Sox/Pederson speculation via CSN

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Maybe Moncada has a better season to make up for any regression. I don't see Abreu regressing much.

I'd bet on it....he has to remember to be a bit more aggressive than he was this past season. 

[Vulture]

1 hour ago, Rey21 said:

Brother, check my other posts, if the Sox fail to sign Springer and end up with Joc I’m cool with it if it means Ozuna is here also. Trade Vaughn for controllable SPs 

I'd rather take my chances with Vaughn and put that Ozuna money into pitching. You can stack your lineup all day long but without the pitching to match you're still looking up at the elite teams. Sox offense already projects at elite level, the pitching is a couple steps behind. Look at those Detroit teams of eight to ten years ago or so. Lineup and starting rotation stacked but their bullpen was garbage. Piling on top of that lineup wouldnt have fixed that fatal flaw.

You could spend the Ozuna money on signing Hendriks and Hand on presumably shorter term deals, and have an absolutely stacked bullpen to go along with already elite offense while maintaining financial flexibility three years down the road when you need to start worrying about resigning some of the eliteplayers we already have or rebolstering the rotation. Sign a starter to fill out the rotation now, and keep the generational level bat in Vaughn. With Vaughn we can realistically look 6-7 years down the road and project to still have at least Robert and Vaughn in their primes to build a lineup around. Not many teams can do that with that level of talent. Those two have HOFer ceilings. Vaughn could end up making Konerko look like Greg Walker. This is one of the most well rounded bats you're ever going to see.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Vulture

[Chicago White Sox]

12 minutes ago, SouthWallace said:

If Vaughn needs time to develop, as is your reasoning for signing Ozuna, he's not returning multiple controllable SPs.  Dropping 4/$100M on a DH when this offense already has the potential to be tops in the AL, while also not addressing the other other needs, is fallacy.  

I love Ozuna’s bat, but I really don’t see him as an option for us.  With Abreu & Vaughn in fold and Eloy at risk of moving to DH in a couple years, any bat we add of materiality needs to be able to play the OF on a regular basis and Ozuna really isn’t that guy unfortunately.

[southsider2k5]

4 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Jerry has been whining to the media about losing money for months, I can't see him playing at the big boy table this winter. 

He gave 1 interview where someone asked him a question about losses. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'd bet on it....he has to remember to be a bit more aggressive than he was this past season. 

I think we have to seriously consider that COVID could affect the rest of his career. We have no idea how bad it was maybe he or his Doctors don't know that either yet. I mean ,we think it wasn't that bad. After all he didn't miss too much time but maybe his stamina never returned or there are lasting affects to his cardiovascular system.

:Nearly one-fourth of those hospitalized with COVID-19 have been diagnosed with cardiovascular complications, which have been shown to contribute to roughly 40% of all COVID-19-related deaths.

But two recent studies suggest heart damage among those infected may be more widespread. In JAMA Cardiology, an analysis of autopsies done on 39 COVID-19 patients identified infections in the hearts of patients who had not been diagnosed with cardiovascular issues while they were ill.

Another JAMA Cardiology study used cardiac MRIs on 100 people who had recovered from COVID-19 within the past two to three months. Researchers found abnormalities in the hearts of 78% recovered patients and "ongoing myocardial inflammation" in 60%. The same study found high levels of the blood enzyme troponin, an indicator of heart damage, in 76% of patients tested, although heart function appeared to be generally preserved. Most patients in the study had not required hospitalization."

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2020/09/03/what-covid-19-is-doing-to-the-heart-even-after-recovery

[Dick Allen]

Give Ozuna, who teams feel is a DH, $100 million. Trade Vaughn. This is lunacy. Why do posters want the Sox window to be open as short as possible. We put up with losing to get guys like Vaughn, not to trade him away so the Sox can have their payroll locked and are one injury away fro 3rd or 4th place.

[scs787]

16 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Jerry has been whining to the media about losing money for months, I can't see him playing at the big boy table this winter. 

I bet if you look around the league, most front offices are talking about this because its the reality we are in right now. 

I'm all for Joc especially if Vaughn is being brought up here in short order. I know there's no such thing as being too greedy/good when it comes to sports, but we're really talking about a bottom of the order bat here. With Vaughn and Joc at DH and RF we're talking about a 7-9 of Vaughn/Joc/Madrigal. That's just insane to me. 

