2020 Election Thoughts

[cws0591]

Long LONG time lurker and I had to find my username and password to add my two cents to this whole thing. Greg I get why you are pulling to extremes on this stuff. It’s easy. It’s the way media is going because that is what gets eye balls. But you really need to fight against it. I was really curious about your claim that Portland was still rioting so I did some googling. If you believe that broken windows and graffiti constitutes rioting then Chicago has been rioting since the day I was born…

The answer to mass media issues isn’t watching some guy in Portland hunting down antifa, home video style. I watched about 10 minutes of one of those videos you posted and I had to stop. The guy in the video was even talking about the protestors like they were the enemy. It’s toxic and unhealthy.

The most important thing is that this is a both sides issue and It’s important that you know that I’m not the left attacking the right. I have a buddy at work that thinks socialism is the golden answer to all of Americas problems and every time a black person is killed by a cop its cold blooded murder. And I tell him this for everything he gets ticked off by. Take some time and find information about the issue from as many sources as you can. None will be 100% truth or fact but you can build a pretty good idea as to what the truth and facts are. Mr. portland antifa hunter isn't the authority on Portland and their unrest.

[Danny Dravot]

48 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Dude, his act is lame. I agree with you that there are many ways to serve. But, greg specifically said he'd die for this country, when he had a hard time putting on a mask and staying home. (His haircuts!)

You and I both know people who actually have given their lives, or limbs, or their sanity for this country. And it is THAT specific sacrifice that is debased by a freedom freeloader who tosses a statement out like his. YMMV.

 

Insofar as border/immigration control, Im the son of a parent who was at one time undocumented. Yet my father got his documentation, raised a family, and gave us more opportunity than most. He also provided 3 of his sons to serve this country, which is far more than most native-born Americans. (How many Trumps or Limbaughs or Carlsons served?) I just don't know that xenophobia posed as "border control" is as cut and dried as it is proposed by Trump.

 

I'm hoping that we have a 50/50 split senate after the Georgia elections. That way, rather than pure McConnell obstruction, we can have sensible debate led by Centrists. And thus, we can come up with sensible solutions to many of the issues we face as a country.

With a 50/50 split, moderates will have the bully pulpit, NOT "edge lords" on the far right or far left.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Neither of us know what he does to serve his community or his country. Maybe he does; maybe he doesn’t. Saying he’d die for her is a bit much if he’s not a vet, and especially if he’s not willing to wear a mask. As a lifelong conservative, I’m not a fan of hedonism and the rejection of duty by many when it comes to any sort of pandemic responsibility is absolutely a form of it. A world populated entirely by Trumpers is a world where nobody storms the beaches of Normandy. I went to Afghanistan because it needed to be done, not because it was fun (although it was, at times).

Regarding your father, I’m glad he was able to get here and provide so much to this country. I still believe we have the right and the obligation to secure our borders so that the future journeys of people like your father can have prompt, vetted, humane, and legal entry into this country. I went to basic training with an undocumented immigrant; as far as I’m concerned, that’s automatic citizenship.

I do think it’s a little much to generalize the contributions of people based on their race or SES or documentation status. You came from an originally undocumented family which sacrificed a lot; I came from an upper middle class family which sacrificed a lot. Some undocumented people come here, drop out of school, and live permanently on the fringes of society, offering little. Some people from my situation do the same. Some from both groups turn to crime. Some become loudmouth radio hosts whose bark is worse than their bite. Trump’s wrong to act like migrating Guatemalans represent a massive crime wave, and people on the left are wrong to suggest that immigrants are more American than native born ones. Some? Sure. Not all.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Danny Dravot

[greg775]

8 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

This will now make every election moving forward a farce, all because of one mans ego, and bank account.

No it won't make elections a farce. Hopefully if the review of the voting is done right it'll make elections safer. I don't trust politicians and their parties one iota as evidenced by their behaviors during the pandemic. This review isn't taking very long and it's not hindering Kamala/Joe from getting their staffs in order, etc. Don't see the problem.

Edited November 25, 2020 by greg775

[greg775]

5 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

I’m constantly amazed at how genial you are while constantly getting shit on. So props to you for that.

I’m a war veteran and I don’t find your comment offensive, really.

Thank you I truly didn't mean to offend. I cried at my dad and uncle's funeral at the brilliant military aspects of it. The playing of the trumpet by the Navy personnel and them giving my mom the flag. Ditto my uncle's funeral with the Marines. I cried unashamedly at both. Sorry if my words about dying for my country offended. Since I was not in the service I don't have the right to make such an assertion. If I feel that way I should keep it to myself. One of my best friends was active in Vietnam and I've heard him speak many times about the atrocities and I've tried to help be a lending ear. The military is important to my family and myself. I always thank people in uniform for their service. Hopefully you accept my apology for a bad sentence.

