La Russa arrested for DUI in Feb; charged day before hire

[Texsox]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Wow, are you comparing slavery to employing a douchebag who got a DUI?

No he wasn't. He was giving very obvious examples of times when I would support an economic boycott. I wasn't understanding his other examples so he needed to exaggerate it enough for me to understand. 

I believe I am being consistent in favoring the workers. In the example he gave a boycott would help end the exploitation of workers and I would join the cause.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, gusguyman said:

Am I being immoral when I don't buy Sox merch or tickets because they suck? Its only immoral to affect the Sox bottom line when its for non-sports related reasons? Shit, I should have read the Sox Fan Contract before I signed it, I didn't realize there was a minimum spending limit each year. 

You are 100% entitled to make a decision on whether to use your hard earned dollars to support the team.  Going after sponsorships is making a decision on behalf of all of us.  There is a fundamental difference between the two.  And I’m not saying you are being immoral by going after sponsorships, but rather I’m saying that you’re ignoring potential ancillary impacts.

[Texsox]

On 11/12/2020 at 12:39 PM, shakes said:

You said punish the guilty. Legally, he was never guilty of anything. Why is that different?

The difference is between firing the person who is a detriment to the organization versus trying to hurt advertising sales, which hurts other employees, in the hope it hurts the team enough so the team does what they should have done in the first place and fired the person. One is direct and punishes the person who did something wrong (people get fired all the time for non criminal reasons), the other is indirect and harms people not involved in the original situation.

 

[Eminor3rd]

On 11/12/2020 at 2:01 PM, shakes said:

But it is doing just that, protecting those who have done something wrong .

But fine, I'll switch gears - it's OK we have differing opinions on this. Imagine if the Sox had better leadership, that was held accountable, and didn't perpetually have some of the worst attendance in baseball. Imagine how well those ticket agents could do, and how many more they would have to hire if they made better decisions and cared about their fans. 

Short term pain, for long term gain. Or, we could just let Jerry keep not caring about anyone else, alienate their fans and let those ticket agents miss out on huge opportunity cost.

 

It's so easy to say "short term pain, long term gain" when you can de-humanize the people it affects.

Understand that, given the current landscape, most of everyone who is getting laid off in sports right now will not be able to find another job in the industry, despite having sacrificed substantial amounts of time and income to get where they are. These jobs are flat out disappearing.

I'm not saying you can't argue that you're doing the right thing -- but I don't think you're putting adequate weight on what TexSox is pointing out: that you seem to be very willing to throw a ton of people's livelihoods under the bus to send a message to a couple rich dudes who are just doing this as a hobby at this point --  which I don't read to be your intention at all. And this isn't at all to argue that the org isn't completely in the wrong, and that you shouldn't try to tell them, but we should all be thinking hard about what the actual net consequences are for what we're threatening.

[shakes]

6 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

It's so easy to say "short term pain, long term gain" when you can de-humanize the people it affects.

Understand that, given the current landscape, most of everyone who is getting laid off in sports right now will not be able to find another job in the industry, despite having sacrificed substantial amounts of time and income to get where they are. These jobs are flat out disappearing.

I'm not saying you can't argue that you're doing the right thing -- but I don't think you're putting adequate weight on what TexSox is pointing out: that you seem to be very willing to throw a ton of people's livelihoods under the bus to send a message to a couple rich dudes who are just doing this as a hobby at this point --  which I don't read to be your intention at all. And this isn't at all to argue that the org isn't completely in the wrong, and that you shouldn't try to tell them, but we should all be thinking hard about what the actual net consequences are for what we're threatening.

A ton of people's livelihoods? How many people do you think will be laid off because the fans reaction to this? I don't think it can even compare to the amount of jobs that don't exist because Jerry runs this so poorly. And what happens to those people if this shortens the window for the Sox? What happens if they aren't as successful as they think they are going to be this year? Do you think this helps the Sox national exposure - which leads to merchandise sales, advertisers, more casual fans, pass through business? Why aren't we worried about those employees that aren't reaping benefits from that?

Stop with the self owns, Improve your product, image, and show your fans some appreciation and the situation gets better for everyone. Keep spitting in the face of your customers and the employees will pay for it. 