[RagahRagah]

On 11/27/2020 at 10:28 AM, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

Joc is such an obvious fit. Signing Joc and Bauer is the way to go. 

I don't think there's much of a chance that Bauer is going to end up here and I really want to aim a lot higher than Joc but I'm definitely okay with Joc is our right fielder if we actually manage to land Bauer.

But if Trevor doesn't end up here amd Joc ends up being our right fielder I would say that would likely be pretty indicative of a failure of an offseason.

[Jack Parkman]

9 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

I don't think there's much of a chance that Bauer is going to end up here and I really want to aim a lot higher than Joc but I'm definitely okay with Joc is our right fielder if we actually manage to land Bauer.

But if Trevor doesn't end up here and Joc ends up being our right fielder I would say that would likely be pretty indicative of a failure of an offseason.

If they don't get Bauer or Springer would you call the offseason a failure? 

I don't think there's much of a chance that Springer ends up here either. 

If so, be prepared to call the offseason a failure. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[RagahRagah]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

If they don't get Bauer or Springer would you call the offseason a failure? 

I don't think there's much of a chance that Springer ends up here either. 

If so, be prepared to call the offseason a failure. 

That's basically what I said. Yes. And don't get me wrong, and no way would I be surprised if that ended up being the case. I think I just speak for a lot of people when I say it gets tiresome and depressing year after year teether with on these good free agents or not even try. The rebuild is over, this is exactly the time where we should be buying.

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, RagahRagah said:

That's basically what I said. Yes. And don't get me wrong, and no way would I be surprised if that ended up being the case. I think I just speak for a lot of people when I say it gets tiresome and depressing year after year teether with on these good free agents or not even try. The rebuild is over, this is exactly the time where we should be buying.

It seems like we did buy last year.  Abreu, Grandal, Keuchal, Encarnation were all big contracts.  This narrative that we are cheap and never going to sign free agents and complaining we havent signed anyone here on Nov 28th is just Sox psychosis 

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

It seems like we did buy last year.  Abreu, Grandal, Keuchal, Encarnation were all big contracts.  This narrative that we are cheap and never going to sign free agents and complaining we havent signed anyone here on Nov 28th is just Sox psychosis 

The yearly drum beat.

[YourWhatHurts]

11 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Give Ozuna, who teams feel is a DH, $100 million. Trade Vaughn. This is lunacy. Why do posters want the Sox window to be open as short as possible. We put up with losing to get guys like Vaughn, not to trade him away so the Sox can have their payroll locked and are one injury away fro 3rd or 4th place.

Yeah that's pretty ridiculous.  How about let's not put butchers in both OF corners for starters.

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Yeah that's pretty ridiculous.  How about let's not put butchers in both OF corners for starters.

Good idea!

[RagahRagah]

11 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

It seems like we did buy last year.  Abreu, Grandal, Keuchal, Encarnation were all big contracts.  This narrative that we are cheap and never going to sign free agents and complaining we havent signed anyone here on Nov 28th is just Sox psychosis 

Umm... the fact Grandal's signing was the biggest in Sox history shows that it's not a narrative, but a fact.

[michelangelosmonkey]

2 hours ago, RagahRagah said:

Umm... the fact Grandal's signing was the biggest in Sox history shows that it's not a narrative, but a fact.

Interesting.  So the White Sox spent $200 mill on free agent contracts last year and you stand by your argument that the White Sox wont spend on free agents because...You deny the evidence?  Oh shut up?  That's not how poker is played? 

[RagahRagah]

8 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Interesting.  So the White Sox spent $200 mill on free agent contracts last year and you stand by your argument that the White Sox wont spend on free agents because...You deny the evidence?  Oh shut up?  That's not how poker is played? 

Umm... spending modestly/moderately on numerous free agents =/= spending big on a monster FA player. The later being something the Sox almost literally have never done is what most of us are frustrated about  You act like 200 million was for one year of payroll or a signing for one big FA. They offered one to Wheeler but he didn't take it. Yes, they added several players on mostly modest or moderate signings when their payroll was at a staggering low. They didn't get the one or two *big* contracts and overall they didn't balloon their payroll. Grandal was the biggest signing in history and is nowhere near in the realm of anyone we're currently talking about in Free Agency. You're dancing around the point and are either purposely being intellectually dishonest or dense (again).

