Passan: Springer to White Sox not happening

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, fathom said:

Sox wanted Machado and didn’t think he really had a 300 million offer from Padres. 

Amazing the stuff you guys will by that is released by Bob Nightengale.

[fathom]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Amazing the stuff you guys will by that is released by Bob Nightengale.

Yep like Tony being an option?  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Yes, I don't know why some people on this board refuses to believe this. Sox wanted Machado, they tried to low ball him and Padres made a late push to get it done. That was a failed pursuit, and an embarrassment. But it doesn't take away that had Machado accepted at $250M, Sox would have been happy to have him. It wasn't some dog and pony show to show that they're willing to write a check for 9 figures.

No crap the Sox would have have been happy to pay him a contract 50 million under his market value and asking price; that was the entire point. They never intended on paying Machado because they knew they would not have to at that level. They spoke with his agent for THREE MONTHS. The demand was very clear. They were going to get the demand; the players at the top always do. This isn't rocket science.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm very much aware as to how Free Agency works.

I also know that agents don't call and say "another team has you beat on this final offer" when they don't. They certainly abuse the media in leaking erroneous reports - although they're not supposed to - but when it comes to direct agent conversation the requirements are laid out loud and clear. When you open up bidding they tell you where you need to get to in their eyes. You can negotiate if no one else is; that's not the case with big money players.

I literally have no idea what you're arguing. If you actually think the problem the Sox had with a 300 million dollar contract was their fear of overpaying him in the 12th year I have no idea what to tell you. The Sox knew what Manny wanted, what the PA wanted for Manny and Bryce, and they knew they were never going to go there. Hahn knew that so he thought he'd get cute - I'm guessing - to entice him off his demand. Anyone who plays at the top of the FA market knows the agent is not coming off his demand for a premium free agent.

And it apparently worked to convince fans like you that the Sox were ready to play at the big kids table, yet they've been in their seat for three years and all they have to show for it is a Jon Jay Pledge Pin.

Isn't this pretty much page 1 of the Boras playbook?  There are all kinds of stories of teams bidding against imagined offers, such as the Rangers bidding up the last 70 million on the Arod deal.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No crap the Sox would have have been happy to pay him a contract 50 million under his market value and asking price; that was the entire point. They never intended on paying Machado because they knew they would not have to at that level. They spoke with his agent for THREE MONTHS. The demand was very clear. They were going to get the demand; the players at the top always do. This isn't rocket science.

And where does Manny go if the Padres didn’t offer that?

[Y2Jimmy0]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm very much aware as to how Free Agency works.

I also know that agents don't call and say "another team has you beat on this final offer" when they don't. They certainly abuse the media in leaking erroneous reports - although they're not supposed to - but when it comes to direct agent conversation the requirements are laid out loud and clear. When you open up bidding they tell you where you need to get to in their eyes. You can negotiate if no one else is; that's not the case with big money players.

I literally have no idea what you're arguing. If you actually think the problem the Sox had with a 300 million dollar contract was their fear of overpaying him in the 12th year I have no idea what to tell you. The Sox knew what Manny wanted, what the PA wanted for Manny and Bryce, and they knew they were never going to go there. Hahn knew that so he thought he'd get cute - I'm guessing - to entice him off his demand. Anyone who plays at the top of the FA market knows the agent is not coming off his demand for a premium free agent.

And it apparently worked to convince fans like you that the Sox were ready to play at the big kids table, yet they've been in their seat for three years and all they have to show for it is a Jon Jay Pledge Pin.

This one was a bit different. A typical Jerry Reinsdorf production. Sox 8/250 offer was highest for a long time. Machado wanted $300 million. JR wouldn’t ok the deal. Hahn knew they were toast the night before Machado took SD offer. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

This isn’t the case. Hahn negotiated a deal with the agent. 5/125. Sox have stellar reputation with that agent. Agent told Hahn he needed to check with Wheeler but that they likely had a deal. At that point, Wheeler instructed his agent to find something similar on east coast. This is why it was reported as Sox having higher offer. Sox weren’t trying to appease fan base. The agent was trying to save face with Sox going forward. 

And his agent didn't know that his client wanted and would seek out a similar offer on the East Coast once the Sox set the market?

