2020 Election Thoughts

[ron883]

2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I believe capitalism and true democracy cannot coexist, because extreme income inequality is a feature of capitalism, not a bug. 

I am not a Leninist at all. 

I think Marx failed to take into account human nature and power vacuums. 

I agree with Marx's criticism of capitalism, but I disagree with his solutions. 

I believe in the Nordic model and to make labor and capital into a partnership instead of enemies. 

I do not believe that people should be forced into working in co-ops, but I also do not think that hierarchical organizations should be abolished either. It should be a choice made by each individual worker. Both options should be abundant and available. 

I believe every industry should have a union and collectively bargain. 

I believe in laws that, as a whole slightly favor consumers and labor over business. 

I believe in a strong social safety net and am a proponent of job guarantees rather than UBI. Anyone who wants to work, should be able to. Universal healthcare and generous retirement plans are a must. 

By that same token, any couple who wants one of them to be a full-time parent, should be able to have the breadwinner provide a decent lifestyle. 

I think that 50% of corporate shares should be held by the employees and rank and file employees should be elected to the board as they do for congress. Workers comprise 50% of corporate boards and investors the other 50%. 

I always am and have been a strong proponent of democracy. 

I believe that these things should be achieved through legislation, and free/fair elections within the system as it currently exists rather than via revolution. Revolution creates an unstable power vacuum ripe for exploitation. 

It is up to democratic socialist organizations to win the war of ideas. 

To summarize, I'm on more of the Robert Reich/FDR train of thought rather than more radical ideas. 

Modern democratic socialists are mostly social democrats, like myself. We call ourselves democratic socialists to present ourselves as an alternative to laissez-faire capitalism. 

In short, I want the government the hell out of my house, but up the ass of my workplace. 

Democratic Socialism, to me, is a system where the economy works for everyone instead of a small subset of the population. 

People can still be incredibly successful, but nobody hoards wealth. 

 

How does this work? Do you force the employees to buy shares? 

What makes you trust government with this extraordinary amount of power over businesses?

 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

@caulfield12

have you ever heard of Nick Hanauer/Pitchfork Economics? It's a very good podcast. 

I read that guy on Medium you posted about in the fall with regard to the sociopath issue. I've been saying that for years. We have a society that rewards sociopathic behavior here. 

Not yet, will have to check it out.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/10/politics/doug-jensen-capitol-hill-police-officer/index.html

Of course, THIS idiot had to be from Iowa.  At least he didn't know where the main Senate doors were, thankfully...when he was leading the mob up the stairs after the lone black US Capitol officer (while of course sporting a qAnon shirt.)

According to the FBI and the Polk County Sheriff's Office, Jensen faces five federal charges -- of unlawfully entering the Capitol, disrupting government business, violent entry, parading in a Capitol building and blocking law enforcement during the riot.

 

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, ron883 said:

How does this work? Do you force the employees to buy shares? 

What makes you trust government with this extraordinary amount of power over businesses?

 

That's exactly what they are doing here in China...putting at least one or two Communist Party officials on the boards of major corporations like Alibaba, Ten Cent, Baidu and Huawei.   Well, that works in one sense...showing ultimately who's boss.  On the other hand, it doesn't work very well if your goal is to have the biggest economy in the world by 2028, when you neuter/regulate/control your country's leading companies.

In theory, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau in the US serves a similar purpose, as a cross-check or monitor of corporate activity, although oftentimes it's more symbolic rather than powerful in a practical sense.

Employee-owned, like Hy-Vee Food Stores, tends to work better...but, for massive MNC's, the majority of shareholders at the lower level are only going to comprise something like 5-10% of outstanding shares (while 80% of total owner stakes) simply because the nature of IPO's and the ways in which start-ups are financed/capitalized.

[Jack Parkman]

36 minutes ago, ron883 said:

How does this work? Do you force the employees to buy shares? 

What makes you trust government with this extraordinary amount of power over businesses?

 

It's more of a 401k/bonus thing. It belongs to the company but the company cannot use it for anything other than employee bonuses or retirement contributions. It is also there so that the company cannot make decisions that actively hurt its workers, and that the rank and file have a voice in the direction of the company. It has to go into the pocket of the workers, or the workers can choose to re-invest some of their profits in the company. 

