MLB 2020-21 off season catch all

[michelangelosmonkey]

7 hours ago, The Beast said:

Fair enough. So, given what you said about Teheran, will Rodon have the better season?

Just asking for those of you defending Rodon if you think Rodon will have a better year than Teheran is all.

Okay, rephrased, who will suck less?

No one is expecting Rodon to be great...hoping, sure.   Rodon was the #3 pick in the draft, he's a lefty and there is organizational familiarity with him.  The organization got him on a one year "prove it" deal for almost nothing and he's going to have the spring and a few starts in April to show his recovered arm and new competitive fire.  The upside on Teheran is an aging, declining right handed innings eater...the upside on Rodon is Mike Minor...even sort of similar story...lefty, 1st round draft picks...3rd and 7th overall pick, both debuted at 22 with some intriguing success...at 26 both lost, basically, two full seasons to injury....when Minor came back at 29 he put up 15 WAR over the next three years.   That's the upside.   It's not ridiculous...lefty starters with Rodon's stuff are worth a gamble. If your argument is we should pick up every aging innings eater that has had some success...there is a limitation on roster spots.  If the argument is pick one...Rodon or Teheran...I'm quite satisfied with that pick.   Yes Teheran could be better than Rodon in 2021...buy he was worse than Reylo last year...why not give that shot to Reylo.

 

[pcq]

James Karinchak hopes to be the CBC late inning leverage guy and closer. He struck out 49% of 103 batters faced last year.  Amed Rosario from the Mets figures to get first look as Lindor's replacement but there is no clear favorite at this point.

[Rounding_Third]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

No one is expecting Rodon to be great...hoping, sure.   Rodon was the #3 pick in the draft, he's a lefty and there is organizational familiarity with him.  The organization got him on a one year "prove it" deal for almost nothing and he's going to have the spring and a few starts in April to show his recovered arm and new competitive fire.  The upside on Teheran is an aging, declining right handed innings eater...the upside on Rodon is Mike Minor...even sort of similar story...lefty, 1st round draft picks...3rd and 7th overall pick, both debuted at 22 with some intriguing success...at 26 both lost, basically, two full seasons to injury....when Minor came back at 29 he put up 15 WAR over the next three years.   That's the upside.   It's not ridiculous...lefty starters with Rodon's stuff are worth a gamble. If your argument is we should pick up every aging innings eater that has had some success...there is a limitation on roster spots.  If the argument is pick one...Rodon or Teheran...I'm quite satisfied with that pick.   Yes Teheran could be better than Rodon in 2021...buy he was worse than Reylo last year...why not give that shot to Reylo.

 

Terheran had Covid last summer.  Through 2019 he's been fantastic!  And only 30.  Why not give him a free tryout is all I'm saying. Considering some of the non roster pitching invitee's, it make no sense to not give him a free look.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Rounding_Third

[michelangelosmonkey]

3 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Terheran had Covid last summer.  Through 2019 he's been fantastic!  And only 30.  Why not give him a free tryout is all I'm saying. Considering some of the non roster pitching invitee's, it make no sense to not give him a free look.

I'd question "fantastic" 2016 and before yes but since then at best he's been an OK innings eating right handed pitcher.  The problem is...we only have so many starting pitcher slots.   We have the three fixtures.  We have Cease at four. We have the Kopeck/Crochet 5th starter combo by mid-May...and we have Rodon and Reylo to fill in until then or to work as spot starters...and young guys like Stiever for later in the season.   I think its fine to say Teheran is the same level of risk as Rodon...but I stated my arguments for Rodon...two years younger, lefty, higher upside.  This is no longer the team where we bring in every one else's garbage to fill up the place. 

 

[pcq]

Not sure if anyone mentioned Juan Pizarro who was called home Thursday. Juan was not only a mainstay of some great Sox pitching staffs of the 1960's but was traded for Wilber Wood in 1966. Pretty significant. 

