2020 Election Thoughts

[Two-Gun Pete]

12 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

It’s a complicated answer and the mods probably don’t want the thread derailed so much. Honestly, what I truly want probably isn’t coming, ever, but I think Trump gone and split legis/exec is what will probably get me closest to my goals. Feel free to DM if you want to discuss more.

Nah, I think you're fine to discuss your views here. You've been on topic, and discussing the possible outcomes of the GA runoff IS topical to the election.

 

I mean, it's not like you just created a sock puppet, only posted twice, one of which was to defend Trump, which is off topic. (Like the poster above this one.)

[pcq]

55 minutes ago, SoxKing3002 said:

Soooo I guess invoking the Defense Production Act to get private corporations to produce ventilators and other PPE when the previous administration depleted the supply. Providing a naval ship to NYC with hospital beds which the the stupid evil governor of NY forced nursing homes to accept covid patients and Operation warp speed to produce vaccines was not giving a damn to fighting the virus. I guess this all doesn't fit the narrative and leftist playbook when you get your news from exclusively the View.

It is what it is. That's our policy. 

[southsider2k5]

59 minutes ago, SoxKing3002 said:

Soooo I guess invoking the Defense Production Act to get private corporations to produce ventilators and other PPE when the previous administration depleted the supply. Providing a naval ship to NYC with hospital beds which the the stupid evil governor of NY forced nursing homes to accept covid patients and Operation warp speed to produce vaccines was not giving a damn to fighting the virus. I guess this all doesn't fit the narrative and leftist playbook when you get your news from exclusively the View.

And this is what happens when you elevate the President to cult leader status.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

And this is what happens when you elevate the President to cult leader status.

Such as DPA failures

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/22/health/Covid-Trump-Defense-Production-Act.html

[southsider2k5]

The President defending China instead of telling us the truth

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/15/trump-china-coronavirus-188736

[southsider2k5]

The President trying to own a vaccine to enrich himself.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/germany-confirms-that-donald-trump-tried-to-buy-firm-working-on-coronavirus-vaccine/amp/

[southsider2k5]

The President getting stimulus funds while blocking money for others

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/over-365-million-ppp-loans-given-businesses-ties-trump-organization-kushner-properties-1551853%3famp=1

[southsider2k5]

The President shut down the pandemic preparedness team

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/trump-obama-coronavirus-pandemic-response

[SoxKing3002]

25 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And this is what happens when you elevate the President to cult leader status.

 

25 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And this is what happens when you elevate the President to cult leader status.

With all do respect do not elevate anyone to cult status. Does Trump have personality flaws, yes. Is he solely responsible for dividing the nation, I think not. Has he done much to unify the nation? That's a resounding no. But based on policy and accomplishments, if you think President elect Biden will be better for this country, you must really not think highly of your country.

Edited December 5, 2020 by SoxKing3002

[southsider2k5]

40 minutes ago, SoxKing3002 said:

 

With all do respect do not elevate anyone to cult status. Does Trump have personality flaws, yes. Is he solely responsible for dividing the nation, I think not. Has he done much to unify the nation? That's a resounding no. But based on policy and accomplishments, if you think President elect Biden will be better for this country, you must really not think highly of your country.

The President only believes in enriching himself at your expense. 

[pettie4sox]

39 minutes ago, SoxKing3002 said:

 

With all do respect do not elevate anyone to cult status. Does Trump have personality flaws, yes. Is he solely responsible for dividing the nation, I think not. Has he done much to unify the nation? That's a resounding no. But based on policy and accomplishments, if you think President elect Biden will be better for this country, you must really not think highly of your country.

Is it possible they both suck in your eyes or nah?  I don't get why people automatically assume a trump hater is a leftist or something.  Newsflash bro, Biden is a fucking republican if you really look at this record.  I know it's hard to see past the D and R with some folks but you'll be amazed what you'll find when you actually look at one's record.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, pettie4sox said:

Is it possible they both suck in your eyes or nah?  I don't get why people automatically assume a trump hater is a leftist or something.  Newsflash bro, Biden is a fucking republican if you really look at this record.  I know it's hard to see past the D and R with some folks but you'll be amazed what you'll find when you actually look at one's record.

Which is what happens when you only listen to what the President tells you to listen to.

[NWINFan]

2 hours ago, SoxKing3002 said:

Soooo I guess invoking the Defense Production Act to get private corporations to produce ventilators and other PPE when the previous administration depleted the supply. Providing a naval ship to NYC with hospital beds which the the stupid evil governor of NY forced nursing homes to accept covid patients and Operation warp speed to produce vaccines was not giving a damn to fighting the virus. I guess this all doesn't fit the narrative and leftist playbook when you get your news from exclusively the View.