No one has ever said the Sox "won't sign free agents" as you put it verbatim so the only assumption to make based on that wording is that they don't sign the *big* free agents. And they still haven't. Grandal wasn't that big yet it was the biggest in team history and again, no one else they signed was to a *big* contract. So either way... I stand correct.

And then the pointless, pithy comment at the end shows how much you think your point stands on its own merits (which is not at all). When your words can't carry weight it's time for petulance. (You failing to understand a pretty basic analogy is your embarrassment, not mine)

Edited November 29, 2020 by RagahRagah

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, RagahRagah said:

Umm... spending modestly/moderately on numerous free agents =/= spending big on a monster FA player. The later being something the Sox almost literally have never done is what most of us are frustrated about  You act like 200 million was for one year of payroll or a signing for one big FA. They offered one to Wheeler but he didn't take it. Yes, they added several players on mostly modest or moderate signings when their payroll was at a staggering low. They didn't get the one or two *big* contracts and overall they didn't balloon their payroll. Grandal was the biggest signing in history and is nowhere near in the realm of anyone we're currently talking about in Free Agency. You're dancing around the point and are either purposely being intellectually dishonest or dense (again).

No one has ever said the Sox "won't sign free agents" as you put it verbatim so the only assumption to make based on that wording is that they don't sign the *big* free agents. And they still haven't. Grandal wasn't that big yet it was the biggest in team history and again, no one else they signed was to a *big* contract. So either way... I stand correct.

And then the pointless, pithy comment at the end shows how much you think your point stands on its own merits (which is not at all). When your words can't carry weight it's time for petulance. (You failing to understand a pretty basic analogy is your embarrassment, not mine)

I'm sorry if you have a hard time following your own argument you said "...this is exactly the time where we should be buying."  I'm merely pointed out that we spent a LOT of money on free agents last year.  I didn't act like it was for one big contract....but why would that matter?   If you even understood poker you would understand that defraying the risks over many bets is a better strategy than going all in on one big bet.  How did Anthony Rendon's $220 million contract help the Angels?  Or Harpers $330 million help the Phillies...or Patrick Corbins $120 million help the Diamondbacks...or Cespedes $110 million help the Mets...or Jason Heyward's $180 mill help the Cubs or Greinke's $200 mill help the Diamondbacks or Chris Davis's $!61 million help the Orioles on and on and on.   If your argument is the "Big" free agent gets you over the top...that is almost never true.  If your argument is the White Sox never sign the top free agent...well they paid the highest contract ever for any team with Albert Belle 25 years ago and that was a mess.  The White Sox are spending money sensibly and you calling them cheap belies the reality. 

[nitetrain8601]

Vaughn is not a prospect you extend early. That's asking for a Sean Kingery situation. Vaughn is also not someone who you say "Oh, we can't block him". He's a good prospect, that's it at this point. 

 

With that stated, Joc in RF and SP is the way to go for me. I think it will give you the largest ROI for next season.

[Hatchetman]

40 years of being cheap is not negated by signing Dallas Keuchel and Grandal to $50MM or $70MM contracts. That's like the going rate for normal players.

[RagahRagah]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm sorry if you have a hard time following your own argument you said "...this is exactly the time where we should be buying."  I'm merely pointed out that we spent a LOT of money on free agents last year.  I didn't act like it was for one big contract....but why would that matter?   If you even understood poker you would understand that defraying the risks over many bets is a better strategy than going all in on one big bet.  How did Anthony Rendon's $220 million contract help the Angels?  Or Harpers $330 million help the Phillies...or Patrick Corbins $120 million help the Diamondbacks...or Cespedes $110 million help the Mets...or Jason Heyward's $180 mill help the Cubs or Greinke's $200 mill help the Diamondbacks or Chris Davis's $!61 million help the Orioles on and on and on.   If your argument is the "Big" free agent gets you over the top...that is almost never true.  If your argument is the White Sox never sign the top free agent...well they paid the highest contract ever for any team with Albert Belle 25 years ago and that was a mess.  The White Sox are spending money sensibly and you calling them cheap belies the reality. 