[Rounding_Third]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'd question "fantastic" 2016 and before yes but since then at best he's been an OK innings eating right handed pitcher.  The problem is...we only have so many starting pitcher slots.   We have the three fixtures.  We have Cease at four. We have the Kopeck/Crochet 5th starter combo by mid-May...and we have Rodon and Reylo to fill in until then or to work as spot starters...and young guys like Stiever for later in the season.   I think its fine to say Teheran is the same level of risk as Rodon...but I stated my arguments for Rodon...two years younger, lefty, higher upside.  This is no longer the team where we bring in every one else's garbage to fill up the place. 

 

Okay 1 mediocre year out of how many?  Yep, "fantasic" was the wrong adj anyway but "very good" fits.  You're still missing my point that its a "free" tryout for Detroit.  If the Sox had done the same, no telling what could have happened.  Rodon is a much higher risk considering he hasn't stayed healthy for 5 years running,  The "if he can stay healthy" hope has drastically faded.  If he gets through ST healthy, it's a huge victory for him at this point.  SP depth is terrible; so thin.  Pinning depth hopes on unproven or proven to be bad or always hurt pitchers is a very weak WS strategy.  Depending on ST results, Teheran could have make the team or minors deal or cut loose at no cost.  

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Okay 1 mediocre year out of how many?  Yep, "fantasic" was the wrong adj anyway but "very good" fits.  You're still missing my point that its a "free" tryout for Detroit.  If the Sox had done the same, no telling what could have happened.  Rodon is a much higher risk considering he hasn't stayed healthy for 5 years running,  The "if he can stay healthy" hope has drastically faded.  If he gets through ST healthy, it's a huge victory for him at this point.  SP depth is terrible; so thin.  Pinning depth hopes on unproven or proven to be bad or always hurt pitchers is a very weak WS strategy.  Depending on ST results, Teheran could have make the team or minors deal or cut loose at no cost.  

He's averaged a 5 FIP, mostly while pitching in the National League, the last four seasons.  If the argument is to get the 2016 version of Teheran...OK.  But I don't think it's really hard to find a guy with a 5 FIP if all of our other options fail.  In fact I'm pretty sure that if the options fail they will trade for a serious pitcher at the trade deadline.  And obviously Rodon is a very high risk...they signed him for nothing after no one wanted him...but I gave you a pitcher with a very similar history and profile to Rodon that went on after losing two full seasons to injury to become a very good pitcher.  I'd challenge you to find someone that fits the 30+ year old righty with 4 years of 5 FIP that goes on to be very good pitcher.       

[South Side Hit Men]

Do all White Sox employees including paid media get bonus checks from Jerry for being complete assholes to the fanbase?

Fan asks a respectful question, enthusiastic about the Rodon hiring, and Steve spews his typical condescending douchebag response.

 

[HOFHurt35]

2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Do all White Sox employees including paid media get bonus checks from Jerry for being complete assholes to the fanbase?

Fan asks a respectful question, enthusiastic about the Rodon hiring, and Steve spews his typical condescending douchebag response.

 

While Steve's response is a bit over the edger here, I think he and many White Sox employees are probably fed up with the negative doom and gloom tone from many Sox fans.

 

[Tony]

1 minute ago, HOFHurt35 said:

While Steve's response is a bit over the edger here, I think he and many White Sox employees are probably fed up with the negative doom and gloom tone from many Sox fans.

 

Yeah, shame on the fans. I mean, the team was established in 1901 and heading into the 2021 season, the franchise has never made the playoffs in back-to-back years.

What a bunch of assholes we are. 

[RagahRagah]

7 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

While Steve's response is a bit over the edger here, I think he and many White Sox employees are probably fed up with the negative doom and gloom tone from many Sox fans.

 

Oh, how sad for them. Maybe they shouldn't work for an owner who won't spend any fucking money on a team that never makes the playoffs, then. GMAFB.

Edited February 21, 2021 by RagahRagah

[michelangelosmonkey]

Just now, Tony said:

Yeah, shame on the fans. I mean, the team was established in 1901 and heading into the 2021 season, the franchise has never made the playoffs in back-to-back years.

What a bunch of assholes we are. 