I am a leftist but I don't watch the View. The simple fact is Trump kept telling us things were getting better when they weren't. And please don't give Trump credit for the vaccines. He next to nothing regarding that and only wanted them out to enhance his election chances. And he acted way slowly on the Defense Production Act and he did little to provide equipment to health care providers. Finally, right now he is not communicating nothing to the incoming Biden Administration regarding vaccine distribution and also is not providing national security information as well. And if he cared so much, why did his family, staff, Secret Service Detail, and supports get the virus due to his negligence? Operation Warp Speed, my ass.

[southsider2k5]

Only the best.

 

[southsider2k5]

 

[southsider2k5]

 

[Danny Dravot]

2 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Nah, I think you're fine to discuss your views here. You've been on topic, and discussing the possible outcomes of the GA runoff IS topical to the election.

 

I mean, it's not like you just created a sock puppet, only posted twice, one of which was to defend Trump, which is off topic. (Like the poster above this one.)

Lol, OK then...

I want an interventionist foreign policy with patriotic leaders who believe in America. Trump is an isolationist who lashes out every so often (Soleimani, Baghdadi, etc) while mixing in some insanely stupid thoughts (let's raid Syria's oil wells!) and not appreciating the boring but vital parts of being Team America: Globe Cop (maintaining or increasing troop levels in Germany, fully supporting the democratically elected government of Afghanistan rather than negotiating with Taliban thugs, using TPP to isolate China, etc). I also don't believe he can make America great again because I don't think he understands what makes America great in the first place (I very much support capitalism and constitutional rights, but being able to own military rifles with bump stocks and silencers without a background check while paying as little as possible in taxes and coughing freely on each other during a pandemic is NOT the answer).

In Georgia, neither Ossoff nor Warnock even bother to have foreign policy sections on their campaign pages. I have some minor disagreements with both of them (Ossoff, for one, is pro-choice and seeks to abolish the death penalty) but whatever. Their healthcare ideas aren't terrible and not that far from mine. At a cursory glance, they focus on Medicaid expansion without mentioning M4A. I'm OK with that. But I really can't get over the foreign policy stuff- I suspect both would wish to rejoin JCPOA rather than upping the pressure on the Iranians. While military force should be a last resort, I believe for both of them it would be a non-resort. For Warnock, his statements about not serving God and the military and his support of people like Jeremiah Wright suggest an Obama-ish "fundamentally changing America" approach. I believe in constructive criticism and in making the country better, but if you don't agree that America is still the last best hope for man and the shining city upon a hill in spite of its well known flaws, then I'm really not interested. I suspect this is the case with both of these men. So I reject them more than I accept Loeffler and Perdue.

Lastly, Joe Biden might govern as a progressive, or he might prove @pettie4sox right and be a total Republican. Who knows. I do like some of his cabinet appointments (such as Blinken and Flournoy, who's not official yet but I'm sure it's coming). I was never going to vote for Trump this year and I was just going to abstain from Biden as well, but he won me over by constantly talking about how America can do anything she sets her mind to. I don't think he will be perfect and I suspect I will end up heavily criticizing certain parts of his administration, but the appointments and attitude so far fit decently with what I want. I think having a slightly Republican Senate would prevent more aggressively progressive pushes.

[southsider2k5]

 

[pcq]

3 hours ago, NWINFan said:

I am a leftist but I don't watch the View. The simple fact is Trump kept telling us things were getting better when they weren't. And please don't give Trump credit for the vaccines. He next to nothing regarding that and only wanted them out to enhance his election chances. And he acted way slowly on the Defense Production Act and he did little to provide equipment to health care providers. Finally, right now he is not communicating nothing to the incoming Biden Administration regarding vaccine distribution and also is not providing national security information as well. And if he cared so much, why did his family, staff, Secret Service Detail, and supports get the virus due to his negligence? Operation Warp Speed, my ass.

We have yet to see how the vaccines are distributed. Maybe to red states while Jared takes a piece of the action. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

5 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

Lol, OK then...

I want an interventionist foreign policy with patriotic leaders who believe in America. Trump is an isolationist who lashes out every so often (Soleimani, Baghdadi, etc) while mixing in some insanely stupid thoughts (let's raid Syria's oil wells!) and not appreciating the boring but vital parts of being Team America: Globe Cop (maintaining or increasing troop levels in Germany, fully supporting the democratically elected government of Afghanistan rather than negotiating with Taliban thugs, using TPP to isolate China, etc). I also don't believe he can make America great again because I don't think he understands what makes America great in the first place (I very much support capitalism and constitutional rights, but being able to own military rifles with bump stocks and silencers without a background check while paying as little as possible in taxes and coughing freely on each other during a pandemic is NOT the answer).

