South Side Hit Men Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Regardless of who the White Sox sign or don't sign this offseason, the Sox need to stop signing DHs, and stop drafting DHs. They need to sign outfielders and move Eloy to DH ASAP. Eloy is far worse than Schwarber in LF, not a praise of Schwarber but rather an indictment of Eloy's abilities. Carlos Lee and Dave Kingman have better dWAR numbers. Not only does Eloy's defense costs you 2 games each full season, but it costs him significant lost games each year because he hurts himself trying to play the position. Hell, he hurts himself jumping up and down celebrating a no-hitter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 6 hours ago, EvilJester99 said: An outfield or Eloy and Schwarb?? Yikes.. the meltdowns would be epic though.. He'd DH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: Regardless of who the White Sox sign or don't sign this offseason, the Sox need to stop signing DHs, and stop drafting DHs. They need to sign outfielders and move Eloy to DH ASAP. Eloy is far worse than Schwarber in LF, not a praise of Schwarber but rather an indictment of Eloy's abilities. Carlos Lee and Dave Kingman have better dWAR numbers. Not only does Eloy's defense costs you 2 games each full season, but it costs him significant lost games each year because he hurts himself trying to play the position. Hell, he hurts himself jumping up and down celebrating a no-hitter. Strongly disagree DH is one of the easiest and cheapest way to get offense onto your ballclub. The issue isn't bringing in a DH it's who we've brought into DH. To give an example say you have a SS who has a .730 OPS with ok defense you maybe have to pay them 5-7M. To bring in a SS like for example machado who will hit .820-.850 with ok defense you are looking at 30M. Our DH according to fangraphs hit .570 OPS last year. Lets say it was only .730 well to bump that up to what Schwarber 3 year split was .825 and he got nontendered at a 5M proj arb figure. It's lunacy to not have a good hitter at DH. You are sacrificing so much value that has to be made up elsewhere for much more of a premium. So no I don't want them to bring a scrub at DH. Next to pitching it's probably our number one need. Edited December 3, 2020 by wrathofhahn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 3 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: Regardless of who the White Sox sign or don't sign this offseason, the Sox need to stop signing DHs, and stop drafting DHs. They need to sign outfielders and move Eloy to DH ASAP. Eloy is far worse than Schwarber in LF, not a praise of Schwarber but rather an indictment of Eloy's abilities. Carlos Lee and Dave Kingman have better dWAR numbers. Not only does Eloy's defense costs you 2 games each full season, but it costs him significant lost games each year because he hurts himself trying to play the position. Hell, he hurts himself jumping up and down celebrating a no-hitter. Eloy has basically played one full season (177 games). He's 23 years old. The idea that he can't ever improve defensively from his rookie season seems ridiculous. He also hit 32 doubles and 45 home runs in his first 177 games...I think he'll get better offensively too. Magglio was a pretty terrible defensive outfielder and still managed to put up a bunch of 5 WAR seasons. We need to stop surrendering at the first sign of resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 If KW read Schwarbers goodbye tweet to Cubs fans, he may offer Kyle more than his arb number. In it he said he loved to grind with his teammates. He’s a grinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: If KW read Schwarbers goodbye tweet to Cubs fans, he may offer Kyle more than his arb number. In it he said he loved to grind with his teammates. He’s a grinder. TLR loves grinders unfortunately his SO numbers tell a different story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Eloy has basically played one full season (177 games). He's 23 years old. The idea that he can't ever improve defensively from his rookie season seems ridiculous. He also hit 32 doubles and 45 home runs in his first 177 games...I think he'll get better offensively too. Magglio was a pretty terrible defensive outfielder and still managed to put up a bunch of 5 WAR seasons. We need to stop surrendering at the first sign of resistance. WAR is a misunderstood stat and is often used incorrectly by people who don't understand roster construction. Like our DH was the worst in the AL last year. The Blue Jays as an example created 55 runs (wRC) with their DH's (.816 OPS slightly lower then Schwabber splits). We created 14. For those against bringing in someone like Schwabber show me another position on the club where we can improve our wRC by 41 for 5.5M. If Eloy needs to be moved later to DH why are we pretending Schwabber would prevent that? He just was non-tendered why would anyone believe that he is somehow going to paid both in term and in money in a way that would block Eloy? Also Eloy is making serious money so lets make sure that he can't play the field before he moves to a fulltime DH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 22 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Magglio was a pretty terrible defensive outfielder and still managed to put up a bunch of 5 WAR seasons. Was he? That's not the way I remember it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said: He just was non-tendered why would anyone believe that he is somehow going to paid both in term and in money? Because not every team is looking to dump salary like the cubs are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Vulture said: Was he? That's not the way I remember it If memory serves didn't his knees get busted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrankinSox Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 4 hours ago, RagahRagah said: Anyone who is a better OF option, and there's quite a few. I understand the luxury that a more passable OF provides in terms of lineup flexibility, but we are talking about the DH spot. You want the best hitter. Leury and Engel provide defensive OF depth. If the Sox sign or trade for an everyday RF, let's just say Joc, then who do you propose we use at DH (taking Vaughn out of the equation)? Which specific FAs do you prefer to DH instead of Schwarber? I'm not saying he should be option #1, but he should be considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, Vulture said: Because not every team is looking to dump salary like the cubs are. Okay but he would have been traded then He at best will lget a similar offer Edited December 3, 2020 by wrathofhahn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said: WAR is a misunderstood stat and is often used