There's a time to be negative.  The organization has put together a really solid rebuild plan that produced a playoff team last year and then in the off season traded for a CY Young candidate, signed a Cy Young candidate and a solid RF, hired a hall of fame manager, put together a staff of some really bright young baseball minds, are bringing up 3 of the top 50 minor league prospects...and by the looks of twitter or Soxtalk this is the dark ages.   At some point you stop bitching about what was and start getting excited about what is coming (though in fairness Stone's tweet was a bit nasty).  

[RagahRagah]

18 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

There's a time to be negative.  The organization has put together a really solid rebuild plan that produced a playoff team last year and then in the off season traded for a CY Young candidate, signed a Cy Young candidate and a solid RF, hired a hall of fame manager, put together a staff of some really bright young baseball minds, are bringing up 3 of the top 50 minor league prospects...and by the looks of twitter or Soxtalk this is the dark ages.   At some point you stop bitching about what was and start getting excited about what is coming (though in fairness Stone's tweet was a bit nasty).  

Simply stating the good things done does not tell the entire story.

The blanket statements constantly thrown to try to discredit the reasonable skepticism here is irritating. Reminds me of another dumb argument:

"America is a great country overall! Stop complaining! If you don't like things here then go to some other country!"

Asserting that the good things automatically being reason to not be justified in being frustrated about the things that suck always has and always will be a poor argument. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by RagahRagah

[Chicago White Sox]

I’ll keep saying it, but we can all be super excited about the potential of the team while also being frustrated with ownership.  I think this team can legit win the World Series this year and can’t wait to watch things unfold, but ownership has not done us any favors for 2021 and the mix of Jerry’s need for TLR and his general financial risk aversion will likely lead to a shortened window.  Just sucks to finally get to the point where we should have built up enough financially flexibility to stomp on the necks of our divisional rivals and instead went cheap this offseason.

[SonofaRoache]

1 hour ago, HOFHurt35 said:

While Steve's response is a bit over the edger here, I think he and many White Sox employees are probably fed up with the negative doom and gloom tone from many Sox fans.

 

And Sox fans were fed up with the lack of success and limited spending. They earned the anger and have to take it as part of the job. Bears fans are pissed at management, and they've had more success than the Sox in recent years. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’ll keep saying it, but we can all be super excited about the potential of the team while also being frustrated with ownership.  I think this team can legit win the World Series this year and can’t wait to watch things unfold, but ownership has not done us any favors for 2021 and the mix of Jerry’s need for TLR and his general financial risk aversion will likely lead to a shortened window.  Just sucks to finally get to the point where we should have built up enough financially flexibility to stomp on the necks of our divisional rivals and instead went cheap this offseason.

Frustration is premature.   I think it is clear that the White Sox have a plan and its execution has not been flawless...but nearly.  Last year they signed Keuchel and Grandal...and brought up Robert, Madrigal, Foster, Heuer and Crochett...and they went to the playoffs.  This year they got Lynn, Hendricks and Eaton and will bring up Kopech and Vaughn.  And what you and others are angry about...not pushing all the chips in now...I think is an asset...they have kept their power dry.  We have only traded one of our top 30 prospects and really haven't spent much money.  JR, in spite the propaganda, had top five payrolls in the 2000's, 1990's and 1980's WHEN the teams were good.  Why would we believe he won't do it again?   Our tradeable assets aren't worth what they should have been because of COVID...a year ago we thought of the Rutherford, Adolfo and Lugo at least one was going to have a leap forward year...and then there was no season.   Same can be said for all of the top 30...there will be at least ten of them that will be worth much more at the trade deadline than they are right now.   As for the missed opportunities...What happens if Cease is great...and Kopech is great...and we just spent all of our Gio extension money on Bauer...who in my mind has some real questions.  Why sign Springer who you would have to pay the centerfielder premium for...when you want to play him in RF?   Why pay for Brantley or Cruz when Vaughn could be better than either.  Let's watch how the things evolve and then at the trade deadline you can push in the chips when you have a better idea the REAL weaknesses...and if you see none...you extend guys.    

[35thstreetswarm]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Do all White Sox employees including paid media get bonus checks from Jerry for being complete assholes to the fanbase?

Fan asks a respectful question, enthusiastic about the Rodon hiring, and Steve spews his typical condescending douchebag response.