Edited November 25, 2020 by greg775

[greg775]

3 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Dude, his act is lame. I agree with you that there are many ways to serve. But, greg specifically said he'd die for this country, when he had a hard time putting on a mask and staying home. (His haircuts!)

You and I both know people who actually have given their lives, or limbs, or their sanity for this country. And it is THAT specific sacrifice that is debased by a freedom freeloader who tosses a statement out like his. YMMV.

Thanks for your service. I appreciate it.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

especially if he’s not willing to wear a mask. As a lifelong conservative, I’m not a fan of hedonism and the rejection of duty by many when it comes to any sort of pandemic responsibility is absolutely a form of it.

I did want a haircut badly I'll admit it. And wanted my store owning barber buddy to put food on the table. And I did want to go to Mass the entiriety of the pandemic. But I've always worn a mask and am afraid of the virus. I've never been anti mask. I've taken this seriously the whole way through and yes I'm afraid of the virus still. 

[Dick Allen]

2 hours ago, greg775 said:

I did want a haircut badly I'll admit it. And wanted my store owning barber buddy to put food on the table. And I did want to go to Mass the entiriety of the pandemic. But I've always worn a mask and am afraid of the virus. I've never been anti mask. I've taken this seriously the whole way through and yes I'm afraid of the virus still. 

You called your governor a dictator for trying to keep you,your family, and your friends healthy and alive. Sorry, you have not always taken this seriously.  Not even close.

[The Beast]

6 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Dude, his act is lame. I agree with you that there are many ways to serve. But, greg specifically said he'd die for this country, when he had a hard time putting on a mask and staying home. (His haircuts!)

You and I both know people who actually have given their lives, or limbs, or their sanity for this country. And it is THAT specific sacrifice that is debased by a freedom freeloader who tosses a statement out like his. YMMV.

 

Insofar as border/immigration control, Im the son of a parent who was at one time undocumented. Yet my father got his documentation, raised a family, and gave us more opportunity than most. He also provided 3 of his sons to serve this country, which is far more than most native-born Americans. (How many Trumps or Limbaughs or Carlsons served?) I just don't know that xenophobia posed as "border control" is as cut and dried as it is proposed by Trump.

 

I'm hoping that we have a 50/50 split senate after the Georgia elections. That way, rather than pure McConnell obstruction, we can have sensible debate led by Centrists. And thus, we can come up with sensible solutions to many of the issues we face as a country.

With a 50/50 split, moderates will have the bully pulpit, NOT "edge lords" on the far right or far left.

 

5 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Neither of us know what he does to serve his community or his country. Maybe he does; maybe he doesn’t. Saying he’d die for her is a bit much if he’s not a vet, and especially if he’s not willing to wear a mask. As a lifelong conservative, I’m not a fan of hedonism and the rejection of duty by many when it comes to any sort of pandemic responsibility is absolutely a form of it. A world populated entirely by Trumpers is a world where nobody storms the beaches of Normandy. I went to Afghanistan because it needed to be done, not because it was fun (although it was, at times).

Regarding your father, I’m glad he was able to get here and provide so much to this country. I still believe we have the right and the obligation to secure our borders so that the future journeys of people like your father can have prompt, vetted, humane, and legal entry into this country. I went to basic training with an undocumented immigrant; as far as I’m concerned, that’s automatic citizenship.

I do think it’s a little much to generalize the contributions of people based on their race or SES or documentation status. You came from an originally undocumented family which sacrificed a lot; I came from an upper middle class family which sacrificed a lot. Some undocumented people come here, drop out of school, and live permanently on the fringes of society, offering little. Some people from my situation do the same. Some from both groups turn to crime. Some become loudmouth radio hosts whose bark is worse than their bite. Trump’s wrong to act like migrating Guatemalans represent a massive crime wave, and people on the left are wrong to suggest that immigrants are more American than native born ones. Some? Sure. Not all.

What do you guys think should be done to immigration laws, especially if the congress goes 50/50? Are any reforms from previous legislation relevant or helpful towards a new bill? I’m not looking for an “enforcing the laws” answer because there is much more nuance than that.

