Experience and Managing

[Texsox]

I was thinking outside the box here.

Obviously being a great or even good player isn't necessary to be a great manager. I'm wondering with advanced analytics do you really even need to have played? Couldn't someone with great abilities to relate to players, motivated, and make the sound moves based on science rather than gut and experience do really well as a MLB manager?  Why would you ever need to play MLB or MiLB baseball?

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

I was thinking outside the box here.

Obviously being a great or even good player isn't necessary to be a great manager. I'm wondering with advanced analytics do you really even need to have played? Couldn't someone with great abilities to relate to players, motivated, and make the sound moves based on science rather than gut and experience do really well as a MLB manager?  Why would you ever need to play MLB or MiLB baseball?

 

Are you advocating that Tony Robbins could be a baseball manager ? I think that in order to have "great abilities to relate to players" you need to have an extensive background in baseball .How can you relate to them without having many of the same experiences they have had ?

Statistical information is great and should have a great deal to do with how you make decisions but observations where you apply your baseball wisdom are just as important. With either stats or baseball acumen decisions can go awry since there is never a 100% right choice either way. The only right decision is the one that works which means all managers will be 2nd guessed time after time.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

I was thinking outside the box here.

Obviously being a great or even good player isn't necessary to be a great manager. I'm wondering with advanced analytics do you really even need to have played? Couldn't someone with great abilities to relate to players, motivated, and make the sound moves based on science rather than gut and experience do really well as a MLB manager?  Why would you ever need to play MLB or MiLB baseball?

 

It's time to get back in the box.  

[Leonard Zelig]

No, I get it, like a Stuart Smalley type to get the players to make the best of themselves. 

[mqr]

5 hours ago, Texsox said:

I was thinking outside the box here.

Obviously being a great or even good player isn't necessary to be a great manager. I'm wondering with advanced analytics do you really even need to have played? Couldn't someone with great abilities to relate to players, motivated, and make the sound moves based on science rather than gut and experience do really well as a MLB manager?  Why would you ever need to play MLB or MiLB baseball?

 

To make decisions in a game I absolutely do not think you need to have played. But I would want someone who knows how a professional clubhouse operates. 

[Dominikk85]

 

 

6 hours ago, Texsox said:

I was thinking outside the box here.

Obviously being a great or even good player isn't necessary to be a great manager. I'm wondering with advanced analytics do you really even need to have played? Couldn't someone with great abilities to relate to players, motivated, and make the sound moves based on science rather than gut and experience do really well as a MLB manager?  Why would you ever need to play MLB or MiLB baseball?

 

In theory yes, you could learn that all. However even if two people say exactly the same it is not always perceived the same.

If you are parents of a teenage kid you probably know what I'm talking about:).

So even if the manager does and says the same stuff players might not buy in if he hasn't done it.

That is also an issue those new "data coaches" like Driveline and so on had and sometimes have (maybe that is why lisle failed in chicago), those guys are super smart with biomechanics, saber metrics and so on but players do not always buy in from a guy who has played D3 or not even that.

Of course kyle boddy has overcome that but it took him more than a decade to get Accepted in pro ball.

Now it is possible to earn that trust but the start is tougher and players are more sceptical if you have not played and in many cases you don't get enough time to convince players otherwise.

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, mqr said:

To make decisions in a game I absolutely do not think you need to have played. But I would want someone who knows how a professional clubhouse operates. 

Clubhouses change with each generation of players. 

A modern manager shouldn't tell players what to do or not to do so it seems like the players run the clubhouse. 

[ChiSox1917]

16 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Clubhouses change with each generation of players. 

A modern manager shouldn't tell players what to do or not to do so it seems like the players run the clubhouse. 

What?

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Non baseball people making baseball decisions is what got MLB in the god awful mess it's in today.  

[Texsox]

52 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

What?

What clubhouse rules could a manager get away with today?

You can't stop any protests. You can't stop relationships. Basically a manager needs to stay away from anything that isn't on the field during gametime. 

[Texsox]

1 minute ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Non baseball people making baseball decisions is what got MLB in the god awful mess it's in today.  

What decision has a manager made that created a mess? 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

Clubhouses change with each generation of players. 

A modern manager shouldn't tell players what to do or not to do so it seems like the players run the clubhouse. 

Yes, modern day managers are there to write out a lineup card, make pitching changes, and adhere to front office dictates on player utilization. They are not the player's father, or in Tony's case great great grandfather. They are not there to dictate how a player should "speak" or "think" outside of conveying baseball fundamentals / strategy. It's not the manager's role to determine whether a player is "sincere" in their personal believes, or to assess or grant a player "permission" to live as an adult based on Tony's whims, beliefs, or experiences during his 20s in the Jim Crow South. The days of Massa Tony dictating what players can say, think, or believe, and what they can do outside of actual game performance are long gone.

It's been a very very very long time away from experiencing the day to day of a clubhouse. Based on the press conference answers given, it doesn't appear this reality has sunk into Tony's head yet, but brain synapses slow when one reaches this stage of atrophy. However, that mindset must change by Spring Training, or you can start printing "Tony's Boys Done Quit" tee-shirts to reflect the toxicity of imposing "old school" mentality to "fix" a player, a slump, or a ball club.

Lot's of inane comments in game threads imploring Ricky to "yell and scream" at players, or have then run laps until they drop. A select few here may want that, but it isn't happening or you may see Tony shit-canned a second time mid-season. 

Edited November 1, 2020 by South Side Hit Men

[Texsox]

28 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Yes, modern day managers are there to write out a lineup card, make pitching changes, and adhere to front office dictates on player utilization. They are not the player's father, or in Tony's case great great grandfather. They are not there to dictate how a player should "speak" or "think" outside of conveying baseball fundamentals / strategy. It's not the manager's role to determine whether a player is "sincere" in their personal believes, or to assess or grant a player "permission" to live as an adult based on Tony's whims, beliefs, or experiences during his 20s in the Jim Crow South. The days of Massa Tony dictating what players can say, think, or believe, and what they can do outside of actual game performance are long gone.

It's been a very very very long time away from experiencing the day to day of a clubhouse. Based on the press conference answers given, it doesn't appear this reality has sunk into Tony's head yet, but brain synapses slow when one reaches this stage of atrophy. However, that mindset must change by Spring Training, or you can start printing "Tony's Boys Done Quit" tee-shirts to reflect the toxicity of imposing "old school" mentality to "fix" a player, a slump, or a ball club.

Lot's of inane comments in game threads imploring Ricky to "yell and scream" at players, or have then run laps until they drop. A select few here may want that, but it isn't happening or you may see Tony shit-canned a second time mid-season. 

Exactly. I think a guy that spends fifteen years studying the science of the game behind a computer could be better than a guy who spent those fifteen years playing a single position. 

[Texsox]

Our biggest and most successful corporations today were started by people from outside the industry they disrupted. Why not baseball? The skill set to be a manager is different than being a player. Almost all the top managers in every sport were benchwarmers studying the game. Why not study the game remotely? 

We already have front office personnel who didn't play the game. 

[ChiSox1917]

6 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Yes, modern day managers are there to write out a lineup card, make pitching changes, and adhere to front office dictates on player utilization. They are not the player's father, or in Tony's case great great grandfather. They are not there to dictate how a player should "speak" or "think" outside of conveying baseball fundamentals / strategy. It's not the manager's role to determine whether a player is "sincere" in their personal believes, or to assess or grant a player "permission" to live as an adult based on Tony's whims, beliefs, or experiences during his 20s in the Jim Crow South. The days of Massa Tony dictating what players can say, think, or believe, and what they can do outside of actual game performance are long gone.

It's been a very very very long time away from experiencing the day to day of a clubhouse. Based on the press conference answers given, it doesn't appear this reality has sunk into Tony's head yet, but brain synapses slow when one reaches this stage of atrophy. However, that mindset must change by Spring Training, or you can start printing "Tony's Boys Done Quit" tee-shirts to reflect the toxicity of imposing "old school" mentality to "fix" a player, a slump, or a ball club.

Lot's of inane comments in game threads imploring Ricky to "yell and scream" at players, or have then run laps until they drop. A select few here may want that, but it isn't happening or you may see Tony shit-canned a second time mid-season. 

The veiled racism and ageism in this post is pretty gross.

the insinuation that TLR is racist and influenced by “the jim crow south” is at best ignorant of a guy who grew up in ybor of all places.  The claim that hes mentally failing is absurd and is only being parroted by losers like you looking for excuses to be against the hire. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by ChiSox1917

[South Side Hit Men]

On 10/30/2020 at 7:42 PM, ChiSox1917 said:

Have Moncada and Eloy shown a hard work ethic at this point?  I haven't seen it.  I like Eloy but he has made zero improvement defensively.  Moncada is harder to tell.  It very well may be the case that he was really plagued this year by Covid fatigue, but he also has reports out about him eating 50 twinkies a week and concerns he can't play through minor bumps and bruises.  

I love Abreu, and he's shown a ton of personal work ethic (also Anderson).  But I don't believe that it has necessarily inspired others.  Not to mention that work ethic and personal improvement aren't all there is to it.  Some of these guys need to be called out for loafing, and making mental errors in game.  We had an insanely talented team last year (on the offensive end), but there was still a lot of sloppy play.  TLR's teams don't play sloppy baseball.  

 

5 hours ago, ChiSox1917 said:

The veiled racism and ageism in this post is pretty gross.

the insinuation that TLR is racist and influenced by “the jim crow south” is at best ignorant of a guy who grew up in ybor of all places.  The claim that hes mentally failing is absurd and is only being parroted by losers like you looking for excuses to be against the hire. 

This coming from someone with an ignorant political signature (I thought no politics were allowed on the board). An ignorant poster who states Moncada stuffs his face with 50 twinkies a week (a story from 2015, not a God Damned thing he is doing today) or "can't play through minor bumps and bruises", when it was obvious to anyone with a brain Moncada played the entire season in severe pain and health limitations including the ability to breathe due to COVID symptoms. You're the same Karen who wet their bed the entire season in game threads, posting endless ignorant comments regarding yelling at players as the correct way to manage. 

I'm linking this video specifically for you, so that you understand why all of MLB, including White Sox staff, the entire media not paid by JR, and baseball fans on this board and throughout the city are critical of this reprehensible hire. Listen and observe the pain in Kenny Williams's voice throughout the interview. For those who don't have 34 minutes, click the 10:50 mark to address criticism Kenny received from his white friend, perhaps his friend is Karen LaRussa, regarding Colin Kapernick, with the same ignorant opinions Tony LaRussa spewed 4 years ago, and again during Black History Month this year. 
 

"The same person who asked that question about what it is like to be Black, that same person I said two years ago. When Colin Kaepernick took a peaceful knee, not protesting our military, as it was portrayed, just some of the things you are seeing now. Police injustice and brutality. And I said "Listen, whether you agree or not, be careful. Because no group in the HISTORY OF MAN has ever been oppressed to the degree they felt like; are discriminated against. To the degree they felt like they had to take the initiative to protest in the first place, and to get it out there, and make their cases heard." No one group has ever reacted well to being told when, where and how to protest. You do that, it's a recipe for disaster."

And now Kenny Williams has this reprobate worming his way back to the organization.  Jerry has had to find employment for Tony as though he was a child his entire life, passing him off to Oakland before shit-canning his ass in the 1980s, and placing him with Jerry's owner friend in Arizona when Tony was too old to manage a decade ago.

Crony LaRussa fit NONE of Rick Hahn's well thought out criteria for the next manager. No recent experience, not a modern manager familiar with analytics. Crony LaRussa's idea of "analytics" is hiring his Veterinarian pal of 35 years with no mathematical or analytical background as director of baseball analytics and research. Because Tony LaRussa and his pal have been the beneficiary of cronyism and privilege their entire life. They know no other way, and worse they are unsympathetic to those who have not been handed the same privilege in life, even though they are far more qualified. No other team in MLB was ever interested in Tony LaRussa managing over the past decade. There is only one team and only one reason he was handed the job on a platter, without any legitimate interview process. That is how cronyism works, the hallmark of a Jerry Reinsdorf organization. it's sad that a team which should be climbing the mountain of success is now divisive and backtracking due to self-inflicted wounds. Sad, pathetic, and par for the course.

PS - Plays don't get more sloppy than this, thank you Tony for your well oiled machine. Tony was totally outclassed by Baltimore's rookie manager, and it went all downhill after that until Tony was ushered out and people were hired to clean up Reinsdorf's original mess.

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by South Side Hit Men

[bmags]

21 hours ago, Texsox said:

I was thinking outside the box here.

Obviously being a great or even good player isn't necessary to be a great manager. I'm wondering with advanced analytics do you really even need to have played? Couldn't someone with great abilities to relate to players, motivated, and make the sound moves based on science rather than gut and experience do really well as a MLB manager?  Why would you ever need to play MLB or MiLB baseball?

 

Watches Ted lasso once

[Dominikk85]

13 hours ago, Texsox said:

Our biggest and most successful corporations today were started by people from outside the industry they disrupted. Why not baseball? The skill set to be a manager is different than being a player. Almost all the top managers in every sport were benchwarmers studying the game. Why not study the game remotely? 

We already have front office personnel who didn't play the game. 

Because buy in is related to who says it. If you are an IT programmer would you listen to programming advice from a french teacher? 

Likewise many hitters wouldn't take hitting advice from a guy who played D3 even if what the guy says is correct.

That is why teams now are looking for translators who speak both languages and who convey the info of the analytics guys to players in a way they understand and buy in to.

I also disagree that managers in these days don't need to be an authority anymore. Many managers these days are more "players managers" and you certainly can be as authorative as 30 years ago but there are still rules that sometimes need to be enforced.

You don't tell players to not wear a mustache anymore but there are still scenarios that require intervention (like a player constantly jogging to first base or disregarding sings, clubhouse arguments between players, players showing up late, players throwing teammates under the bus publicly...) And if you are too much of a players friend in those situations it can cause serious issues too as does being too authorative can too. 

 

It is a fine line these days, you need to relate to players and their individual needs and you need to be more careful with criticism but if you are too laissez faire then you can lose to clubhouse too because everyone does what he wants disregarding the team.

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Dominikk85

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

Watches Ted lasso once

Lol. 

Here's a resume for a guy who could make the jump in five or ten years.

They gets hired out of college for their statistics and analytical skills. They work the front office ten years, comes out to spring training to link what they are seeing in their reports to what's happening on the field. Some of the players really get into the data and get to know them and see how it's helping their performance on the field. 

Maybe he becomes a bench coach to gain some clubhouse experience.

 

[Texsox]

28 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

Because buy in is related to who says it. If you are an IT programmer would you listen to programming advice from a french teacher? 

Likewise many hitters wouldn't take hitting advice from a guy who played D3 even if what the guy says is correct.

That is why teams now are looking for translators who speak both languages and who convey the info of the analytics guys to players in a way they understand and buy in to.

I also disagree that managers in these days don't need to be an authority anymore. Many managers these days are more "players managers" and you certainly can be as authorative as 30 years ago but there are still rules that sometimes need to be enforced.

You don't tell players to not wear a mustache anymore but there are still scenarios that require intervention (like a player constantly jogging to first base or disregarding sings, clubhouse arguments between players, players showing up late, players throwing teammates under the bus publicly...) And if you are too much of a players friend in those situations it can cause serious issues too as does being too authorative can too. 

 

It is a fine line these days, you need to relate to players and their individual needs and you need to be more careful with criticism but if you are too laissez faire then you can lose to clubhouse too because everyone does what he wants disregarding the team.

 

I don't think you have to have played to mediate an argument between players. There are plenty of sports psychologists and trainers these guys go to and respect who never played the game. As a pitcher would you listen to a guy who was 1-6 with a 5.27 ERA? That's Cooper's stat line. How about amanager that is actually better than the player at something? Analysis and adjustments.

We have a manager coming in with three world series rings and a bust in Cooperstown that none of us thinks will be respected by this generation of players. 

Already our best players are so far ahead of the skill set of their coaches. If having done it was that big of a deal start players would do better at managing.

Come up through the organization. Be a bench coach that works with players on their approach. Show them the data and eventually manage the team. 

[Dominikk85]

There is also the issue that it could go wrong due to other reasons and still the GM gets blamed.

Theo epstein said 15 years ago that having a fixed closer rather than a bullpen ace sucks sabermetrically but that managers,fans,media and players revolt every time that inferior closer blows a game (even though he might have blown it already in the 7th with a traditional closer).

Now 15 years later almost all data people agree your best reliever shouldn't close but still only a handful flexible pen aces (like hader or miller a couple years ago) are used.

The same happens with that new manager, even if he does anything  right and fails due to bad luck the media and fans will go crazy, players might revolt and the GM could get fired.

This is also why those things are always tested in small markets, if you do that in NY or boston and fail you get chased out of town.

[ChiSox1917]

On 11/2/2020 at 6:17 AM, South Side Hit Men said:

 

This coming from someone with an ignorant political signature (I thought no politics were allowed on the board). An ignorant poster who states Moncada stuffs his face with 50 twinkies a week (a story from 2015, not a God Damned thing he is doing today) or "can't play through minor bumps and bruises", when it was obvious to anyone with a brain Moncada played the entire season in severe pain and health limitations including the ability to breathe due to COVID symptoms. You're the same Karen who wet their bed the entire season in game threads, posting endless ignorant comments regarding yelling at players as the correct way to manage. 

I'm linking this video specifically for you, so that you understand why all of MLB, including White Sox staff, the entire media not paid by JR, and baseball fans on this board and throughout the city are critical of this reprehensible hire. Listen and observe the pain in Kenny Williams's voice throughout the interview. For those who don't have 34 minutes, click the 10:50 mark to address criticism Kenny received from his white friend, perhaps his friend is Karen LaRussa, regarding Colin Kapernick, with the same ignorant opinions Tony LaRussa spewed 4 years ago, and again during Black History Month this year. 
 

"The same person who asked that question about what it is like to be Black, that same person I said two years ago. When Colin Kaepernick took a peaceful knee, not protesting our military, as it was portrayed, just some of the things you are seeing now. Police injustice and brutality. And I said "Listen, whether you agree or not, be careful. Because no group in the HISTORY OF MAN has ever been oppressed to the degree they felt like; are discriminated against. To the degree they felt like they had to take the initiative to protest in the first place, and to get it out there, and make their cases heard." No one group has ever reacted well to being told when, where and how to protest. You do that, it's a recipe for disaster."

And now Kenny Williams has this reprobate worming his way back to the organization.  Jerry has had to find employment for Tony as though he was a child his entire life, passing him off to Oakland before shit-canning his ass in the 1980s, and placing him with Jerry's owner friend in Arizona when Tony was too old to manage a decade ago.

Crony LaRussa fit NONE of Rick Hahn's well thought out criteria for the next manager. No recent experience, not a modern manager familiar with analytics. Crony LaRussa's idea of "analytics" is hiring his Veterinarian pal of 35 years with no mathematical or analytical background as director of baseball analytics and research. Because Tony LaRussa and his pal have been the beneficiary of cronyism and privilege their entire life. They know no other way, and worse they are unsympathetic to those who have not been handed the same privilege in life, even though they are far more qualified. No other team in MLB was ever interested in Tony LaRussa managing over the past decade. There is only one team and only one reason he was handed the job on a platter, without any legitimate interview process. That is how cronyism works, the hallmark of a Jerry Reinsdorf organization. it's sad that a team which should be climbing the mountain of success is now divisive and backtracking due to self-inflicted wounds. Sad, pathetic, and par for the course.

PS - Plays don't get more sloppy than this, thank you Tony for your well oiled machine. Tony was totally outclassed by Baltimore's rookie manager, and it went all downhill after that until Tony was ushered out and people were hired to clean up Reinsdorf's original mess.

 

Tldr

[Texsox]

On 11/3/2020 at 11:12 PM, ChiSox1917 said:

Tldr

Exactly. None of Tony's playing experience helped. It's just not necessary.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 hours ago, Texsox said:

Exactly. None of Tony's playing experience helped. It's just not necessary.

I'm not sure LaRussa would agree that none of his playing experience helped. You learn the game through playing the game . Even at the lowest levels by little league coaches you learn the value of doing things the proper way, baseball terminology , team work, fundamentals. Every year you play, study or coach you refine your process and approach as a player or a teacher of the game.

Of course someone can learn these things . There are plenty of baseball fans with great knowledge of the game who might not have played a single inning in organized baseball. I never did . I played in the concrete jungle of the inner city using street corner sewers covers as bases , asphalt playgrounds as playing fields and stone drawn strike zones on building walls , never using a hardball with seams except to play catch or hit in a park every so often.  I grew up loving baseball but l never really played it. Your early years doing something are probably the most formative. The best teacher is actually doing it. No amount of study can replace that.

 

 

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'm not sure LaRussa would agree that none of his playing experience helped. You learn the game through playing the game . Even at the lowest levels by little league coaches you learn the value of doing things the proper way, baseball terminology , team work, fundamentals. Every year you play, study or coach you refine your process and approach as a player or a teacher of the game.

Of course someone can learn these things . There are plenty of baseball fans with great knowledge of the game who might not have played a single inning in organized baseball. I never did . I played in the concrete jungle of the inner city using street corner sewers covers as bases , asphalt playgrounds as playing fields and stone drawn strike zones on building walls , never using a hardball with seams except to play catch or hit in a park every so often.  I grew up loving baseball but l never really played it. Your early years doing something are probably the most formative. The best teacher is actually doing it. No amount of study can replace that.

The top current front office leaders have zero baseball playing experience. Andrew Friedman and Matthew Silverman have no baseball experience, yet both lead the lowest payroll team to continued success, the former to continued annual excellence with the high payroll Dodgers.  Fans of Rick Hahn will note he also had no professional baseball experience. Would say playing experience would help a manager empathize with what a player is experience, but it's apparent Tony LaRussa does not empathize with any players unless they obey and adhere to his viewpoint and dictates. I didn't hear him acknowledge HOF players like Ozzie Smith, or excellent players like Ron Gant, when he referenced "black people I managed" during his pathetic hiring press conference.

Successful modern day managers are able to navigate the dictates / directives of the Front Office, while accommodating the personal and professional needs of players. I like Rick Renteria, didn't always agree with his decisions, but also was aware some of his decisions, but despite Steve Stone's pithy tweets, these decisions were not Rick Renteria's alone, and in some vital instances may not have been his at all. Those that worked Renteria did not get credit for, those that didn't the Chicago media and most posters here assigned 100% blame to Rick Renteria.

Rick Renteria lead his team to the Chicago White Sox' best season in fifteen years, despite the fact he didn't have the experienced deep Starting Pitching staff Ozzie was fortunate to manage in 2005. Rick Renteria brought the White Sox to a playoff appearance, the extent Tony LaRussa did during his much longer tenure with the team. Ozzie didn't advance ever beyond the single season, yet people think he was/is a great manager.

My post has exceeded the length for those who cannot or refuse to read more than 10 words per week by three paragraphs, unless they support pre-existing beliefs, but it is accurate.

Edited November 5, 2020 by South Side Hit Men