incorrectly by people who don't understand roster construction. Like our DH was the worst in the AL last year. The Blue Jays as an example created 55 runs (wRC) with their DH's (.816 OPS slightly lower then Schwabber splits). We created 14. For those against bringing in someone like Schwabber show me another position on the club where we can improve our wRC by 41 for 5.5M. If Eloy needs to be moved later to DH why are we pretending Schwabber would prevent that? He just was non-tendered why would anyone believe that he is somehow going to paid both in term and in money in a way that would block Eloy? Also Eloy is making serious money so lets make sure that he can't play the field before he moves to a fulltime DH. We can improve it just as much, or more, with $500k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, KrankinSox said: I understand the luxury that a more passable OF provides in terms of lineup flexibility, but we are talking about the DH spot. You want the best hitter. Leury and Engel provide defensive OF depth. If the Sox sign or trade for an everyday RF, let's just say Joc, then who do you propose we use at DH (taking Vaughn out of the equation)? Which specific FAs do you prefer to DH instead of Schwarber? I'm not saying he should be option #1, but he should be considered. How can you take Vaughn out of the equation? If you have Vaughn, Abreu and Eloy already, you want someone who can do something beyond DH. Not that complicated. I'd go with JBJ and Dahl if Springer is out of the equation. Then you'd have a guy in Dahl you could plug in for any of the outfielders in event of injury, or Abreu via Vaughn, or Vaughn. Edited December 3, 2020 by Vulture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxBlanco Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: We can improve it just as much, or more, with $500k. Yeah, I want Vaughn up as quickly as possible. Secure that extra year and get him up. After looking at the Springer vs Joc/Engel platoon stats, we could improve our lineup a lot with minimal spending just by replacing EE with Vaughn and Mazara with Joc/Engel. Then we’d have a lot of flexibility to attack starting pitching either now, at the trade deadline, or next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said: Okay but he would have been traded then He at best will lget a similar offer Not necessarily. I don't think we're the only ones who would prefer signing a free agent to giving up assets in addition to only getting one year of control for said assets. I'd bet he gets a three year deal at close to ten million per. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Vulture said: Not necessarily. I don't think we're the only ones who would prefer signing a free agent to giving up assets in addition to only getting one year of control for said assets. I'd bet he gets a three year deal at close to ten million per. Almost all of these guys will sign one year deals. They are looking to have a big year and reset their values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Vulture said: Not necessarily. I don't think we're the only ones who would prefer signing a free agent to giving up assets in addition to only getting one year of control for said assets. I'd bet he gets a three year deal at close to ten million per. That doesn't make sense and if they traded for him they still could have worked out an extension if they wanted only with much more leverage. Edited December 3, 2020 by wrathofhahn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrankinSox Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 10 minutes ago, Vulture said: How can you take Vaughn out of the equation? If you have Vaughn, Abreu and Eloy already, you want someone who can do something beyond DH. Not that complicated. I'd go with JBJ and Dahl if Springer is out of the equation. Then you'd have a guy in Dahl you could plug in for any of the outfielders in event of injury, or Abreu via Vaughn, or Vaughn. You want JBJ or David Dahl at DH? Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Almost all of these guys will sign one year deals. They are looking to have a big year and reset their values. Could be, unless a team like the Yankees overlooks his 2020 performance. Still wouldn't be my choice on a one year budget deal when we have Vaughn and Eloy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 1 minute ago, wrathofhahn said: That doesn't make sense and if they traded for him they still could have worked out an extension if they wanted only with much more leverage. How would that give them leverage? I don't think he'd be in QO territory, although I could be mistaken. You're overlooking the giving up assets portion of the argument as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, KrankinSox said: You want JBJ or David Dahl at DH? Ok. JBJ in RF and Vaughn at DH with Dahl as fourth OFer, DH and in effect backup 1B with Vaughn playing for Abreu in event of injury or regular days off. Edited December 3, 2020 by Vulture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 44 minutes ago, Vulture said: Was he? That's not the way I remember it I didn't remember it either...but Baseball Reference lists his DWAR as -11 for his career and at 9 years of -1 DWAR. Other measures I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrankinSox Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, Vulture said: JBJ in RF and Vaughn at DH with Dahl as fourth OFer, DH and in effect backup 1B with Vaughn playing for Abreu in event of injury or regular days off. Your scenario assumes Vaughn takes the DH role and runs with it, which would be great. What if he struggles? Then your playoff DH is David Dahl? I'd rather have Schwarber. I'm talking about filling the DH role, not filling a 4th OF role with Dahl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, KrankinSox said: Your scenario assumes Vaughn takes the DH role and runs with it, which would be great. What if he struggles? Then your playoff DH is David Dahl? I'd rather have Schwarber. I'm talking about filling the DH role, not filling a 4th OF role with Dahl. Yeah I'd rather have Vaughn and Dahl for DH considering there is a good chance the Sox will need to cover injuries in the OF. I get you're saying cover dh, I'd prefer to cover both. If Vaughn succeeds, Schwarber is practically useless. Imagine Robert or RF goes down, and Vaughn is hitting. I don't want Eloy and Schwarber covering the corners. Also much more likely Dahl would be agreeable to that kind of role considering he has never had 400 abs in his career and presumably could be had at a fraction of the cost, allowing the extra money to be invested in pitching Edited December 3, 2020 by Vulture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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