 

It’s beyond bizarre at this point.  Is Stone mentally ill?  He’s not even saving it for negative fans, or even fans who disagree with him.  He just tees off on people indiscriminately like he gets some weird pleasure out of it.  Fine for a troll, but totally out of alignment with his media stature.  I don’t know if I’ve ever had my opinion of anyone lowered so much based on their social media persona.

[Sox80]

3 hours ago, HOFHurt35 said:

While Steve's response is a bit over the edger here, I think he and many White Sox employees are probably fed up with the negative doom and gloom tone from many Sox fans.

 

Nah,  Steve stone is a condescending prick on social media . 

[pcq]

27 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

It’s beyond bizarre at this point.  Is Stone mentally ill?  He’s not even saving it for negative fans, or even fans who disagree with him.  He just tees off on people indiscriminately like he gets some weird pleasure out of it.  Fine for a troll, but totally out of alignment with his media stature.  I don’t know if I’ve ever had my opinion of anyone lowered so much based on their social media persona.

I don't think the Sox normally consult Steve either though he may have the owner's ear. Kenny used to say the fans should buy more tickets. 

[Ducksnort]

43 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

It’s beyond bizarre at this point.  Is Stone mentally ill?  He’s not even saving it for negative fans, or even fans who disagree with him.  He just tees off on people indiscriminately like he gets some weird pleasure out of it.  Fine for a troll, but totally out of alignment with his media stature.  I don’t know if I’ve ever had my opinion of anyone lowered so much based on their social media persona.

Don't read too much into what people say on social media. I know very good genuine people who, if I judged them based on their social media presence, I would have a completely different and negative opinion on who they are as people. 

[35thstreetswarm]

39 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Don't read too much into what people say on social media. I know very good genuine people who, if I judged them based on their social media presence, I would have a completely different and negative opinion on who they are as people. 

Based on his on-air personality he seems reasonable and measured.  Which makes his Twitter schtick all the more strange.

[Tony]

3 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Frustration is premature.   I think it is clear that the White Sox have a plan and its execution has not been flawless...but nearly.  Last year they signed Keuchel and Grandal...and brought up Robert, Madrigal, Foster, Heuer and Crochett...and they went to the playoffs.  This year they got Lynn, Hendricks and Eaton and will bring up Kopech and Vaughn.  And what you and others are angry about...not pushing all the chips in now...I think is an asset...they have kept their power dry.  We have only traded one of our top 30 prospects and really haven't spent much money.  JR, in spite the propaganda, had top five payrolls in the 2000's, 1990's and 1980's WHEN the teams were good.  Why would we believe he won't do it again?   Our tradeable assets aren't worth what they should have been because of COVID...a year ago we thought of the Rutherford, Adolfo and Lugo at least one was going to have a leap forward year...and then there was no season.   Same can be said for all of the top 30...there will be at least ten of them that will be worth much more at the trade deadline than they are right now.   As for the missed opportunities...What happens if Cease is great...and Kopech is great...and we just spent all of our Gio extension money on Bauer...who in my mind has some real questions.  Why sign Springer who you would have to pay the centerfielder premium for...when you want to play him in RF?   Why pay for Brantley or Cruz when Vaughn could be better than either.  Let's watch how the things evolve and then at the trade deadline you can push in the chips when you have a better idea the REAL weaknesses...and if you see none...you extend guys.    

I don't need to be told how to be a fan, but thanks. As others have mentioned, it's possible for multiple things to be true. We can be excited for this season while also frustrated with how the last 5 months have been handled. Additionally, when I hear the Front Office talk about trying to become the 90's Braves with young players continuing to emerge and always being the playoff mix.......I'm sorry that a roll my eyes given the success rate of this current regime. 

[Rounding_Third]

5 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He's averaged a 5 FIP, mostly while pitching in the National League, the last four seasons.  If the argument is to get the 2016 version of Teheran...OK.  But I don't think it's really hard to find a guy with a 5 FIP if all of our other options fail.  In fact I'm pretty sure that if the options fail they will trade for a serious pitcher at the trade deadline.  And obviously Rodon is a very high risk...they signed him for nothing after no one wanted him...but I gave you a pitcher with a very similar history and profile to Rodon that went on after losing two full seasons to injury to become a very good pitcher.  I'd challenge you to find someone that fits the 30+ year old righty with 4 years of 5 FIP that goes on to be very good pitcher.       

