Passan: Springer to White Sox not happening

[SonofaRoache]

1 minute ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

My understanding was they had the 250 for a long time and a big lead and thought they had him... Probably until the day before when the Padres found out how low the offer was.

Why would the Sox go from an offer that pays 175 million to one that could pay 320 million without thinking another team offered 300 million at some point? 

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

This is last post I would make on this, because this nonsense is derailing the thread. But at first you said Sox wouldn't pay anyone 9 figure, then it was if they could have Manny at 8/$250M then they would have been happy to. And you haven't answered on why Sox spent $14M and a prospect on his buddies if they just wanted to make a college try at the pursuit. I don't know why any professional organizations would to be honest. Reputations with agents and players actually mean something in the real world. But you can keep carry on with your conspiracy theories to help you cope with your frustration at this organization.

Based on the info in this thread, I think Jerry would have gone to 9 figures if we weren't in a raging pandemic that makes gate revenue impossible. 

As of now, I don't think he's willing to go to 9 until he makes up whatever paper losses he has from 2020 and 2021. Jerry is very risk averse, and I get it. It's his team, his choice. 

 

 

[thxfrthmmrs]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Point me where I said the Sox made a "fake" offer to Machado.

 

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, and the premise is sustained by the fact that he never has.

Offering contracts that aren't going to be signed isn't offering a contract by any means. I could offer Machado 240 million to play for my local travel team but it wouldn't mean I was actually ever at risk of paying that contract.

No team knew more about what Machado wanted; no team negotiated longer with Machado. The Sox knew exactly what they were doing with Machado and the incentive laden contract.

 

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I now have my doubts. Wouldn't shock me if his agent didn't say Zack isn't all in, you'd have to blow him away. Sox proceed to offer 2 million more than their initial offer.

At this point, after countless lies about landing a huge fish multiple off seasons in a row , the sox have turned me into a white sox conspiracy theorists. After all, conspiracies are bred from distrust caused by a lack of integrity. White Sox baseball operations 101.

 

59 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

If you know there's zero chance he signs at that level, which is quite obvious as someone who wasn't even involved in the negotiations, then it was absolutely for show.

What else do you want to see?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

This is last post I would make on this, because this nonsense is derailing the thread. But at first you said Sox wouldn't pay anyone 9 figure, then it was if they could have Manny at 8/$250M then they would have been happy to. And you haven't answered on why Sox spent $14M and a prospect on his buddies if they just wanted to make a college try at the pursuit. I don't know why any professional organizations would to be honest. Reputations with agents and players actually mean something in the real world. But you can keep carry on with your conspiracy theories to help you cope with your frustration at this organization.

I explained exactly why the General Manager tried to do that, I even explained what his intentions may have been and even covered the possibility that they were simply naive because they never played at that level of free agency before.

The General Manager trying to do that, all while not meeting the demand from the agent that is always met at the top of FA markets, is literally the best evidence we have that the Sox were never making a legit offer for Machado that was required to sign him; in other words, an offer that would outbid all other potential suitors.

Machado's agent is the biggest dead beat in professional sports. Discussing reputations while citing Dan Lazano just proves that you are trying to generalize a topic that is incredibly specified to certain individuals - the elite Free Agents and a douche bag like Dan Lazano. The price was 300 million; take it or leave it. We're not looking for friendship benefits.

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Why would the Sox go from an offer that pays 175 million to one that could pay 320 million without thinking another team offered 300 million at some point? 

Hmmmmm

[thxfrthmmrs]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Based on the info in this thread, I think Jerry would have gone to 9 figures if we weren't in a raging pandemic that makes gate revenue impossible. 

As of now, I don't think he's willing to go to 9 until he makes up whatever paper losses he has from 2020 and 2021. Jerry is very risk averse, and I get it. It's his team, his choice. 

 

 

I agree with this Jack.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, thxfrthmmrs said:

 

 

 

What else do you want to see?

So yes, the offer was never legit and never intended to sign the player who told them from day one that his price was 300 million. I honestly have no idea what you can't grasp. I'll bow out though; have a good one.

[Jack Parkman]

5 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

I agree with this Jack.

I'm surprised that the 125M offer to Wheeler was legit. In normal times, that would be very good news. The Sox are going to have to get creative in order to finish off this rebuild now. 