In Georgia, neither Ossoff nor Warnock even bother to have foreign policy sections on their campaign pages. I have some minor disagreements with both of them (Ossoff, for one, is pro-choice and seeks to abolish the death penalty) but whatever. Their healthcare ideas aren't terrible and not that far from mine. At a cursory glance, they focus on Medicaid expansion without mentioning M4A. I'm OK with that. But I really can't get over the foreign policy stuff- I suspect both would wish to rejoin JCPOA rather than upping the pressure on the Iranians. While military force should be a last resort, I believe for both of them it would be a non-resort. For Warnock, his statements about not serving God and the military and his support of people like Jeremiah Wright suggest an Obama-ish "fundamentally changing America" approach. I believe in constructive criticism and in making the country better, but if you don't agree that America is still the last best hope for man and the shining city upon a hill in spite of its well known flaws, then I'm really not interested. I suspect this is the case with both of these men. So I reject them more than I accept Loeffler and Perdue.

Lastly, Joe Biden might govern as a progressive, or he might prove @pettie4sox right and be a total Republican. Who knows. I do like some of his cabinet appointments (such as Blinken and Flournoy, who's not official yet but I'm sure it's coming). I was never going to vote for Trump this year and I was just going to abstain from Biden as well, but he won me over by constantly talking about how America can do anything she sets her mind to. I don't think he will be perfect and I suspect I will end up heavily criticizing certain parts of his administration, but the appointments and attitude so far fit decently with what I want. I think having a slightly Republican Senate would prevent more aggressively progressive pushes.

OK, I appreciate your thoughtful response to this. But, I consider the effect of either keeping the two Reps, or putting in two Dems that are from Red States.

 

If we were to use a sort of ZiPS projection/"similarity scores" for Dems-In-Red-States, lets take a look at a report card for recent Senators: Recent Senators, ranked by ideology [I tried to steer clear from far left or far right sources, so I chose this site; if you have another source, I'm open to reading it.]

1. Manchin-D, WV is ranked to the right of Corker-R, TN.

2. Donnelly-D, IN was ranked to the right of Shelby-R, AL and Portman-R OH.

3. Heitkamp-D, ND was ranked to the right of Murkowski-R, AK and Collins-R,ME

Given these examples of Red State Dems, I'd guess that Ossoff and Warnock would lie somewhere between Manchin and McCaskill. IOW, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE.

By contrast? Perdue was the 6th-most far right Senator. And the other stock cheat from Georgia, Loeffler, isn't much of a conservative, so much as she's a Trumpist.  Anything that could threaten her precious stock market [intervention] won't be on her list, for example.

Since we agree it'll be either BOTH GOPers, or BOTH Dems out of these runoffs, what would be the INDIVIDUAL effect of the two GOPers? IMO, they'd likely take a win as a mandate, and continue to self-deal. And continue to be party > Country types. Loeffler's not really a conservative, so much as she is what you despise, a Trumpist populist, which would only embolden Trumpist types going forward. What would be the effect of the two DEMS? IMO, they'd be smack-dab in the middle, or they'll lose their asses off back home. We've already seen the examples of Manchin, and McCaskill and Tester and others; I think Ossoff and Warnock would likely be the same.

 

The other aspect to consider is the effect on the two caucuses. Again, if McConnell is given the majority leadership, I think he's already shown us what he is. He's a party-first type that will do ANYTHING, even lie his ass off about his intentions, if it scores him political points. And even, to the potential detriment of the country. If you're an Illinois native, what McConnell is is a perhaps less-overtly corrupt, yet equally self-serving partisan Mike Madigan. Which is fooking horrifying, because it comes with national and international consequences.

 The effect on the two caucuses IF the 2 GOPers win would be gridlock, and exactly nothing getting done. Self-dealers in the Senate won't get their comeuppance,  and while we're in a pandemic, McConnell will try to tank the economy, so he can expand his Senate majority.

The effect on the two caucuses IF the 2 DEMS win will be that the most senior moderate senators from both sides will have the bully pulpit. THEIR voices will be more prominent, and more influential. Since NONE of the moderate Senators want ANY of the scare-tactic items passed, they ain't gonna pass. Manchin and Romney and Collins and Tester don't want court packing or for the 2nd amendment to be overturn. [So greg, you can stop making sock puppets. Ben Shapiro and tucker SWANSON carlson  and all the mouthbreathers you allow to lead you around by the balls are wrong. OK?]

