crazy cult of personality for their leader haha so weird

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

While they are absolutely attempting a slow coup to destroy our democratic system, at least they're so deeply incompetent that it's amusing to watch it roll out:

 

 

If this had come down to one or two very close states, I think we'd be at a lot higher risk of the coup succeeding. As it is, it requires too many people at too many levels in too many states to put their necks on the line, along with a lot of federal judges. Even the most conservative, Trump-appointee judges don't seem to have any patience for this clownshow. 

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

This is no time to settle personal scores. Putting the country through this for no good reason is inexcusable. Hillary Clinton accepted her loss. How many times were there chants of "lock her up?" How many times did she have to testify about Benghazi including a 12-hour marathon? I understand you are not praising him for it, but I don't see the logic at all. He's doing too much damage. I guess what I am saying is that this man defies logic.

He is quite literally attacking the wheels of democracy here.  We had a valid election with a clear winner, yet he isn't just questioning the results, he is physically going after the individuals who are responsible for making the decisions at the state level, which is unprecedented in American history.  I mean Hillary Clinton spent a considerable amount of time b****ing about the election, and was relentlessly mocked for it.  Trump has taken that sand castle, and built a beach side mansion on top of it.  This is far past questioning an election, it is attacking the actual institutions here.  At the top of the list he is directly targeting the GOP sacred cow of States Rights.  The Lost Cause defense of the Civil War is states rights, yet here we are.  The States have their own systems in place for declaring winners in their state wide elections, and here is the President specifically targeting both the states and their processes for deciding elections.  Where are all of those states right advocates at?  How do they not see this is violation of every single states right covenant built into the constitution?  If we are going to allow federal officials to decide an election, why aren't we getting rid of the states portion of the election and just holding a federal election for a federal office?  This is exactly what Trump is asking for here.  The irony is that it is the GOPs defense of  Lost Cause propaganda that puts them as the defacto defenders of states rights, yet here they are destroying the system which they proport to love, all for a President who himself is a Lost Cause (punctuation intended).

[StrangeSox]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

He is quite literally attacking the wheels of democracy here.  We had a valid election with a clear winner, yet he isn't just questioning the results, he is physically going after the individuals who are responsible for making the decisions at the state level, which is unprecedented in American history.  I mean Hillary Clinton spent a considerable amount of time b****ing about the election, and was relentlessly mocked for it.  Trump has taken that sand castle, and built a beach side mansion on top of it.  This is far past questioning an election, it is attacking the actual institutions here.  At the top of the list he is directly targeting the GOP sacred cow of States Rights.  The Lost Cause defense of the Civil War is states rights, yet here we are.  The States have their own systems in place for declaring winners in their state wide elections, and here is the President specifically targeting both the states and their processes for deciding elections.  Where are all of those states right advocates at?  How do they not see this is violation of every single states right covenant built into the constitution?  If we are going to allow federal officials to decide an election, why aren't we getting rid of the states portion of the election and just holding a federal election for a federal office?  This is exactly what Trump is asking for here.  The irony is that it is the GOPs defense of  Lost Cause propaganda that puts them as the defacto defenders of states rights, yet here they are destroying the system which they proport to love, all for a President who himself is a Lost Cause (punctuation intended).

Their attempt right now is 100% states' rights garbage---the Constitution gives the power of deciding how a state awards its electors to the state legislature. The goal right now is to throw up enough dust to give cover to states to not certify their election results, letting the republican-controlled-via-gerrymandering state legislatures simply choose their preferred slate of electors. There are problems in some states like Michigan where the state legislature has previously passed laws explicitly laying out how the state awards electors, and it can only be based on the outcome of the popular vote in that state. The longshot idea would be that these GOP-controlled legislatures would pass a new law giving them power to appoint in the scenario where the election isn't certified. In MI and PA and WI, the Dem governors would certainly veto, but then you take it to court and see if the GOP judges will go along with an insanely stupid reading of power vesting in state legislatures meaning that they don't need the Governor's approval to change the method of appointment.

A lot of this is going to go down in flames when GA certifies within an hour or so. The GOP SoS stepping up there and very clearly dismissing all of this nonsense was an important and, for his own political future, brave move. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, StrangeSox said:

Their attempt right now is 100% states' rights garbage---the Constitution gives the power of deciding how a state awards its electors to the state legislature. The goal right now is to throw up enough dust to give cover to states to not certify their election results, letting the republican-controlled-via-gerrymandering state legislatures simply choose their preferred slate of electors. There are problems in some states like Michigan where the state legislature has previously passed laws explicitly laying out how the state awards electors, and it can only be based on the outcome of the popular vote in that state. The longshot idea would be that these GOP-controlled legislatures would pass a new law giving them power to appoint in the scenario where the election isn't certified. In MI and PA and WI, the Dem governors would certainly veto, but then you take it to court and see if the GOP judges will go along with an insanely stupid reading of power vesting in state legislatures meaning that they don't need the Governor's approval to change the method of appointment.

A lot of this is going to go down in flames when GA certifies within an hour or so. The GOP SoS stepping up there and very clearly dismissing all of this nonsense was an important and, for his own political future, brave move. 

It is federal interference in the state electoral process.  It is everything that is anti-State's rights.

[Iwritecode]

15 hours ago, greg775 said:

Ditto in Oregon. How dare the government officials order people to skip Thanksgiving and have all these regulations when they are STILL rioting in Portland and busting windows and looting. ...

You must live in a different timeline/reality than the rest of us.

I googled Portland riots and all literally every single news story is from 2 or 3 weeks ago.

[Big Hurtin]

5 minutes ago, Iwritecode said:

You must live in a different timeline/reality than the rest of us.

I googled Portland riots and all literally every single news story is from 2 or 3 weeks ago.

Always has been

[mqr]

11 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

Centrism is great. A few years ago, I would have looked at the centrists like other people in this thread and described them as “losers who stand for nothing”. Stupid sentiment.

Because the spectrum of US politics shifted far enough right for you to be comfortable calling yourself in the Center.

It's not that Centrists believe in nothing, it's that the "Center" doesn't exist. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by mqr

[Danny Dravot]

2 minutes ago, mqr said:

Because the spectrum of US politics shifted far enough right for you to be comfortable calling yourself in the Center. 

Thanks for thinking you understand me, but I actually rethought a lot of my positions and entirely stopped reading/watching the things someone like Greg pays attention to.

I want a public option, I am pro-LGBT, I want police reform and an end to qualified immunity, but I absolutely believe America is the shining city upon the hill and should use diplomatic/military means to push the rest of the world in the right direction.

I am absolutely in the center, with Bushy neocon vibes.