2020 Election Thoughts

[greg775]

4 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

I'm going to respond at my own peril but greg the reality of the matter is, any other president in this particular predicament would have been crushed by a reasonable candidate.  The fact that the corpse of Joe Biden is barely beating DJT at this moment is pretty amazing.  He did nothing but sit around and let Trump sink himself.

How do you explain all Joe's overall vote totals in the popular vote? He got a ton of 'em. Say what you want about Trump, he's got a lot of supporters. His base doesn't care about his insensitive language, etc. And Joe whipped him good, especially in popular vote. Do you disagree with my logical scenario of many years of this combination of Demo candidates/winners? Joe, Kamala, AOC. Lotta years of president to come, via those names right?

Edited November 4, 2020 by greg775

[Soxbadger]

2 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

I'm going to respond at my own peril but greg the reality of the matter is, any other president in this particular predicament would have been crushed by a reasonable candidate.  The fact that the corpse of Joe Biden is barely beating DJT at this moment is pretty amazing.  He did nothing but sit around and let Trump sink himself.

 

I think people are vastly underestimating how much COVID helped Trump in rural areas. Democrats were seen as the ones "shutting down the economy." Trump also got some breaks with major civil unrest in Democrat held cities.

 

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

Maybe some didn't come out for Biden because he doesn't represent that they want? Being "not Trump" isn't enough for all voters. You can't use the Biden/Trump results to argue against progressivism. The idea that progressives will go out in droves to vote for corporate Democrats has never made sense to me

 

Instead of looking at polls, lets look how people voted. 

[Texsox]

Remember we didn't resurrect the Buster. 

[Soxbadger]

Just now, greg775 said:

How do you explain all Joe's overall vote totals in the popular vote? He got a ton of 'em. Say what you want about Trump, he's got a lot of supporters. His base doesn't care about his insensitive language, etc. And Joe whipped him good, especially in popular vote. Do you disagree with my logical scenario of many years of this combination of Demo candidates/winners? Joe, Kamala, AOC. Lotta years of president to come, via those names right?

I think covid helped trump amongst his supporters.

His supporters blamed Democrats for not being able to go to a bar or wear a mask. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

In debates on a national level, we ask candidates every year "how are you going to capture the black vote... the latino vote." That question alone is incredibly disrespectful IMO.

My wife doesn't really do politics, but she watched a debate with me where that was a question and her response was classic:

"I don't even agree with my cousins or mom on what movies to watch, (let alone) abortion and safety nets. They think we just agree on everything?"

Who asks the questions in those debates? Usually, the press. The ones where we get some actual policy questions are town hall meetings. 

I'm all for a better press corps but am open to suggestions for how to get there again. Frankly, every change in my lifetime has been towards less substance - rise of social media, collapse of investigative reporting funds, more corporate ownership. 

[pettie4sox]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

The f***? Like I said, you see the response you get for having policy after policy after policy. That doesn't even make sense, but people somehow believed it. 

That she is wishy washy?  Which of her policies were actually her own and not stolen/modified from BS?

[Jose Abreu]

1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

Instead of looking at polls, lets look how people voted. 

This is my exact point. Biden doesn't represent those polls, so the people didn't even have a chance to vote for that agenda.

[pettie4sox]

2 minutes ago, greg775 said:

How do you explain all Joe's overall vote totals in the popular vote? He got a ton of 'em. Say what you want about Trump, he's got a lot of supporters. His base doesn't care about his insensitive language, etc. And Joe whipped him good, especially in popular vote. Do you disagree with my logical scenario of many years of this combination of Demo candidates/winners? Joe, Kamala, AOC. Lotta years of president to come, via those names right?

Anybody but Trump.  If covid didn't happen, Trump was going to win pretty easily.

[Soxbadger]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

This is my exact point. Biden doesn't represent those polls, so the people didn't even have a chance to vote for that agenda.

Which of those 4 things would you say Trump supports more than Biden? Because each one of them Biden supports to some degree. 