What makes me trust government is that in theory, governments are accountable to the people, while business is accountable to nobody but themselves. 

I trust business substantially less than government. If the government fails to keep business in check then it has abdicated its responsibility. The main economic role of government is to hold business accountable to the citizens of its country. 

Business has repeatedly proven that it cannot be trusted without heavy regulation.

My trust in business ethics is zero. I believe "business ethics" is an oxymoron.  

While Reagan said "government isn't the solution, it is the problem" 

I think that private business isn't the solution, it is the problem. 

When left to their own devices, business will  make decisions that are destructive to society. 

It's up to government to watch them and force them into making decisions that are good for the largest amount of people. 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Soxbadger]

17 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

lol.....more likely Charles Koch. 

Charles Koch has no love for Trump. He congratulated Biden and supported his certification. 

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Charles Koch has no love for Trump. He congratulated Biden and supported his certification. 

Yeah, you're right......at least publicly. I think Charles Koch loves Trump's policies but despises his demeanor. 

But at the same time he said he should have corrupted both parties simultaneously, which is scary as fuck. 

Maybe Sheldon Adelson would have been a better choice. 

George Soros would have nothing to do with what happened Wednesday, if you know anything about him. It's just another right wing conspiracy theory. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

@Texsox

I'd like you to check out this article: 

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/10/955392813/the-lies-we-tell-ourselves-about-race?fbclid=IwAR1uk7wdzNWiaANlW2C-y4lsN_saOQpFp_TWS7nt_4iC9kzGn0C0XgqmQoI

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[pcq]

First Lady Melonia has announced that she is conceding to Dr. Jill and will gladly leave office as soon as possible. 

[Middle Buffalo]

21 minutes ago, pcq said:

First Lady Melonia has announced that she is conceding to Dr. Jill and will gladly leave office as soon as possible. 

Great. With Trump refusing to leave, it will be like an episode of “Wife Swap.” At least Melania will be used to tucking an old man into bed at 7:30.

[hogan873]

Could be a big week.  The House will apparently begin impeachment proceedings today if Trump either doesn't resign or Pence doesn't enact the 25th.  I don't see either happening, so Trump will most likely become the first president to be impeached twice.  I still have my doubts he'll be convicted, but you'd think there would be 18+ republicans who would put the country before Trump.  They really have nothing to lose at this point.

[Kyyle23]

Sometimes I wonder if there will ever be a hot thread in which Jack starts arguing with someone and ends up -Not- revealing his entire world view.

[CentralChamps21]

39 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

Could be a big week.  The House will apparently begin impeachment proceedings today if Trump either doesn't resign or Pence doesn't enact the 25th.  I don't see either happening, so Trump will most likely become the first president to be impeached twice.  I still have my doubts he'll be convicted, but you'd think there would be 18+ republicans who would put the country before Trump.  They really have nothing to lose at this point.

The Senate will avoid taking it up until after inauguration, which will give cover to Republicans who can vote to acquit, thus not angering the Trump base, and then rationalize it by saying he's out of office anyway so it doesn't matter. Romney, Murkowski, and maybe a couple others will vote to convict, but not 17.

[Quin]

1 hour ago, hogan873 said:

Could be a big week.  The House will apparently begin impeachment proceedings today if Trump either doesn't resign or Pence doesn't enact the 25th.  I don't see either happening, so Trump will most likely become the first president to be impeached twice.  I still have my doubts he'll be convicted, but you'd think there would be 18+ republicans who would put the country before Trump.  They really have nothing to lose at this point.

Only needs to be 17 Republicans, as McConnell isn't starting the trial until 1 P.M. on Biden's inauguration day according to a memo floated, so Warnock and Ossoff will likely be seated by the time voting actually starts (which, the Senate majority shifting power in the middle of a trial is weird in it's own right).

The only people I can think of are Romney, Murkowski, Toomey, Sasse, Collins, Grassley, and Burr. My guess is that the rest will take Lindsey Graham's "move forward and unite the country" platform or Hawley/Tuberville/Cruz/etc.'s "Trump did nothing wrong these were proud American's" platform.

