2020 Election Thoughts

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

I need to research why we give presidents that power. But on first glance, if Trump abuses his power in this way, there needs to be an amendment to the constitution preventing it from ever happening again. We can't give free reign to a president to mount a coup and then everyone goes home with stories. 

Read the linked article. It actually answers that question, with perspective from historians and a description from Alexander Hamilton.

[Jack Parkman]

49 minutes ago, Texsox said:

OK. ideology matters. If the harshest sentence for breaking into the capital is life in prison what should some receive who isn't a fascist? I believe they should also get life in prison. But you and Strange Sox disagree. What's the sentence for someone who they can't prove is a fascist? 

I agree with you that it shouldn't matter. You have no arguments with me there. 

I cannot speak for StrangeSox, but I think that this is NOT the time to be both sides-ing things. 

My problem isn't that you think that the law should be non-discriminatory. It's more about the both sides-ing rhetoric, while not acknowledging that the fascists are the problem right now. 

You're giving off the vibe that you're at least slightly sympathetic to them right now. I do not think that you are, but that's how you're coming across. 

I'd say that about anyone bringing up Left-wing stuff right now. 

The only reason to bring up left wing stuff at this moment is to deflect and minimize the fascist problem in the US. It's whataboutism in its purest form. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Texsox]

Looking at the photos, do you believe these idiots actually thought they were committing treason? I mean in the same way that Jefferson, Washington, and the rest knew their actions, if unsuccessful, would lead to their deaths. These guys (and I'm only seeing guys) all look like they are on some reality show. Waving to cameras, taking selfies, playing dress up. Could you imagine any of them drafting a constitution? Inventing a government from scratch? I don't believe most of the guys photographed have enough brains to understand. 

Which leads me to this. Besides Trump, we need to root out the rest of the organizations and their leadership. The guys that were smart enough not to get on camera. Not to participate in a riot like this. The people who are motiving this hate and treason. They also need to be in prison for the longest time possible. 

 

[StrangeSox]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

12 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I agree with you that it shouldn't matter. You have no arguments with me there. 

I cannot speak for StrangeSox, but I think that this is NOT the time to be both sides-ing things. 

My problem isn't that you think that the law should be non-discriminatory. It's more about the both sides-ing rhetoric, while not acknowledging that the fascists are the problem right now. 

You're giving off the vibe that you're at least slightly sympathetic to them right now. I do not think that you are, but that's how you're coming across. 

I'd say that about anyone bringing up Left-wing stuff right now. 

There is only one side. You committed an act of treason and you go to jail. I have no sympathies for anyone who commits an act of treason. I don't care if they do it because they are fascist or a vegan. It just doesn't matter. Their actions matter. I've been crystal clear I believe. When we start trying to sort these treasonous folks from those other ones we are on a dangerous path. We can't see ideology, I can see acts of treason. 

Fascists are a problem. Communists are a problem (they are hacking our systems daily and the president doesn't care) and you don't think Moscow saw a chance to feed anti American anger against the government? White supremist are a problem. Anti Government types of all stripes are a problem. 

[Jack Parkman]

9 minutes ago, Texsox said:

There is only one side. You committed an act of treason and you go to jail. I have no sympathies for anyone who commits an act of treason. I don't care if they do it because they are fascist or a vegan. It just doesn't matter. Their actions matter. I've been crystal clear I believe. When we start trying to sort these treasonous folks from those other ones we are on a dangerous path. We can't see ideology, I can see acts of treason. 

Nobody disagrees with you, man. 

We're talking about ideology because fascism is a massive threat to national security at the moment. 

I'm a card carrying socialist but I'd condemn anyone trying to overthrow the government in a similar way, even if I agree with their ideology. I want to change the system by legislation and policy, while getting people elected to congress and state legislatures while working within the system as it currently exists. 

I do not support authoritarian regimes, period. 

I believe in democracy as being more important than my economic ideology. 