[Dick Allen]

If they stopped counting votes right now like Trump would like, Biden still wins.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

This is my exact point. Biden doesn't represent those polls, so the people didn't even have a chance to vote for that agenda.

Ding ding ding.

Things like health care for all and etc are widely popular. Hell, conservative states are on their way to legalizing weed and Oregon just decriminalized all drugs (great move) and etc and we have Biden not even on board federally. The party is just so far behind what the people want that every election is a pitch of voting for the lesser of two evils.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

If they stopped counting votes right now like Trump would like, Biden still wins.

The funniest part of his stop order to me is this.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

That she is wishy washy?  Which of her policies were actually her own and not stolen/modified from BS?

How is "similar but adapted policies" = "Wishy washy"? 

I mean, I can play the same game with Sanders. Medicare for all has been a Democratic goal for like 65 years, since Medicare became a thing. It was modified from Ted Kennedy I guess. 

But just picking one, Bernie's anti-corruption plan has 5 bullet points. https://berniesanders.com/issues/money-out-of-politics/ Warren's is like 10 pages long, delving into cross-border money flows, international worker standards, etc. https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/international-corruption

[Kyyle23]

7 minutes ago, greg775 said:

How do you explain all Joe's overall vote totals in the popular vote? He got a ton of 'em. Say what you want about Trump, he's got a lot of supporters. His base doesn't care about his insensitive language, etc. And Joe whipped him good, especially in popular vote. Do you disagree with my logical scenario of many years of this combination of Demo candidates/winners? Joe, Kamala, AOC. Lotta years of president to come, via those names right?

Remember last time when You predicted the Clinton and Obama dynasties with certainty

good times

[Soxbadger]

Another big gain for Biden in PA. Roughly 6k for Trump, 36k for Biden. If there are a million votes left at that rate Biden would overtake him. If there are closer to 500k votes it likely goes to Trump. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

How is "similar but adapted policies" = "Wishy washy"? 

I mean, I can play the same game with Sanders. Medicare for all has been a Democratic goal for like 65 years, since Medicare became a thing. It was modified from Ted Kennedy I guess. 

But just picking one, Bernie's anti-corruption plan has 5 bullet points. https://berniesanders.com/issues/money-out-of-politics/ Warren's is like 10 pages long, delving into cross-border money flows, international worker standards, etc. https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/international-corruption

Biden has been very adamant that he was elected because people didn't want progressive policies - he practically shouted it at every debate. I'm here NOT BERNIE!

Democrats conveniently leave out that while Bernie may not have one on his own merits if given the chacne, he also was not given a chance to win fair and square in either year.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Jose Abreu]

Just now, Soxbadger said:

Which of those 4 things would you say Trump supports more than Biden? Because each one of them Biden supports to some degree. 

Not saying that Trump supports any of them more than Biden. Biden obviously isn't looking to overturn Roe or anything like that, but his health care plan and track record with immigration, for instance, are certainly far from what I believe "progressive" policies represent.

My personal opinion is that a candidate running on M4A, GND, and a more progressive immigration policy would have done better in this election than Biden. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that Democrats need to move right to capture Republicans/centrists frustrated with Trump at the expense of strong liberals and leftists. I get that this is an unpopular opinion and I don't expect to convince you of it.

My overall point, however, is that the people have not been given a chance to vote for a progressive agenda on this scale because Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, etc. are not progressive candidates. To use their results as proof that Americans do not support progressive policies is backwards thinking, to me.

[Balta1701]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Democrats conveniently leave out that while Bernie may not have one on his own merits if given the chacne, he also was not given a chance to win fair and square in either year.

How does that describe this year? Too many other people endorsed Biden and therefore Sanders couldn't win? Sanders's campaign explicitly was built to win 30-40% of votes in the Democratic primary, not a majority. He had a full chance, ran a campaign that wasn't built to win a majority, and couldn't win a majority. 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/3/23/1930034/-Sanders-campaign-was-SHOCKED-when-field-narrowed-because-they-really-thought-30-would-win-it

Interestingly, Sanders's weakest spots in both 2016 and 2020, were always with non-white voters, who you are saying that should appeal to the most.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Remember last time when You predicted the Clinton and Obama dynasties with certainty

good times

I think Chelsea should be President now om Greg's time schedule. 