[Chicago White Sox]

52 minutes ago, shakes said:

This is exactly what Jerry is banking on. His strategy to not really address it and kick the responsibility down the road, while people get distracted and forget about it because it's hard, is going to work. Well, it works in the short term. It's just another reason to add to the pile of why the Sox are a non-entity nationally and an afterthought in Chicago. It's why the attendance is what it is, and why the Sox budget sits where it sits. 

There's always a reason that nothing can be done. Didn't think it would be the working man this time, but it's always something. There is a special kind of Stockholm syndrome with Sox fans that I don't see in other fanbases. 

Jerry is banking on being the same guy he’s been for 40 years?

[Chicago White Sox]

38 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

It's so easy to say "short term pain, long term gain" when you can de-humanize the people it affects.

Understand that, given the current landscape, most of everyone who is getting laid off in sports right now will not be able to find another job in the industry, despite having sacrificed substantial amounts of time and income to get where they are. These jobs are flat out disappearing.

I'm not saying you can't argue that you're doing the right thing -- but I don't think you're putting adequate weight on what TexSox is pointing out: that you seem to be very willing to throw a ton of people's livelihoods under the bus to send a message to a couple rich dudes who are just doing this as a hobby at this point --  which I don't read to be your intention at all. And this isn't at all to argue that the org isn't completely in the wrong, and that you shouldn't try to tell them, but we should all be thinking hard about what the actual net consequences are for what we're threatening.

Thank you!!  As someone who actually works in professional baseball, I’m glad you came out and humanized the potential consequences.

[shakes]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jerry is banking on being the same guy he’s been for 40 years?

I explained that in the next sentence. He's banking on people doing nothing about it and it disappearing into the next news cycle. 

[Chicago White Sox]

24 minutes ago, shakes said:

A ton of people's livelihoods? How many people do you think will be laid off because the fans reaction to this? I don't think it can even compare to the amount of jobs that don't exist because Jerry runs this so poorly. And what happens to those people if this shortens the window for the Sox? What happens if they aren't as successful as they think they are going to be this year? Do you think this helps the Sox national exposure - which leads to merchandise sales, advertisers, more casual fans, pass through business? Why aren't we worried about those employees that aren't reaping benefits from that?

Stop with the self owns, Improve your product, image, and show your fans some appreciation and the situation gets better for everyone. Keep spitting in the face of your customers and the employees will pay for it. 

Jerry isn’t going to run the team differently no matter what you do...that’s the point.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, shakes said:

I explained that in the next sentence. He's banking on people doing nothing about it and it disappearing into the next news cycle. 

For this issue of course he is.  But ultimately he’s going to do whatever he wants regardless of fan outcry.  Our fanbase has withered away over the years because of a lot of his actions including the 1994 strike and the White Flag trade and he simply doesn’t care.  Any revenue loss will simply result in less operating expenses, meaning payroll cuts or non-player headcount reductions.  That’s the reality no matter how unwilling you are to accept it.

[shakes]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

For this issue of course he is.  But ultimately he’s going to do whatever he wants regardless of fan outcry.  Our fanbase has withered away over the years because of a lot of his actions including the 1994 strike and the White Flag trade and he simply doesn’t care.  Any revenue loss will simply result in less operating expenses, meaning payroll cuts or non-player headcount reductions.  That’s the reality no matter how unwilling you are to accept it.

In the end you are probably right, but I'm not going to tell others to accept that reality if they want to push back - and I'm not going to do it under the guise that it's to save the mid and lower level employees. What happens to them, as unfair as it is, is on Jerry and the Sox leadership, it's not on the fans who are upset. And as you said, the dwindling fanbase is a direct result of these types of decisions, and that has a much much larger impact on those employees than a handful of calls and emails to advertisers. 

[southsider2k5]

17 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Thank you!!  As someone who actually works in professional baseball, I’m glad you came out and humanized the potential consequences.

Because the only humanity that matters, are the one collecting checks from the White Sox.

[Chicago White Sox]

14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Because the only humanity that matters, are the one collecting checks from the White Sox.

So you’d be ok with Eminor3rd losing his job as long as La Russa loses his?

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

So you’d be ok with Eminor3rd losing his job as long as La Russa loses his?