His agent knew what Wheeler wanted going into negotiations, and if that is how it went the agent was simply playing the White Sox to set the market to get another team he preferred to play for to match.

Where I agree with you is the Sox very likely would not know that part of it, so it certainly adds a genuineness to their offer.

[Y2Jimmy0]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

And his agent didn't know that his client wanted and would seek out a similar offer on the East Coast once the Sox set the market?

His agent knew what Wheeler wanted going into negotiations, and if that is how it went the agent was simply playing the White Sox to set the market to get another team he preferred to play for to match.

Where I agree with you is the Sox very likely would not know that part of it, so it certainly adds a genuineness to their offer.

Nah. The agent didn’t use the Sox in this case. Machado they absolutely did though. 

[SonofaRoache]

6 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

This isn’t the case. Hahn negotiated a deal with the agent. 5/125. Sox have stellar reputation with that agent. Agent told Hahn he needed to check with Wheeler but that they likely had a deal. At that point, Wheeler instructed his agent to find something similar on east coast. This is why it was reported as Sox having higher offer. Sox weren’t trying to appease fan base. The agent was trying to save face with Sox going forward. 

Yep this is definitely what happened with Wheeler. I wouldn't be surprised if Wheeler told his agent to find a NL team over AL. And used location to not sound like a pansy. 

[thxfrthmmrs]

40 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, and the premise is sustained by the fact that he never has.

Offering contracts that aren't going to be signed isn't offering a contract by any means. I could offer Machado 240 million to play for my local travel team but it wouldn't mean I was actually ever at risk of paying that contract.

No team knew more about what Machado wanted; no team negotiated longer with Machado. The Sox knew exactly what they were doing with Machado and the incentive laden contract.

 

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No crap the Sox would have have been happy to pay him a contract 50 million under his market value and asking price; that was the entire point. They never intended on paying Machado because they knew they would not have to at that level. They spoke with his agent for THREE MONTHS. The demand was very clear. They were going to get the demand; the players at the top always do. This isn't rocket science.

Talk about arguing out of both sides of your mouth here. On one hand, you are suggesting Sox only make offers they know they don't have to pay, on the other, you're saying it's a contract, a 9 figure one, Sox would have love to pay. So which one is it.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Isn't this pretty much page 1 of the Boras playbook?  There are all kinds of stories of teams bidding against imagined offers, such as the Rangers bidding up the last 70 million on the Arod deal.

No, that would be negotiating in bad faith.

These days agents use the media to put out erroneous reports, just as teams do, but in direct communication you're not saying team A has made a formal offer here, match or we're going there. You don't do it for a couple reasons:

1. If that team scoffs and moves on to sign someone else, you've cost your client a potential suitor and if you sign for less now that team does not trust you in negotiations.

2. If it comes out you had a higher offer and played chicken and cost your player millions, other issues can arise from that.

What agents like Boras do, as I understand it, is they "set a market" and say things like other teams aren't scoffing at the price. There is no proclamation of a formal offer, there is merely a price you are supposed to get. The Rangers also just got bent over and taken advantage of by a guy (Boras) who set his clients market so far above what anyone else was willing to pay but he sold it to one buyer, which was all it took.

[Jack Parkman]

14 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Yes, I don't know why some people on this board refuses to believe this. Sox wanted Machado, they tried to low ball him and Padres made a late push to get it done. That was a failed pursuit, and an embarrassment. But it doesn't take away that had Machado accepted at $250M, Sox would have been happy to have him. It wasn't some dog and pony show to show that they're willing to write a check for 9 figures.

You are so naive. 

Bruuuuuuuce was telling us they were at 7/175 for however long. That offer was a joke. San Diego goes to $300M. 

Sox offer the $250M and insult the fanbase's intelligence saying that they think it's a better offer. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[thxfrthmmrs]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

You are so naive. 

Naive to think Sox wanted Machado at $250M? I could have point to the countless dumb shit you have posted on this site as naive in a negative way, but I wouldn't have time for that.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

 

Talk about arguing out of both sides of your mouth here. On one hand, you are suggesting Sox only make offers they know they don't have to pay, on the other, you're saying it's a contract, a 9 figure one, Sox would have love to pay. So which one is it.

Any business man is happy to pay an asset 50 million dollars under market value.