[pettie4sox]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

How is "similar but adapted policies" = "Wishy washy"? 

I mean, I can play the same game with Sanders. Medicare for all has been a Democratic goal for like 65 years, since Medicare became a thing. It was modified from Ted Kennedy I guess. 

But just picking one, Bernie's anti-corruption plan has 5 bullet points. https://berniesanders.com/issues/money-out-of-politics/ Warren's is like 10 pages long, delving into cross-border money flows, international worker standards, etc. https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/international-corruption

Wishy washy just means hasn't really always been for XYZ but now she is because it's the thing to do.  Listen honestly warren would have been a better candidate than Biden but it is what it is.  I probably would have voted for her as I didn't vote for Biden.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

Not saying that Trump supports any of them more than Biden. Biden obviously isn't looking to overturn Roe or anything like that, but his health care plan and track record with immigration, for instance, are certainly far from what I believe "progressive" policies represent.

My personal opinion is that a candidate running on M4A, GND, and a more progressive immigration policy would have done better in this election than Biden. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that Democrats need to move right to capture Republicans/centrists frustrated with Trump at the expense of strong liberals and leftists. I get that this is an unpopular opinion and I don't expect to convince you of it.

My overall point, however, is that the people have not been given a chance to vote for a progressive agenda on this scale because Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, etc. are not progressive candidates. To use their results as proof that Americans do not support progressive policies is backwards thinking, to me.

Then at the very least, you should be able to point to places in the country where at the House of Representatives level, candidates supporting those things won solid victories in competitive districts (not D+20 or something like that, an R+10 or R+5 district). Can you do that? I'll bet you can't. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

How does that describe this year? Too many other people endorsed Biden and therefore Sanders couldn't win? Sanders's campaign explicitly was built to win 30-40% of votes in the Democratic primary, not a majority. He had a full chance, ran a campaign that wasn't built to win a majority, and couldn't win a majority. 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/3/23/1930034/-Sanders-campaign-was-SHOCKED-when-field-narrowed-because-they-really-thought-30-would-win-it

Interestingly, Sanders's weakest spots in both 2016 and 2020, were always with non-white voters, who you are saying that should appeal to the most.

I mean, they all dropped out at a time that could not have been more planned.

And yes, Bernie has issues with minorities at times because he focus on class first. This has led some to even call him racist, which is a media talking point.

I actually think if you uplift class, you would see a dramatic reduction in racism and etc. I think it's a viable plan, but it does not play into the identity politics that has overtaken discord and politics in general in this country.

Social issues typically evolve with political issues.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[pettie4sox]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Then at the very least, you should be able to point to places in the country where at the House of Representatives level, candidates supporting those things won solid victories in competitive districts (not D+20 or something like that, an R+10 or R+5 district). Can you do that? I'll bet you can't. 

To me evidence of this was looking at BS's WV primary vs HRC in 2016.  He overwhelming won the support the rural voters because he actually offered them some substantive policy.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I mean, they all dropped out at a time that could not have been more planned.

And yes, Bernie has issues with minorities at times because he focus on class first. This has led some to even call him racist, which is a media talking point.

I actually think if you uplift class, you would see a dramatic reduction in racism and etc. I think it's a viable plan, but it does not play into the identity politics that has overtaken discord and politics in general in this country.

LOL you mean "once voting started and they lost initial races"?

You're correct. It was planned by the election calendar. Come on, once they start losing races, money dries up, votes go elsewhere, and there's no reason to continue. 

[pettie4sox]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

LOL you mean "once voting started and they lost initial races"?

You're correct. It was planned by the election calendar. Come on, once they start losing races, money dries up, votes go elsewhere, and there's no reason to continue. 

Yeah I'm not even sure you believe this.