So a pitcher who just turned 30 is "aging".  Too funny!!!!   Most people consider that back end prime but whatever!  List all the analytics you want, I have no problem with a pitcher who keeps his era near or under 4 over 175+ innings year after year except the only one he didn't out of last 7 that you've chosen to define him by (ignoring his covid 2020).  Somehow he must have done something right; right up through 2019.  And no, I didn't say Rodon or Teheran, you turned it into that.  I said no reason to not look at Terehan for free. That's zero risk, zero cost.  Basically if sizing up Rodon for $3m why not Teheran for free.  Its a very simple concept, repeat after me, "Free is good".

I agree the Sox plan appears to be a trade, if/when needed.  At least I hope so.  I just hope they're prepared to deal early (May), if needed.  Their immediate depth is a 5 year injury case (Rodon), a 2 year 6ish era (Lopez), and an unproven youngster who got pounded in his limited time (Stiever).  After that its a crapshoot.  The old adage of "you can't win a pennant (playoffs) in April but you could lose one" has never been more in play than with this team right now with its pathetic rotation depth.  More is better, honest!

Edited February 21, 2021 by Rounding_Third

[The Beast]

3 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Frustration is premature.   I think it is clear that the White Sox have a plan and its execution has not been flawless...but nearly.  Last year they signed Keuchel and Grandal...and brought up Robert, Madrigal, Foster, Heuer and Crochett...and they went to the playoffs.  This year they got Lynn, Hendricks and Eaton and will bring up Kopech and Vaughn.  And what you and others are angry about...not pushing all the chips in now...I think is an asset...they have kept their power dry.  We have only traded one of our top 30 prospects and really haven't spent much money.  JR, in spite the propaganda, had top five payrolls in the 2000's, 1990's and 1980's WHEN the teams were good.  Why would we believe he won't do it again?   Our tradeable assets aren't worth what they should have been because of COVID...a year ago we thought of the Rutherford, Adolfo and Lugo at least one was going to have a leap forward year...and then there was no season.   Same can be said for all of the top 30...there will be at least ten of them that will be worth much more at the trade deadline than they are right now.   As for the missed opportunities...What happens if Cease is great...and Kopech is great...and we just spent all of our Gio extension money on Bauer...who in my mind has some real questions.  Why sign Springer who you would have to pay the centerfielder premium for...when you want to play him in RF?   Why pay for Brantley or Cruz when Vaughn could be better than either.  Let's watch how the things evolve and then at the trade deadline you can push in the chips when you have a better idea the REAL weaknesses...and if you see none...you extend guys.    

My fear is that he won’t spend the kind of money needed to go get the guys they need to fill in the gaps or bring the team to the next level. I think some on this site are extremely high on prospects but they can trade some away and get some proven players. I haven’t seen him play and don’t know much about him, but is Vaughn really good? What happens if one of the arms in the rotation goes down? From a depth perspective I wish they would have signed another starter not named Rodon when more were out there and I would have liked a major league hitter come to DH even with what happened with Encarnacion. But we will see what happens and where they could have done better as the season rolls on.

[Jerksticks]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’ll keep saying it, but we can all be super excited about the potential of the team while also being frustrated with ownership.  I think this team can legit win the World Series this year and can’t wait to watch things unfold, but ownership has not done us any favors for 2021 and the mix of Jerry’s need for TLR and his general financial risk aversion will likely lead to a shortened window.  Just sucks to finally get to the point where we should have built up enough financially flexibility to stomp on the necks of our divisional rivals and instead went cheap this offseason.

Knowing Jerry is cheap I totally expected zero spending this offseason due to Covid.  According to spotrac, we’ve spent the 7th most in FA.  
 

One has to wonder how much the Sox were planning to spend this year before Covid hit.  Kinda cool, maybe?