[Texsox]

25 minutes ago, The Beast said:

 

What do you guys think should be done to immigration laws, especially if the congress goes 50/50? Are any reforms from previous legislation relevant or helpful towards a new bill? I’m not looking for an “enforcing the laws” answer because there is much more nuance than that.

You didn't ask me but . . .

Documented low wage workers collect more in benefits than they pay in taxes through the Earned Income Tax Credit plus qualifying for other benefits.  When someone takes that job, but doesn't qualify for those benefits, taxpayers benefit in a way. Therefore there is a built in tax advantage in not wanting to fix this issue. It's also a nice issue to campaign with every once in a while. 

Additionally and specifically to a critical industry agriculture, we depend on migrant workers to feed this country.  The US has become a net importer of human food products.  Many of our imports are fast food proteins and seasonal produce from the south while our fields are frozen. 

I propose a guest worker program similar  to what was used during WW2. Document the guest workers,  offer a scaled back benefit program,  and a long term path to citizenship.  Directly tie the number of workers to available jobs like the H1B visas. We also need to make the system easier and cheaper.  Currently economically it makes more sense economically to come here for a mid to higher income job.  It seems backwards to me.  We spend a lot of time and money protecting the lowest wage jobs while filling our software companies and hospitals with high wage immigrants.  

 

[Danny Dravot]

10 minutes ago, The Beast said:

 

What do you guys think should be done to immigration laws, especially if the congress goes 50/50? Are any reforms from previous legislation relevant or helpful towards a new bill? I’m not looking for an “enforcing the laws” answer because there is much more nuance than that.

Path to citizenship for childhood arrivals and other meritorious cases (like anyone willing to serve in military). Deportation for undocumented people who commit crimes unrelated to their immigration status. No wall (I’ve driven Rte 9 into Columbus NM, we don’t need a wall). Increased funding for Border Patrol to pay for more agents (create jobs), vehicles and sensors. Use those elements to drive traffic towards official ports of entry and encourage expeditiously processed yet vetted legal immigration. Heavy fines for companies that employ undocumented immigrants.

I see politicians on the left talk about improving technology at ports of entry; I’ve spent time working in support of Border Patrol and that’s really not necessary. They’ve got state of the art x-ray machines, dogs, scanners and so on that they run everything through. If they’re paying attention and you’re crossing with drugs, they’ll catch you. Problem is, they’re often not paying attention because it’s two guys who sit in an office and watch 8,000 vehicles come through a day. Part of the reason me and my soldiers were down there was to augment this. Of course, that mission funding ended, so increase the actual organization’s funding and get some extra eyes in there to help out and keep that shit out of our country (it is correctly pointed out that most contraband enters through vehicular POEs).

Last thing, there’s no reason for the inhumanity of the Trump administration. Under Obama, we were slapping monitors on undocumented crossers out in the Sonoran desert and telling them to show up to court weeks later in a city they’ve never been to before and then never hearing from them again. So Trump comes up with zero tolerance which results in two disasters: family separation and “children in cages”. We need to find a way to quench that flow so that we don’t solve the DACA issue today and host the same conversation again decades in the future with a new crop of arrivals. I’m not entirely sure how to do that, but we need to place our role as a world leader well above our fear of “OMG there’s too many brown people here!”

Anyways, dinner’s almost here. Happy to answer other questions later.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, The Beast said:

 

What do you guys think should be done to immigration laws, especially if the congress goes 50/50? Are any reforms from previous legislation relevant or helpful towards a new bill? I’m not looking for an “enforcing the laws” answer because there is much more nuance than that.

The Bush-style immigration bill could probably get 52-53 votes, including extra border security and a path to citizenship with a large fee and an expanded guest-worker program. But it would never come to the floor with Mitch McConnell as Majority Leader. If the senate is 50/50 with Harris as the deciding vote for a Majority Leader, a bill that would have been seen as a compromise in 2007 could pass. 

If the Senate were 50/50, the DREAM act will pass easily within weeks, eliminating the need for DACA. There's already probably 60+ votes for it, maybe more. It could have passed any year for the past 8 years if McConnell wasn't in charge.

[pcq]

Guys this is not Oprah just stop. 

[greg775]

6 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

You called your governor a dictator for trying to keep you,your family, and your friends healthy and alive. Sorry, you have not always taken this seriously.  Not even close.