 

With respect to the bolded part of your post, I think that Loeffler especially will perpetuate Trumpist themes and views, while McConnell obstructs, like EVERYTHING.

With respect to the underlined part of your post, I think that Warnock and Ossoff will be centrists. And while you might have an INDIVIDUAL quarrel with one or the other, the overall effect on the CAUCUSES will be positive, from a moderate's POV. They've already got some ideas you like. I think that they'll have some you won't like, but as very junior senators, they aint gonna get much done on their own, other than to help usher in an era of moderation and sanity and normalcy in our governance. 

With respect to the italicized part of your post, I think that the moderating effect of MORE MODERATES in the Senate will lead to more moderate legislation. Biden will have to court Manchin and Tester and Collins and Portman and Ossoff and Warnock. McConnell would have to do the same. But, if it'll be the 2 GOPers, it'll be obstruction, a slower economy, a slower recovery from COVID, all so that McConnell can get his jollies. 

Just, IMO. I too am mainly a moderate, though on some things I might be to the right of you [a draft, for example], and some things I might be to the left of you [our use of treaties as "force multipliers" to enhance our influence on the international scene, or a public option for the ACA, for example].

 

That said, I think you and I and the rest of this nation would get exactly JACK and SHIT if the 2 GOPers win. If the 2 DEMs wins, I think you and I and the rest of the nation would get SOME OF the things we like, SOME OF the things we don't like, and more sanity and normalcy in governance. I mean, we're not talking about 2 Senators from California, or Illinois, or New York here. We're talking about 2 moderates vs 2 party/trumpist loyalists. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[KipWellsFan]

4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

Just part of what Greg refers to as a healthy "review" of the election. :)

[Danny Dravot]

@Two-Gun Pete Likewise, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I also applaud you for arguing to your “adversary’s” perspective, rather than from your own. Too many would say, “Oh you don’t want x [super progressive thing?!” It doesn’t get far as a persuasive device. Pointing out that, yeah, I really do despise what Kelly Loeffler really does hit much harder.

I will admit that part of the hang up here is my own history. Not too long ago and for all of the time before that, I was a serious dyed in the wool conservative. I’ve done a lot of moderating this year and I’ve developed much more nuance in my views. I’ve come to realize that, because I tend towards neoconservatism, allying with paleoconservatism for any reason doesn’t help me at all. In 2016, I figured Trump was a nasty buffoon but he was a nasty buffoon on my team so I just did what I always did.

It’s all much smoother now- sure, if you identify as a Marxist-Leninist, we’ll agree on absolutely nothing, but for the most part it’s no longer “Democrats evil, Republicans good.” I like Mitt Romney, I like Larry Hogan, I like John Delaney, and I am starting to actually like Joe Biden. At the same time, it’s now clear that there are parts of the right that I despise as much as certain parts of the left. Voting for Republicans is still my gut instinct, but I have to remind myself that not all Republicans are MY Republicans and not all Democrats are THEIR Democrats. I’m working on it.

FWIW, Ted Cruz, who’s much more important here because he is actually my senator, has gotten to a level of depravity and cowardice that I will decline to vote for him in 2024. Perhaps even vote against him (although not if it’s Beto).

Edited December 5, 2020 by Danny Dravot

[Danny Dravot]

Also, @Two-Gun Pete, you do make a rather convincing argument that the two GA Dems will likely be moderates. Loeffler and others are out there claiming Warnock would be one of the most progressive and radical Senators if elected but that doesn’t line up with the history of blue senators in red states. I wish I could hear more about their foreign policy views, however.

I will also say that, while claiming to be a moderate, I am really not a moderate on the things that I care about. This is important because a couple of years ago, like some posters in this thread, I’d have referred to moderates as “squishes who stand for nothing”. I’m not interested in fighting counterproductive culture wars (minus abortion, however) and I’m willing to enact a public option and raise the minimum wage, but I want 1000-fucking-% to knock off the regimes in Tehran and Pyongyang and to put ultimately unbearable pressure on authoritarians everywhere else.

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, Danny Dravot said:

Also, @Two-Gun Pete, you do make a rather convincing argument that the two GA Dems will likely be moderates.

Loeffler and others are out there claiming Warnock would be one of the most progressive and radical Senators if elected but that doesn’t line up with the history of blue senators in red states. I wish I could hear more about their foreign policy views, however.