There are some that believe in capitalism, white supremacy, or both over democracy. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Looking at the photos, do you believe these idiots actually thought they were committing treason? I mean in the same way that Jefferson, Washington, and the rest knew their actions, if unsuccessful, would lead to their deaths. These guys (and I'm only seeing guys) all look like they are on some reality show. Waving to cameras, taking selfies, playing dress up. Could you imagine any of them drafting a constitution? Inventing a government from scratch? I don't believe most of the guys photographed have enough brains to understand. 

Which leads me to this. Besides Trump, we need to root out the rest of the organizations and their leadership. The guys that were smart enough not to get on camera. Not to participate in a riot like this. The people who are motiving this hate and treason. They also need to be in prison for the longest time possible. 

 

Now we're underestimating and looking down on them... which is 50% of the reason they felt an allegiance to Trump's movement in the first place?   Not being respected by the press, coastal elites, politicians, Hollywood, etc.  Silenced by cancel culture and misunderstood/misjudged/painted unfairly with a racist brush.  

It's not like you would find thousands of brilliant thinkers aligned with Hitler, Franco or Mussolini in the 20s and 30s but there were enough to give it growing legitimacy or credibility. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Nobody disagrees with you, man. 

We're talking about ideology because fascism is a massive threat to national security at the moment. 

I'm a card carrying socialist but I'd condemn anyone trying to overthrow the government in a similar way. I want to change the system by legislation and policy, while getting people elected to congress and working within the system as it currently exists. 

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. I believe anyone looking to subvert the government could be at that rally. I believe Moscow aided the protestors and manipulated the participants. I believe any of our other enemies also would have been helpful. Do you think looters all identify with whatever riot is happening or do they see a chance to grab a nice TV? I also believe if the shoe was on the other revolution in a country we were enemies with the CIA would be funding their activities. Basically I see a lot more threats than you do and want all of them addressed not just fascists. 

So if someone was in the capital building and just non violently walking around taking pictures and we can't prove their ideology I believe they should get the harshest sentence available and be rotting in jail next to the most outspoken fascist at the rally. If that someone has you thinking I'm sympathetic to fascists I don't know what to tell you. 

[Texsox]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Now we're underestimating and looking down on them... which is 50% of the reason they felt an allegiance to Trump's movement in the first place?   Not being respected by the press, coastal elites, politicians, Hollywood, etc.  Silenced by cancel culture and misunderstood/misjudged/painted unfairly with a racist brush.  

It's not like you would find thousands of brilliant thinkers aligned with Hitler, Franco or Mussolini in the 20s and 30s but there were enough to give it growing legitimacy or credibility. 

Agreed. And your second part is what I was trying to say. There might not be thousands of brilliant thinkers, but there are some. And I do not believe they were fully represented at the riot or before that at the rally. They will be harder to find. 

[StrangeSox]

Lol

 

 

But also, very real possibility. The whole pustch Wednesday was in large part a "stabbed in the back" narrative aimed at Pence and the other Republicans who didn't go along with the fascist plot.

 

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, Texsox said:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. I believe anyone looking to subvert the government could be at that rally. I believe Moscow aided the protestors and manipulated the participants. I believe any of our other enemies also would have been helpful. Do you think looters all identify with whatever riot is happening or do they see a chance to grab a nice TV? I also believe if the shoe was on the other revolution in a country we were enemies with the CIA would be funding their activities. Basically I see a lot more threats than you do and want all of them addressed not just fascists. 

So if someone was in the capital building and just non violently walking around taking pictures and we can't prove their ideology I believe they should get the harshest sentence available and be rotting in jail next to the most outspoken fascist at the rally. If that someone has you thinking I'm sympathetic to fascists I don't know what to tell you. 

The CIA has a long history of being sympathetic to fascism, as well as overthrowing governments and installing fascist dictators. 

They are at least partially responsible for the Coup that overthrew and murdered Chilean president Salvador Allende in 1973(who was democratically elected) and installing Augusto Pinochet as dictator. Pinochet stayed in power until 1990 and was among the most brutal dictators in modern history. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[CentralChamps21]

Just now, Texsox said:

Agreed. And your second part is what I was trying to say. There might not be thousands of brilliant thinkers, but there are some. And I do not believe they were fully represented at the riot or before that at the rally. They will be harder to find. 