Whatever. I can sleep well knowing I have worn my mask throughout and have basically only put myself at risk on a handful of occasions eating with a buddy or relative at a restaurant (usually outdoors, always with mask), going to Mass, going to the barber. Yes I can hold a discussion about how unfair I feel and felt it is for government officials to say 'Do as I say not as I do.' And the ilk. You are very wrong that I have not taken this seriously. I have basically been a recluse working remotely, declining travel, wearing my mask. Nothing I can do to change anybody's opinion on a message board so I won't try. I don't think I'm evil; if you think I am evil, peace. I'm going to try to start posting less because my opinions evolve, certainly evolve in a span of nine months. And I don't do a good job of expressing my feelings.

As far as the governor, she did a better job when she actually started seeking other people's opinions, medical opinions, rather than making dictatorial decisions on her own. Remember back in March/April, governors were out of line huffing and puffing in harsh language. As this thing continued, the governor "lightened up" a bit and actually stopped talking down to people. I'd never vote for her again but she improved her demeanor. As a citizen and taxpayer I have a right to feel this way about her.

Edited November 26, 2020 by greg775

[pcq]

So the Repubs found a PA judge to freeze the cert process. I hope she gets rebuked for doing that and expect she will. I wonder if the recall process can be used in some states. I guess leaders get to change reality. I wish talk show hosts were required to demonstrate their evidence in court. 

Edited November 26, 2020 by pcq

[Texsox]

16 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

Path to citizenship for childhood arrivals and other meritorious cases (like anyone willing to serve in military). Deportation for undocumented people who commit crimes unrelated to their immigration status. No wall (I’ve driven Rte 9 into Columbus NM, we don’t need a wall). Increased funding for Border Patrol to pay for more agents (create jobs), vehicles and sensors. Use those elements to drive traffic towards official ports of entry and encourage expeditiously processed yet vetted legal immigration. Heavy fines for companies that employ undocumented immigrants.

I see politicians on the left talk about improving technology at ports of entry; I’ve spent time working in support of Border Patrol and that’s really not necessary. They’ve got state of the art x-ray machines, dogs, scanners and so on that they run everything through. If they’re paying attention and you’re crossing with drugs, they’ll catch you. Problem is, they’re often not paying attention because it’s two guys who sit in an office and watch 8,000 vehicles come through a day. Part of the reason me and my soldiers were down there was to augment this. Of course, that mission funding ended, so increase the actual organization’s funding and get some extra eyes in there to help out and keep that shit out of our country (it is correctly pointed out that most contraband enters through vehicular POEs).

Last thing, there’s no reason for the inhumanity of the Trump administration. Under Obama, we were slapping monitors on undocumented crossers out in the Sonoran desert and telling them to show up to court weeks later in a city they’ve never been to before and then never hearing from them again. So Trump comes up with zero tolerance which results in two disasters: family separation and “children in cages”. We need to find a way to quench that flow so that we don’t solve the DACA issue today and host the same conversation again decades in the future with a new crop of arrivals. I’m not entirely sure how to do that, but we need to place our role as a world leader well above our fear of “OMG there’s too many brown people here!”

Anyways, dinner’s almost here. Happy to answer other questions later.

I believe serving in the military now comes with a path for legal status.  In the past you had to die and it would be granted posthumously.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 11/25/2020 at 11:23 AM, Danny Dravot said:

Saying he’d die for her is a bit much if he’s not a vet, and especially if he’s not willing to wear a mask. As a lifelong conservative, I’m not a fan of hedonism and the rejection of duty by many when it comes to any sort of pandemic responsibility is absolutely a form of it. A world populated entirely by Trumpers is a world where nobody storms the beaches of Normandy. I went to Afghanistan because it needed to be done, not because it was fun (although it was, at times).

You came from an originally undocumented family which sacrificed a lot; I came from an upper middle class family which sacrificed a lot.

Regarding the underlined, I'm flabbergasted that many/most so-called "conservative" commentators are FOR the rejection of duty, especially wrt doing their part to stop COVID.

Just tune into right wing radio, and its "dictatorship," "socialism," & "communism" to ask people to stay home/wear a mask. "Mah freedums" is more important than doing your fuckcing part. Shit like this is why we need a fucking draft, or at least, some form of mandatory service. Its comical that so-called "conservatives" embrace hedonism, & reject their Patriotic Duty.

 

WRT the bolded, lemme clarify:

I was born in Christ Hospital, and thus, am a native born citizen. Papa Two Guns held a 15 month old Two-Gun Pete in one arm, as he held his other to take the oath of citizenship. So, while HE had been undocumented at one point, my family was not.

Once upon a time, Papa Two Guns didn't have his docs worked out before arriving in Jim Crow Florida. Back then, they'd let you leave the US, get your shit sorted, then come back. Which is what he did.