So you'd be OK with TLR killing someone coming home from a White Sox game if he didn't?

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

So you'd be OK with TLR killing someone coming home from a White Sox game if he didn't?

Lol...again, Tony La Russa is going to drink & drive whether he works for the Sox or not.  Your crusade isn’t saving any lives.  I can’t believe you are still making this ridiculous argument.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol...again, Tony La Russa is going to drink & drive whether he works for the Sox or not.  Your crusade isn’t saving any lives.  I can’t believe you are still making this ridiculous argument.

And I can't believe people are pretending that Jerry isn't responsible for what happens to the franchise.

[Chisoxfn]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So you'd be OK with TLR killing someone coming home from a White Sox game if he didn't?

That is up to TLR and has absolutely nothing to do with him being a Mgr of a White Sox. PERIOD.  TLR collecting checks from White Sox can be something as a Sox fan you don't like, but that isn't the driving force behind TLR choosing to get behind a wheel impaired or not.  That choice is TLR and TLR's alone.  Now if White Sox enable him and are pushing drinks his way and not supporting him to be in programs or whatever else, totally different story.

Reality is - we can disagree with Sox choosing to hire TLR despite the recent DUI, but most of you already concluded TLR was a racist who wasn't going to change the game. I don't know how or why or where it came to those ways that so many people jumped to such extreme conclusions out of the gate - but they did.  They took pocketed quotes to assume x, y or z and kept following the narrative that aligned to their opinion (not unusual - confirmation bias at its finest) and ignored lots of other data points...because they made up there mind. 

None of us actually know what TLR and JR said when this came out and how TLR said it. Did he go, Jerry I fell off the wagon a second time or third time or whatever it was back in February, since than I've been in a program and am 100% clean.  JR could have said - that was the wrong decision and you can not make those choices but I appreciate the fact that you've been transparent and are in a program and point blank, there will be zero tolerance for any F-up's. No other chance. We are committing to helping you through the program and will ensure we partner to do that.  

The point is - none of us know. The Sox blew it and everything else - but everyone out here getting all pissy is spending a lot of time looking for confirmation bias. If it was your sister or brother or best friend who got their 2nd DUI. Would you be calling their employer and saying they should be fired from their job - or would you be there trying to help them get the problem fixed so they never had to deal with it again.  

[Chisoxfn]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And I can't believe people are pretending that Jerry isn't responsible for what happens to the franchise.

Jerry is responsible for what happens to the franchise - but TLR doing what he does is his choice. JR has to own up to the negative press that he is getting and he's fully responsible for that.  But he doesn't have to own up for TLR making a massive mistake. Someone can say - he should have known...fine, fair enough. But don't say see - if Jerry didn't hire him that would have never have happened.   Quit making an excuse and put the responsibility where it lies - with TLR.  

What if being a Mgr for a White Sox was actually better. What if JR stipulated to Tony that he had to attend a weekly AA meeting and could never be seen around the club with alcohol.  Does that mean Jerry made the world a better place because now Tony is with an organization which will put him in a better chance not to repeat those past mistakes?  I'm making this scenario up and I have no idea what TLR thinks of what happens nor do I know what JR thinks.  None of us do - but everyone has an opinion and they all are JR doesn't care, he's condoning it, etc.  None of us know. 

JR has always been known as a decent human being - I know that much.  We can argue whether he is the best owner of our franchise, but I don't recall any stories about him being anything other than a decent human being.  Yet here I see so many people saying the contrary - basically allowing one situation overcome the 100's of positive situations that came up.   

I still can't believe I'm having to be on the other side of the house defending some of these absolutely crazy extreme takes that are out there - and by the way - I'm sure you think the same thing of my takes here - that is the beauty of this. We each got our opinion and are entitled to it.  Thank god for that.  And I'm still missing out on the fact that we never got that game in Anaheim cause of this - but when this is done - I've committed to my family we are making it back out to Chicago - so that beer & game is coming either way (it just might be in your neck of the woods vs. mine). 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Chisoxfn said:

That is up to TLR and has absolutely nothing to do with him being a Mgr of a White Sox. PERIOD.  TLR collecting checks from White Sox can be something as a Sox fan you don't like, but that isn't the driving force behind TLR choosing to get behind a wheel impaired or not.  That choice is TLR and TLR's alone.  Now if White Sox enable him and are pushing drinks his way and not supporting him to be in programs or whatever else, totally different story.