I think the point people are trying to make is that the fascists have set themselves aside by committing treason/sedition, which sets them apart from the acts of violence and terrorism that have been committed by other groups, and that in addition to dealing with the specific crimes committed Wednesday we need to deal with the larger issue that fascists thought it was OK to storm the Capitol in a way that no other group has dared even consider.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

I think the point people are trying to make is that the fascists have set themselves aside by committing treason/sedition, which sets them apart from the acts of violence and terrorism that have been committed by other groups, and that in addition to dealing with the specific crimes committed Wednesday we need to deal with the larger issue that fascists thought it was OK to storm the Capitol in a way that no other group has dared even consider.

Thank you. Couldn't have said it better. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

If anything goes wrong Sunday around the country, there better not to be any more excuses about not being prepared... especially with the inauguration three days later.   Thankfully, the midweek nature of the event makes it more inaccessible to the general public. 

[Texsox]

1 minute ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

I think the point people are trying to make is that the fascists have set themselves aside by committing treason/sedition, which sets them apart from the acts of violence and terrorism that have been committed by other groups, and that in addition to dealing with the specific crimes committed Wednesday we need to deal with the larger issue that fascists thought it was OK to storm the Capitol in a way that no other group has dared even consider.

Agreed. So do you do that by offering lesser sentences to the non fascists so it looks like fascists received a harsher sentence? That's what sparked this. I don't care about ideology when it comes to punishing people for treason. You go with the harshest sentence available regardless of why they did it. I can't believe people disagree with this. 

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Agreed. So do you do that by offering lesser sentences to the non fascists so it looks like fascists received a harsher sentence? That's what sparked this. I don't care about ideology when it comes to punishing people for treason. You go with the harshest sentence available regardless of why they did it. I can't believe people disagree with this. 

Nobody disagrees with that...... 

What you're saying comes across as a mild defense of fascism, and an inauthentic condemnation of the events at the Capitol Wednesday. 

I do not believe this is what you're trying to do, but this is how you're coming across. 

 

This is not about left wing extremism. Not one bit. I do not understand why you do not understand that. 

When it comes to the enemy of my enemy is my friend, for left wingers the ultimate enemy is fascism. They're overwhelmingly more likely to side with the federal government, which is more neutral, than racist fascists. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Texsox]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If anything goes wrong Sunday around the country, there better not to be any more excuses about not being prepared... especially with the inauguration three days later.   Thankfully, the midweek nature of the event makes it more inaccessible to the general public. 

I'm hearing Lee Elia right now. The riot was midweek. Now I'm wondering if the DoJ shouldn't announce serious charges on some of the rioters. Perhaps facing a firing squad for treason will chill some of the people. 

[Texsox]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Nobody disagrees with that...... 

We disagree with you using whataboutism. 

I haven't used it. People have misquoted me and taken statements out of context. I mention we have survived violent protests and civil wars as evidence that we will survive this. I mention I'm confident that Americans will rise above this and the next four years will be better, I'm accused of being sympathetic to fascists. I say that anyone who commits' acts of treason should receive the same sentence and I'm using whataboutism. 

When I say these rioters would not have stopped Biden from being president people rush out to create scenarios where they could. I know were better than that. 

Rioters punished. Trump impeached. Cruz and Hawley censored at the minimum and we will survive. 

[caulfield12]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/21/usa.davidpallister

 

There will never be any conclusive way to objectively prove people are fascists OR whatever the opposite of that is...whether you think it's BLM/Antifa or you believe it's a false equivalency.

It's back to the main point, if it can be proven that the leaders in between Trump and the actual protesters (whether state leaders, like the West Virginia state rep who already resigned, Derrick Evans I think was his name)...have communicated in any way to make that crowd of 25,000 believe they could overthrow the election results and/or kidnap/assassinate VP Pence?

We have the those 6-7 senators most directly involved, roughly 130-140 GOP representatives...

The big question is how to separate the real plotters/organizers and those who carried out their wishes and might or likely didn't intend to find themselves in the situations they found themselves which will likely have lifelong career and personal consequences.