I can't afford a 10 million dollar home, but if I found one on the market for five million I'd find a way to acquire enough capital to purchase the home.

The true testament of being willing to make a purchase in the premium aisle is whether you're willing to pay market value. In the case of baseball and elite FA's that means you have to be willing to pay above and beyond what you may feel the market is. You don't have to outbid the avarege team, you have to outbid them all.

Again, sitting here and arguing that the White Sox were serious about Machado completely ignores the fact that they never ever made a serious offer.

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Any business man is happy to pay an asset 50 million dollars under market value.

I can't afford a 10 million dollar home, but if I found one on the market for five million I'd find a way to acquire enough capital to purchase the home.

The true testament of being willing to make a purchase in the premium aisle is whether you're willing to pay market value. In the case of baseball and elite FA's that means you have to be willing to pay above and beyond what you may feel the market is. You don't have to outbid the avarege team, you have to outbid them all.

Again, sitting here and arguing that the White Sox were serious about Machado completely ignores the fact that they never ever made a serious offer.

Bingo. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

And I know for a fact that Scott Boras has lost clients playing chicken, but his version involved a market demand which he refused to move off of which caused potential suitors to move on from his client.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Naive to think Sox wanted Machado at $250M? I could have point to the countless dumb shit you have posted on this site as naive in a negative way, but I wouldn't have time for that.

Yeah, because I don't think they had any intention of going over the 7/175 that Bruuuce was reporting. Manny was never going to sign that. 

[fathom]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Yeah, because I don't think they had any intention of going over the 7/175 that Bruuuce was reporting. Manny was never going to sign that. 

James literally just said 8/250

[Thad Bosley]

Sigh...wouldn’t it be nice if the next owner of the Sox has Steve Cohen kind of money so we can all get out from under these never-ending discussions about Reinsdorf’s reticence to spend the big bucks?  40 years of reading about and listening to this crap with this guy.  

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

You are so naive. 

Bruuuuuuuce was telling us they were at 7/175 for however long. That offer was a joke. San Diego goes to $300M. 

Sox offer the $250M and insult the fanbase's intelligence saying that they think it's a better offer. 

IIRC wasn't the offer like 8/250?  So the Sox were claiming that there's was a better offer based on AAV?  And maybe some options at the end?  Been a while.

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

IIRC wasn't the offer like 8/250?  So the Sox were claiming that there's was a better offer based on AAV?  And maybe some options at the end?  Been a while.

Supposedly there were some options at the end but they were monopoly money vesting options that were unlikely to be reached by anyone. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Nah. The agent didn’t use the Sox in this case. Machado they absolutely did though. 

Yeah, I think the Wheeler thing was likely a bad break; the only what I could turn that into a conspiracy would be if the Sox knew beforehand that he had no interest in Chicago and wasted resources to pursue it anyway - which seems near impossible.

With Manny, after the Sox entire "at the table PR campaign," and their "shocked eyes" nonsense, it became pretty clear to me that this was all a play to show the Sox were big boys. They used their resources on something they were never genuine about just to get the PR. All PR is good PR in the world of Jerry Reinsdorf.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Supposedly there were some options at the end but they were monopoly money vesting options that were unlikely to be reached by anyone. 

The point is they were never saying that 250>300, they were saying 31.25>30 and that it could have also been potentially worth more than 300 million if those options were hit.

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, fathom said:

James literally just said 8/250

Dude. I think the Machado and Wheeler offers were very real. 

I also think that the Sox already knew that there was a zero percent chance that the player accepted at the time they made them. It was 100% a PR ploy with the fanbase to not let them know how cheap they really were. 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The point is they were never saying that 250>300, they were saying 31.25>30 and that it could have also been potentially worth more than 300 million if those options were hit.

Guaranteed money is guaranteed money dude. 

 

I'm tired of litigating whether or not Jerry is weird when it comes to player contracts every time I post on this board. 

Do I believe Jerry spends? Yeah. He prefers to spread it around rather than on top of the market guys, regardless of the fact that spending it on top of the market guys might be a more efficient use of the money. That's his choice. He's the owner, and there's nothing I can do about it. 

If you guys want to believe fairy tales, that's your choice. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Jack Parkman