Reality is - we can disagree with Sox choosing to hire TLR despite the recent DUI, but most of you already concluded TLR was a racist who wasn't going to change the game. I don't know how or why or where it came to those ways that so many people jumped to such extreme conclusions out of the gate - but they did.  They took pocketed quotes to assume x, y or z and kept following the narrative that aligned to their opinion (not unusual - confirmation bias at its finest) and ignored lots of other data points...because they made up there mind. 

None of us actually know what TLR and JR said when this came out and how TLR said it. Did he go, Jerry I fell off the wagon a second time or third time or whatever it was back in February, since than I've been in a program and am 100% clean.  JR could have said - that was the wrong decision and you can not make those choices but I appreciate the fact that you've been transparent and are in a program and point blank, there will be zero tolerance for any F-up's. No other chance. We are committing to helping you through the program and will ensure we partner to do that.  

The point is - none of us know. The Sox blew it and everything else - but everyone out here getting all pissy is spending a lot of time looking for confirmation bias. If it was your sister or brother or best friend who got their 2nd DUI. Would you be calling their employer and saying they should be fired from their job - or would you be there trying to help them get the problem fixed so they never had to deal with it again.  

Having a parent who had multiple DUIs, including taking his own kids along for trips where he definitely didn't get busted while driving drunk with us?  Fuck yes I would.  He was an alcoholic who endangered people's lives for decades.  I would have had zero problems with a company telling him that they couldn't responsibly employ him as a danger to everyone around him.  He was an addict.  The only time he wasn't drinking was when he couldn't afford to, so his not working for long periods of time was actually some of the times in his life he was most tolerable to be around.  He wasn't nearly as aggressive, violent or abusive when he was sober.  He was at his worst when he had a high paying job, expense account, and a company car.  Again he could do whatever he wanted, and mostly did, but there is no obligation for someone to attach themselves to that trainwreck and enable it continue under their watch.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

And I can't believe people are pretending that Jerry isn't responsible for what happens to the franchise.

Who said he isn’t responsible?  Of course he is, but if you know how he’s going to respond to something and you decide to ignore those consequences then the blame also falls on you to some extent.  You may have the best of intentions, but you’d be putting your moral compass over the possible well being of others.  Again, you aren’t saving any lives here, you are standing up for moral convictions.  It’s an honorable thing to do if the payoff outweigh the costs.  Given the incredibly high likelihood Jerry acts like guy he’s been for 40 years and keeps Tony anyways, my guess is no good comes from going after sponsorships.  All that being said, I hope I’m wrong and that your efforts eventually pay off.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

Who said he isn’t responsible?  Of course he is, but if you know how he’s going to respond to something and you decide to ignore those consequences then the blame also falls on you to some extent.  You may have the best of intentions, but you’d be putting your moral compass over the possible well being of others.  Again, you aren’t saving any lives here, you are standing up for moral convictions.  It’s an honorable thing to do if the payoff outweigh the costs.  Given the incredibly high likelihood Jerry acts like guy he’s been for 40 years and keeps Tony anyways, my guess is no good comes from going after sponsorships.  All that being said, I hope I’m wrong and that your efforts eventually pay off.

You keep saying this, but it isn't true.  Jerry is putting HIS moral compass over the possible well being of everyone who could die or experience losses because of Tony's being an employee of the Chicago White Sox.  Jerry his putting his moral compass of potentially employing TLR, even if it means he fires other people to make it work.

[Chisoxfn]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Having a parent who had multiple DUIs, including taking his own kids along for trips where he definitely didn't get busted while driving drunk with us?  Fuck yes I would.  He was an alcoholic who endangered people's lives for decades.  I would have had zero problems with a company telling him that they couldn't responsibly employ him as a danger to everyone around him.  He was an addict.  The only time he wasn't drinking was when he couldn't afford to, so his not working for long periods of time was actually some of the times in his life he was most tolerable to be around.  He wasn't nearly as aggressive, violent or abusive when he was sober.  He was at his worst when he had a high paying job, expense account, and a company car.  Again he could do whatever he wanted, and mostly did, but there is no obligation for someone to attach themselves to that trainwreck and enable it continue under their watch.