I will also say that, while claiming to be a moderate, I am really not a moderate on the things that I care about. This is important because a couple of years ago, like some posters in this thread, I’d have referred to moderates as “squishes who stand for nothing”. I’m not interested in fighting counterproductive culture wars (minus abortion, however) and I’m willing to enact a public option and raise the minimum wage, but I want 1000-fucking-% to knock off the regimes in Tehran and Pyongyang and to put ultimately unbearable pressure on authoritarians everywhere else.

Yeah, if you look at the bolded, this is a product of the stoopid outrage media that gullible sheep like Greg listen to. Seriously, if you allow a turd like Mark Levin think for you, you're being led around by the balls or the labia.

The most common strategy of morons on OANN, FOX, & conservative media for outrage:

1. Label ALL DEMOCRATS as "socialists, communists," or the like

2. Claim that they're out to take your rights away

3. Claim that GOPers/Trump, and ONLY GOPers/Trump will "fight for you"

4. If you agree with "we the people," you're "a patriot." (Even if you're a freedom freeloader that never served.)

 

Its a media formula that drives ratings, because outrage is popular, and most Americans hate to bother to think for themselves. Unfortunately, its also allowed the sheeple like greg who get lead around by their balls to contribute to an increase in polarization in our politics.

 

Now, a post ago, you admitted that it used to be "Democrats bad, Republicans good." But you yourself have conceded that this isn't necessarily so. And,  if one actually bothers to use their own brains, you could see that there are moderates in both sides of the aisle that AREN'T "socialists." And that find ways to work together with folks on both sides of the aisle.

I think most people, if they actually think about what they believe in, and what they'd support, most would find some things that are "liberal," as well as some things that are "conservative." I think most people, if they actually used their fucking brains  could/would find value on both sides of the aisle.

Unfortunately, most folks aren't going to bother to engage their own brains. They'd rather have tucker Carlson think FOR them. Or Rachel Maddow think FOR them...

[Danny Dravot]

5 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yeah, if you look at the bolded, this is a product of the stoopid outrage media that gullible sheep like Greg listen to. Seriously, if you allow a turd like Mark Levin think for you, you're being led around by the balls or the labia.

The most common strategy of morons on OANN, FOX, & conservative media for outrage:

1. Label ALL DEMOCRATS as "socialists, communists," or the like

2. Claim that they're out to take your rights away

3. Claim that GOPers/Trump, and ONLY GOPers/Trump will "fight for you"

4. If you agree with "we the people," you're "a patriot." (Even if you're a freedom freeloader that never served.)

 

Its a media formula that drives ratings, because outrage is popular, and most Americans hate to bother to think for themselves. Unfortunately, its also allowed the sheeple like greg who get lead around by their balls to contribute to an increase in polarization in our politics.

 

Now, a post ago, you admitted that it used to be "Democrats bad, Republicans good." But you yourself have conceded that this isn't necessarily so. And,  if one actually bothers to use their own brains, you could see that there are moderates in both sides of the aisle that AREN'T "socialists." And that find ways to work together with folks on both sides of the aisle.

I think most people, if they actually think about what they believe in, and what they'd support, most would find some things that are "liberal," as well as some things that are "conservative." I think most people, if they actually used their fucking brains  could/would find value on both sides of the aisle.

Unfortunately, most folks aren't going to bother to engage their own brains. They'd rather have tucker Carlson think FOR them. Or Rachel Maddow think FOR them...

I agree. I never listened to Mark Levin or Rush Limbaugh or even Tucker Carlson, but I did read certain blogs that really influenced my thoughts. I stopped a while back but I check in on them occasionally- they’re all going on about voter fraud and so forth. I just had to get away from all that. Not only does it make you stupid but it makes you angry as fuck, too.

I always laugh when people talk about how Trump is the only one who fights for “us”. The commenters on those blogs I mentioned (along with the bloggers themselves) would refer to Never Trumpers like David French as gutless wimps who don’t fight. But French goes to court all the time to represent campus free speech cases, and he WINS. Is that not fighting? The same people also hate GW Bush. But Bush built coalitions to fight two wars, passed an anti-abortion act, a massive education reform act, a tax cut, and managed to win the popular vote on the way to a second term. You can disagree with whether all of that was wise, but the dude clearly fought for his world view and did it well. Trump used a friendly Congress to get one tax cut passed and then did a bunch of unilateral stuff. They say he fights because he acts like a belligerent ass at rallies. Whoopdedoo.

I’m happier now because I’m less caught up on outrage-game bullshit and because my vote is no longer guaranteed. Mitt vs. Bernie? I’ll donate a month’s salary to Mitt. Delaney vs. Loeffler? Dem all the way.