[Dick Allen]

18 minutes ago, Quin said:

Only needs to be 17 Republicans, as McConnell isn't starting the trial until 1 P.M. on Biden's inauguration day according to a memo floated, so Warnock and Ossoff will likely be seated by the time voting actually starts (which, the Senate majority shifting power in the middle of a trial is weird in it's own right).

The only people I can think of are Romney, Murkowski, Toomey, Sasse, Collins, Grassley, and Burr. My guess is that the rest will take Lindsey Graham's "move forward and unite the country" platform or Hawley/Tuberville/Cruz/etc.'s "Trump did nothing wrong these were proud American's" platform.

I don't know. Normally, yes. But being on record looking the other way on inciting to insurrection is not exactly resume material. I think this one has a shot. These people have to make a decision. Is a movement where they are marching to the Capital chanting hang Mike Pence a movement you want to empower or kill? The answer is easy.  Obviously, it isn't going to be unanimous , but except for the die hards, this is a possibility.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I don't know. Normally, yes. But being on record looking the other way on inciting to insurrection is not exactly resume material. I think this one has a shot. These people have to make a decision. Is a movement where they are marching to the Capital chanting hang Mike Pence a movement you want to empower or kill? The answer is easy.  Obviously, it isn't going to be unanimous , but except for the die hards, this is a possibility.

Their best chance to find a real connection with Trump issuing some sort of orders on this matter, especially if they can find him ordering the National Guard to stand down.  If not, it will be too easy for the GOP to hide behind Trump's skirts again.

[StrangeSox]

 

[pcq]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

Only needs to be 17 Republicans, as McConnell isn't starting the trial until 1 P.M. on Biden's inauguration day according to a memo floated, so Warnock and Ossoff will likely be seated by the time voting actually starts (which, the Senate majority shifting power in the middle of a trial is weird in it's own right).

The only people I can think of are Romney, Murkowski, Toomey, Sasse, Collins, Grassley, and Burr. My guess is that the rest will take Lindsey Graham's "move forward and unite the country" platform or Hawley/Tuberville/Cruz/etc.'s "Trump did nothing wrong these were proud American's" platform.

Harris' seat might be vacant? Not sure when he is sworn in. Those guys are uniters!

[Kyyle23]

A lot of those insurrectionists are waking up to a new world where they aren't allowed on planes anymore

 

[StrangeSox]

 

 

House brought up this motion, GOP objected, now they're in recess for another 24 hours. Great system we have, works well.

[CentralChamps21]

10 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

A lot of those insurrectionists are waking up to a new world where they aren't allowed on planes anymore

 

This is probably blending over to the COVID thread but you couldn't pay me to fly right now anyway.

Edited January 11, 2021 by WhiteSoxFan1993

[CentralChamps21]

14 hours ago, Texsox said:

70,000,000 Americans voted for the Republican candidate. I have three family members who voted for him. They are all good, decent Americans who support our government and love this country. They are horrified by the fringes of the party and those actions from last week. If those 70,000,000 were truly like the rioters, there would have been blood in the streets everywhere and on a scale unseen since the civil war. We would have had hundreds of thousands dead.

We are better than that. 

I can grant you that a lot of good people voted for Trump, but any Trump voter who is saying that they will never vote for Pence, Sasse, etc., for defying Trump are part of the problem. That's loyalty to a person over a political platform and those people deserve no sympathy.

[StrangeSox]

 

[Jose Abreu]

2 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

 

Well, at least they actually care this time. It's still astounding to me that they were "blindsided" by what happened last week despite how public and well-known the attack was in advance.

[NWINFan]

Several years ago Congressman Steve Scalise (R-LA) was shot in Washington. Though I am a life-long Democrat, I was deeply shocked and disturbed by this. I wrote to his office wishing him a full recovery and told him that I respected him for whatever service he has given to this country. That must have had an effect on him because I get a personal Christmas card from him every year.

I am now going to write him and remind him of the awful violence that happened to him. He needs to take a stand against what happened at the Capitol because he should understand the nature of political violence more than anyone. It will be interesting to see if he answers.

[southsider2k5]