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 11/25/2020 at 5:07 PM, The Beast said:

 

What do you guys think should be done to immigration laws, especially if the congress goes 50/50? Are any reforms from previous legislation relevant or helpful towards a new bill? I’m not looking for an “enforcing the laws” answer because there is much more nuance than that.

1. Absolutely the DREAM ACT should be signed into law.

2. Increase the number of refugees allowed in.

3. Bar/deport serious criminals who enter.

4. Pathway to citizenship for law-abiding undocumented immigrants otherwise not covered by other legal statuses; if you get a hair up your ass to enforce some sort of penalty, make it a fine of some sort, proportionate to an immigrants means.

5. No wall; its a complete fucking waste of time and money.

6. End the travel ban.

Did I miss anything?

[Jerksticks]

5 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

1. Absolutely the DREAM ACT should be signed into law.

2. Increase the number of refugees allowed in.

3. Bar/deport serious criminals who enter.

4. Pathway to citizenship for law-abiding undocumented immigrants otherwise not covered by other legal statuses; if you get a hair up your ass to enforce some sort of penalty, make it a fine of some sort, proportionate to an immigrants means.

5. No wall; its a complete fucking waste of time and money.

6. End the travel ban.

Did I miss anything?

All good except the obvious. 

So the minute you announce some kind of amnesty pathway for everybody...

[Two-Gun Pete]

9 hours ago, Texsox said:

I believe serving in the military now comes with a path for legal status.  In the past you had to die and it would be granted posthumously.  

And yet, there's this:

Deported Vets story from the Military Times

And this:

NPR Story about deported vets

This country has fucked some of those guys over.

[southsider2k5]

?

 

[Danny Dravot]

4 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Regarding the underlined, I'm flabbergasted that many/most so-called "conservative" commentators are FOR the rejection of duty, especially wrt doing their part to stop COVID.

Just tune into right wing radio, and its "dictatorship," "socialism," & "communism" to ask people to stay home/wear a mask. "Mah freedums" is more important than doing your fuckcing part. Shit like this is why we need a fucking draft, or at least, some form of mandatory service. Its comical that so-called "conservatives" embrace hedonism, & reject their Patriotic Duty.

 

WRT the bolded, lemme clarify:

I was born in Christ Hospital, and thus, am a native born citizen. Papa Two Guns held a 15 month old Two-Gun Pete in one arm, as he held his other to take the oath of citizenship. So, while HE had been undocumented at one point, my family was not.

Once upon a time, Papa Two Guns didn't have his docs worked out before arriving in Jim Crow Florida. Back then, they'd let you leave the US, get your shit sorted, then come back. Which is what he did.

Trust me- in a vacuum, I’d continue calling myself conservative. It’s what I have always been. But I’ve long turned up my nose at people who seemed to lack a stiff upper lip and aimed their politics more at helping themselves rather than their country. I’d have considered a lot of those people to be of the left and I’d piss off a lot of posters if I started elaborating on where I saw them. Now, however, I’m seeing them clearly all over my fucking “team” too. Not thrilled about it.

I appreciate you sharing your backstory and I hope my “originally undocumented” comment didn’t bug you. I was just trying to summarize your situation as well as I understood it.

Also, WRT the draft, I like the sentiment but disagree. It would decrease the quality of soldiers in general, IMO.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Danny Dravot

[pcq]

The Rudy Crewdy has a PA computer guy observer who saw USB drives carried in a plastic bag and says there is a chain of custody issue. Except they cannot prove any votes were changed or affected and once again ignore that pesky burden of proof issue. The stay order got thrown out with the turkey scraps. 

[Danny Dravot]

11 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And yet, there's this:

Deported Vets story from the Military Times

And this:

NPR Story about deported vets

This country has fucked some of those guys over.

I saw some things that I’ll never forget when I was down range (like finding what was left of a DUSTWUN) and I have friends who have much more serious PTSD than I do, to the extent that some of them permanently avoid fireworks shows. None of us have committed felonies as a result, though, so I’m relatively unsympathetic to veterans who do so and then attribute it to their traumatic experiences. They have besmirched themselves and their services.

That being said, they should not be deported. Treat them as we would any other American criminals.

[The Beast]

Worth reading:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/27/blame-game-erupts-over-trumps-decline-in-youth-vote-440811
 

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/26/trump-conspiracies-georgia-senate-440776

[Kyyle23]

It's interesting that the GOP is letting Trump go campaign in Georgia for Perdue and Loeffler. He hasn't exactly had the Midas touch when he backs GOP candidates