 

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I haven't used it. People have misquoted me and taken statements out of context. I mention we have survived violent protests and civil wars as evidence that we will survive this. I mention I'm confident that Americans will rise above this and the next four years will be better, I'm accused of being sympathetic to fascists. I say that anyone who commits' acts of treason should receive the same sentence and I'm using whataboutism. 

When I say these rioters would not have stopped Biden from being president people rush out to create scenarios where they could. I know we're better than that. 

Rioters punished. Trump impeached. Cruz and Hawley censored at the minimum and we will survive. 

The bolded is the fundamental disagreement here. 

No, we're not better than that.

I think we'd all like to think that we are, but if you have an accurate portrayal of the history of the country, I cannot say that I can agree.  

I've seen it since I was a kid. 

70 Million Americans voted for Trump. That's somewhere between 45-48% of the electorate. I do not believe that anyone could vote for Trump in 2020 (i'd be willing to give people the benefit of the doubt in 2016) without being at least mildly sympathetic to fascism. It's a huge problem. 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I'm hearing Lee Elia right now. The riot was midweek. Now I'm wondering if the DoJ shouldn't announce serious charges on some of the rioters. Perhaps facing a firing squad for treason will chill some of the people. 

If we did that, or had a mass public hanging like Abraham Lincoln's plotters...we'd only be making permanently martyrs out of all those people.

A lifetime of obscurity in prison would do the trick.

That said, I think everyone who hasn't seen The Trial of the Chicago 7 yet would have a slightly different viewpoint after watching that film and comparing/contrasting to current events.

Because there was certainly no love lost between those in the park and law enforcement back in 1968.   It was more of a "massacre" like Trump wanted to happen outside of Lafayette Park and in front of the Episcopal church this past summer.

Edited January 11, 2021 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/21/usa.davidpallister

 

There will never be any conclusive way to objectively prove people are fascists OR whatever the opposite of that is...whether you think it's BLM/Antifa or you believe it's a false equivalency.

It's back to the main point, if it can be proven that the leaders in between Trump and the actual protesters (whether state leaders, like the West Virginia state rep who already resigned, Derrick Evans I think was his name)...have communicated in any way to make that crowd of 25,000 believe they could overthrow the election results and/or kidnap/assassinate VP Pence?

We have the those 6-7 senators most directly involved, roughly 130-140 GOP representatives...

The big question is how to separate the real plotters/organizers and those who carried out their wishes and might or likely didn't intend to find themselves in the situations they found themselves which will likely have lifelong career and personal consequences.

 

Which is why I focus on actions. Those actions are dangerous regardless of motive.

If we can dream up scenarios where Biden has the election taken from him, I can't fault Trump supporters from thinking the same. I can fault them for taking matters to the point of treason.

Personally I know how my elected officials voted and Cruz was the only one voting yes, but I was already planning on working for his opponent. My only decision is if I will work for a GOP challenger in the primary if there is one, and I hope there is. I have less enthusiasm for unseating John Cornyn. I can't sustain an effort against every statewide office holder in Texas. Cornyn gets a pass. 

 

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

Which is why I focus on actions. Those actions are dangerous regardless of motive.

If we can dream up scenarios where Biden has the election taken from him, I can't fault Trump supporters from thinking the same. I can fault them for taking matters to the point of treason.

Personally I know how my elected officials voted and Cruz was the only one voting yes, but I was already planning on working for his opponent. My only decision is if I will work for a GOP challenger in the primary if there is one, and I hope there is. I have less enthusiasm for unseating John Cornyn. I can't sustain an effort against every statewide office holder in Texas. Cornyn gets a pass. 

 

Hello, one side plays dirty, and the other side plays by the rules. If you can't discern the difference, I cannot help you. 

[Jose Abreu]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

^^^^^

I cannot believe the number of people that think that basic human rights are a political opinion. It's staggering. 

Not only that, but the number of people who think that this is a political opinion that is just as dangerous as what happened this past week

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Not only that, but the number of people who think that this is a political opinion that is just as dangerous as what happened this past week

Yep. 

Internationally, the US has no moral high ground on human rights abuses anymore, if they ever had it to begin with. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman