maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: The thing with Cease is that we've seen really, really good breaking stuff in spring/exhibition/minor league games that we haven't seen in the big leagues. Because he relies too much on his fastball to blow away batters. He needs to develop a cutter or maybe a 91-93 mph 2 seam fastball or something. Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Rockies want nothing to do with Cease or Kopech. They are flyball pitchers. If I'm Rockies, it starts with Vaughn. Besides, they'd probably have to get rid of Arenado and Story before they trade Marquez. Because if they can't trade those two then there is no point in blowing it up yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, maloney.adam said: Because he relies too much on his fastball to blow away batters. He needs to develop a cutter or maybe a 91-93 mph 2 seam fastball or something. I mean we basically didn't see his curveball at all this year. That says something about how he's being coached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: I mean we basically didn't see his curveball at all this year. That says something about how he's being coached. No I agree, I think the pitching coach would make a difference but I would still dangle him in a trade if it means we’re getting someone back that will help us win championships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 hour ago, SoxBlanco said: Agreed. I think I would give up Kopech and Cease for Marquez., but I could be convinced otherwise. I really don’t want to give up on both Cease & Kopech though. I know most here are really down on Dylan but I think he could be a pitching coach away from taking that next step. I’d much rather do Kopech + Madrigal and hold onto to both Cease & Vaughn if at all possible. No idea how the Rockies would view Nick though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Marquez away from Coors the last 3 years is anywhere from an ace to a low end #2 starter. I think he fits in perfectly as a legit #2 this team needs. That said, I'm not trading Cease since he's value is down and we'd be selling low on him. I would look at a package of Kopech, Madrigal, Collins, and Lambert/Sheets for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 I've said this before in Offseason Targets thread but WS don't get Marquez for a Cease headlined package. Nor do we get Marquez for a Vaughn led package (Rox not likely to be interested in Vaughn given minor league depth at 1B). If you want to keep the players who this board is emotionally attached to out of any potential deal, Marquez is likely out of reach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) It’s funny last year most we’re saying, oh Kopech is going to be a future star but now all of a sudden you want to trade him. Is it because he opted out of this year and the perception is he will turn out to be a bust? Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, maloney.adam said: No I agree, I think the pitching coach would make a difference but I would still dangle him in a trade if it means we’re getting someone back that will help us win championships. I mean this is the problem I have with basically all of the trade concepts - even if you're getting back the better player right now, you are almost certainly weakening the roster as soon as 2 years down the road because you're giving up way more years of control, so if you're saying "win championships" plural...well...then you're IMO better off hoarding your youth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: Yup, specifically paying a high price in a trade for a financially cheap but effective pitcher because they don't really have the money to fill that role through FA and know they have to fill it. If the plan is to add both Springer + Marquez that narrative goes down the drain though. Not suggesting that will happen, but much more open to this kind of trade if it’s supplementing free agent spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 minute ago, maloney.adam said: It’s funny that last year we were saying that Kopech is going to a future star but now all of a sudden we are talking about trading him. What gives? Because he opted out of this year and the perception is he will turn out to be a bust? It's not as much about Kopech losing value as much as acquiring someone like Marquez requires top prospects. Would you prefer trading Vaughn or Kopech? For me that's an easy answer. Kopech would have not pitching in a professional game for 2 1/2 years come opening day '21, and he's someone who's going to take a while to get his groove back. Marquez helps this team compete next year, Kopech doesn't. If we could land Bauer in FA, I'm all for it, but otherwise this would be the next best option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Quin said: I think White Sox Dave has the best outline: Two big pieces + decent third piece + flyer Dave's deal is: Kopech, Cease/Madrigal, Adolfo, Filler Boy...this could really come back and bite us in the ass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, poppysox said: Boy...this could really come back and bite us in the ass. Not in this window it won’t and even if it does, gotta win now with the core locked up Edited November 9, 2020 by Orlando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: It's not as much about Kopech losing value as much as acquiring someone like Marquez requires top prospects. Would you prefer trading Vaughn or Kopech? For me that's an easy answer. Kopech would have not pitching in a professional game for 2 1/2 years come opening day '21, and he's someone who's going to take a while to get his groove back. Marquez helps this team compete next year, Kopech doesn't. If we could land Bauer in FA, I'm all for it, but otherwise this would be the next best option. Yeah but you slot Kopech or Dunning in the 5th spot and your fine. Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Orlando said: Not in this window it won’t and even if it does, gotta win now with the core locked up What do you consider this window? Because if you're giving up Kopech, Madrigal, Cease - you have guys who could be both extremely cheap and moderately effective in 2022-2023, which could really help this window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Just now, maloney.adam said: Yeah but you slot him or Dunning in the 5th spot and your fine. Who would be your #3/4? I think Marquez is the best starter available (trade or FA) after Bauer, and he's a proven commodity relative to MK. And to be clear, I'm only for trading for Marquez if we sign Springer, and have to find a cost controlled quality SP. Otherwise throw money at Stroman, Kluber/Q. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Quin said: I think White Sox Dave has the best outline: Two big pieces + decent third piece + flyer Dave's deal is: Kopech, Cease/Madrigal, Adolfo, Filler I doubt the above gets it done but before I offered such a rich package, I'd talk to Theo about Darvish. Cubs might need to shed payroll and in my opinion, Darvish is a better fit who might be had for Kopech or Cease plus filler (even less if Cubs took on Kimbrel). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: What do you consider this window? Because if you're giving up Kopech, Madrigal, Cease - you have guys who could be both extremely cheap and moderately effective in 2022-2023, which could really help this window. If was a betting man (and I hope I’m wrong), Kopech won’t be good or at potential until 23 and cease might never be good. Marquez is good right now. Let them develop somewhere else, I’ll take the sure thing. Especially since the sure thing is signed long term and cheap. I feel like this trade can’t really bite you because I doubt Cease and Kopech both go off and find immediate success while Marquez falls apart. Edited November 9, 2020 by Orlando 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Orlando said: If was a betting man (and I hope I’m wrong), Kopech won’t be good or at potential until 23 and cease might never be good. Marquez is good right now. Let them develop somewhere else, I’ll take the sure thing. Especially since the sure thing is signed long term and cheap. I'd trade Kopech for Marquez begrudgingly, but not Darvish. Kopech and Marquez are about the same age. Marquez is proven and Kopech isn't. Edited November 9, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 18 minutes ago, maloney.adam said: It’s funny last year most we’re saying, oh Kopech is going to be a future star but now all of a sudden you want to trade him. Is it because he opted out of this year and the perception is he will turn out to be a bust? It's beacuse I need someone I can pencil in for 180 good innings and I needed it yesterday. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Orlando said: If was a betting man (and I hope I’m wrong), Kopech won’t be good or at potential until 23 and cease might never be good. Marquez is good right now. Let them develop somewhere else, I’ll take the sure thing. Especially since the sure thing is signed long term and cheap. And I'm the opposite, I feel like we've seen an enormous amount of long-term damage done when we've made bets like that, and we've seen other teams repeatedly do a lot of damage to themselves with similar moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: Who would be your #3/4? I think Marquez is the best starter available (trade or FA) after Bauer, and he's a proven commodity relative to MK. And to be clear, I'm only for trading for Marquez if we sign Springer, and have to find a cost controlled quality SP. Otherwise throw money at Stroman, Kluber/Q. Scroll up and see my post from an hour ago. For #3 either Marquez, Lynn or Darvish. For #4 either Quintana, or Kluber. Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, mqr said: It's beacuse I need someone I can pencil in for 180 good innings and I needed it yesterday. Yeah but Cease hasn’t been all that great either. He’s pitched more innings but nothing spectacular yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Just now, maloney.adam said: Yeah but Cease hasn’t been all that great either. He’s pitched more innings but nothing spectacular yet. They can trade him too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: And I'm the opposite, I feel like we've seen an enormous amount of long-term damage done when we've made bets like that, and we've seen other teams repeatedly do a lot of damage to themselves with similar moves. I'm not a huge fan of Cease and would definitely sell on him if he still has a ton of value. I'd trade both Cease and Dunning before Kopech or Vaughn. I'm fine moving out a couple of young pitchers for a long term plug. I wouldn't want to trade Kopech or Crochet though. Edited November 9, 2020 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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