Mike, this is well said and helps me put things in perspective as well.  I may not agree with all your points, but I have nothing but respect for your stance and passion behind this. Shows me 100% your true character (which is without a doubt stellar - not that such was ever in question!).  

[southsider2k5]

36 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Mike, this is well said and helps me put things in perspective as well.  I may not agree with all your points, but I have nothing but respect for your stance and passion behind this. Shows me 100% your true character (which is without a doubt stellar - not that such was ever in question!).  

And I totally missed the last paragraph,  but I can't wait to catch a game with you again. Those Soxtalk outings were some great times.

[SCCWS]

2 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Jerry is responsible for what happens to the franchise - but TLR doing what he does is his choice. JR has to own up to the negative press that he is getting and he's fully responsible for that.  But he doesn't have to own up for TLR making a massive mistake. Someone can say - he should have known...fine, fair enough. But don't say see - if Jerry didn't hire him that would have never have happened.   Quit making an excuse and put the responsibility where it lies - with TLR.  

What if being a Mgr for a White Sox was actually better. What if JR stipulated to Tony that he had to attend a weekly AA meeting and could never be seen around the club with alcohol.  Does that mean Jerry made the world a better place because now Tony is with an organization which will put him in a better chance not to repeat those past mistakes?  I'm making this scenario up and I have no idea what TLR thinks of what happens nor do I know what JR thinks.  None of us do - but everyone has an opinion and they all are JR doesn't care, he's condoning it, etc.  None of us know. 

JR has always been known as a decent human being - I know that much.  We can argue whether he is the best owner of our franchise, but I don't recall any stories about him being anything other than a decent human being.  Yet here I see so many people saying the contrary - basically allowing one situation overcome the 100's of positive situations that came up.   

I still can't believe I'm having to be on the other side of the house defending some of these absolutely crazy extreme takes that are out there - and by the way - I'm sure you think the same thing of my takes here - that is the beauty of this. We each got our opinion and are entitled to it.  Thank god for that.  And I'm still missing out on the fact that we never got that game in Anaheim cause of this - but when this is done - I've committed to my family we are making it back out to Chicago - so that beer & game is coming either way (it just might be in your neck of the woods vs. mine). 

This is true, we don't know how TLR and JR resolved this. . Maybe TLR has seen the light at the end  of the tunnel and made reparations for now his  2nd offense as well as his actions when confronted by the police.  But the other side is maybe TLR will get a lawyer to sweep this under the carpet as he tried to do with the arresting officer.  As I posted previously, a 76 year old driving under the influence can be a grave hazard on the road so hopefully TLR has a designated driver should it happen again.  I wonder if JR still drives?

[Eminor3rd]

3 hours ago, shakes said:

A ton of people's livelihoods? How many people do you think will be laid off because the fans reaction to this? I don't think it can even compare to the amount of jobs that don't exist because Jerry runs this so poorly. And what happens to those people if this shortens the window for the Sox? What happens if they aren't as successful as they think they are going to be this year? Do you think this helps the Sox national exposure - which leads to merchandise sales, advertisers, more casual fans, pass through business? Why aren't we worried about those employees that aren't reaping benefits from that?

Stop with the self owns, Improve your product, image, and show your fans some appreciation and the situation gets better for everyone. Keep spitting in the face of your customers and the employees will pay for it. 

How many people will be laid off because of the fans reaction to this? Depends on what that reaction is and how successful it is. If their reaction is pressure corporate sponsors to remove revenue, and they are successful enough that they get enough sponsors to jump ship that JR actually feels like he has no choice but to comply -- I imagine it will be a pretty significant number of layoffs. Is it worth it?

Another way to frame it: How many innocents do you think should lose jobs in order for TLR to lose his? I'm not gaslighting -- I'm firmly on the remove TLR bandwagon, but if doing so means any number of innocents have to go down with him, I'd rather he stayed. Put another way, I would rather try to find a different way to put pressure on the team, one without people's livelihoods as potential collateral damage.

Anyway, I think that's Texsox's point, and I would at the very least urge everyone to consider it before trying to cut the team's corporate revenue.