Yet you saw me clarify in the following post yet you are acting as if I didn't. Again, you're being purposely dishonest.

The argument is true because that's just what today's market looks like. You're not gonna get an A-lister without paying an A-list price.  You using this player or that player as an example of a contract that hasn't worked out has nothing to do with the actual point. Also, none of those teams you are cherry picking are the 2020 White Sox, are they? Comparing this team to the Orioles (61 million isn't even in the damn range we are talking about)? Seriously? The White Sox are actually a contending team, there's no team you just used as an example that was at the time of signing those players a remote comparison to the 2020 White Sox.

And you asking how Harper helps the Phillies is frankly a really dumb question. They are benefiting more than just having a good baseball player. But you don't have a logical mindset so you can't use discretion to see the differences between your very own examples. Too much black and white thinking.

"Sensibly?" Sure they are. But sometimes paying a lot is sensible too. Not sure why you think going all out for one big guy is insensible. If we want someone like Bauer, Springer, Ozuna, etc. then we will have to pay a premium price, like they actually TRIED with Wheeler (which pretty much invalidates your own argument). As expected, your arguments are all over the place and severely lacking coherence.

Again, since you again ignored every point I made, Grandal's contract was not huge by today's market and again... signing a bunch of players to modest/moderate contracts =/= signing a major superstar or A-list player to a blockbuster contract. As an earlier poster suggested, the idea that countless years of being cheap is suddenly negated by signing a few players to going rates is a laughable argument.

Edited November 30, 2020 by RagahRagah

[michelangelosmonkey]

Phillies were like us just a year earlier and since 2017 signed Arietta, Wheeler, Harper, McCuthchen and Santana for $630 million...and that got them two year where they were a combined four games under .500 record and now they are in a financial mess...so you'll have to explain to me the side benefits they are getting. 2016 Orioles were a young talented team that had won 89 games and gone to the playoffs and paid 160 million (not 60) for Chris Davis and he bombed and now their franchise is in ruins.  Last year the Nationals "won" Strasburg for $275 million and they ended up 8 games under .500. You think the Padres spending $450 million on two players the last two years pushed them over the top?  You think that won't bite them?  Last year they got 4 WAR out of the two of them for $50 million.  Next year they will be 28 and 31 and cost them $53 million.     

OK it would be fun to be the Yankees or Dodgers with their annual $250 million budget...but we aren't so we have to spend money wisely.  Last year we got Grandal who is top 3 catcher in baseball...not sure why that's not a blockbuster deal.  We also got Keuchel who put up 2.1 WAR for $18 million while the Yankees got the shiny penny in Gerrit Cole who put up 2.2 WAR for $36 million.   I honestly think you have PTSD from the rebuild.   Come on man we are White Sox fans.   They had a great off season last year, the team has a ton of talent, our payroll is only $100 million for next year ($20 million less than the Padres), no really bad contracts on the books (like Meyer and Hoesner are for the Pads) and the free agent market has just begun.  Don't wallow in self hatred until we see how this plays out.   Enjoy the process.      

 

[Vulture]

5 hours ago, Hatchetman said:

40 years of being cheap is not negated by signing Dallas Keuchel and Grandal to $50MM or $70MM contracts. That's like the going rate for normal players.

Both of those guys are well above average players though. That's the point. It's more sensible to spend 120 million on two guys who will each give 95% of the production one guy will give at 150 milliion. Particularly when you already have elite players to build around. People were crying about going cheap on Keuchel and he outproduced the guy they wanted to sign for what he and Grandal made combined.

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Vulture

[35thstreetswarm]

I’d be very excited about a Springer and/or Bauer signing.  But the bottom line is that I think that with just a modest upgrade in RF and the rotation we are poised to be really good next year.  For that reason I refuse to allow myself to get too despondent over any particular offseason move or miss.  Lots of paths to happiness with this roster. 

[GreenSox]

He's fine (if they can't get Springer) but they'll need to get him a platoon partner.  And the  nice thing about that is that now you have a bench bat, something that the Sox had last year with McCann, but have rarely had over the years.