Like I said, I don't think Jerry is cheap, but I'm annoyed how he hires 3 players that do less combined than one player at the same price. That will never make sense to me. He likes to spread the money around. $25M is $25M whether it's spent on 3 players or one. That I'll never understand. 

For example, he could end up paying, this year, Pederson and Schwarber a couple million less than Springer and get a much worse result. I'll never understand that.  

Jerry has had top 5 payrolls in baseball before so accusing him of being cheap is dumb. I just disagree with his philosophy in a couple places. Free Agency is one of them. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[YourWhatHurts]

18 minutes ago, aeichhor said:

 

Of course, the mystery deal is almost done ... until it falls apart at the last minute of course.  Then we get the details, after the guy signed with another team/the trade failed to go through.

[YourWhatHurts]

12 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Based on the info in this thread, I think Jerry would have gone to 9 figures if we weren't in a raging pandemic that makes gate revenue impossible. 

As of now, I don't think he's willing to go to 9 until he makes up whatever paper losses he has from 2020 and 2021. Jerry is very risk averse, and I get it. It's his team, his choice. 

 

 

"his team" sure

Someone should pull the leech off the body and stomp it

[thxfrthmmrs]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

So yes, the offer was never legit and never intended to sign the player who told them from day one that his price was 300 million. I honestly have no idea what you can't grasp. I'll bow out though; have a good one.

My point since the very first post wasn't if they were willing to pay Manny $300M, I knew they weren't. My point was whether they're willing to pay to top level free agent a 9 figure contract, and 9 figures may be all it takes to land Springer.

Rumored offer for Manny: 8/$250M. Signed 10/$300M.

Rumored offer for Wheeler: 5/$125M. Signed 5/$118M

Speculated contract for Springer: 4/$100M - 5/$125M.

I don't know how many clearer I have to draw this out that Springer commands a figure that is almost the same as the Wheeler deal and Sox would have been willing to pay and outbid others for (if they value Springer the same as Wheeler). It's completely different than the Manny saga. Had we not been hit with a pandemic, I see Springer as a possibility.

[Jack Parkman]

35 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

"his team" sure

Someone should pull the leech off the body and stomp it

Dude, it does us no good to b**** about it constantly. 

I just wish the rest of the board didn't entertain pipedreams.

The whole argument comes from certain people who get  promised a PS5 for Christmas and get a PS3 instead, and are given the excuse that mom and dad didn't know the difference. Then mom and dad make that mistake year after year, when little Johnny is on Santa's good list.(read: the Sox are attempting to compete) 

We just need to accept who is a realistic target and who isn't based on Jerry's criteria and we can have a rational discussion. I really think discussing Springer and Bauer is nothing other than mental masturbation. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

12 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Dude, it does us no good to b**** about it constantly. 

I just wish the rest of the board didn't entertain pipedreams.

The whole argument comes from certain people who get  promised a PS5 for Christmas and get a PS3 instead, and are given the excuse that mom and dad didn't know the difference. Then mom and dad make that mistake year after year, when little Johnny is on Santa's good list.(read: the Sox are attempting to compete) 

We just need to accept who is a realistic target and who isn't based on Jerry's criteria and we can have a rational discussion. I really think discussing Springer and Bauer is nothing other than mental masturbation. 

You're right.. Lets just talk about signing mid-tier and scrub guys.  That always makes for fun conversation

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

You're right.. Lets just talk about signing mid-tier and scrub guys.  That always makes for fun conversation

We have to realize that we should be excited when they sign someone that isn't in the bargain bin. 

 

[Springfield Soxfan]

We sure like killing ourselves by a thousand cuts with all of these rehashes of the Machado contract situation and Tatis trade.  Call me crazy but one positive of the LaRussa hire is that I think JR will spend money.  Call me naive....

[scs787]

Never thought Springer was necessary anyway. I know you can never have enough offense but this team offensively is already really really good. 

The jump from Edwin to Vaughn and Mazara to lets say Joc should be more than enough. Robert should be more consistent. Moncada should be healthier. You should get more out of Madrigal. 

Take whatever the difference between Springer and Joc is money wise and add that to your offer for Bauer. 

[Vulture]

1 hour ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

What else do you want to see?

You're beating your head against a wall man. Facts, consistency or logic don't apply in this case. Never have, never will. You could provide an absolute mathematical proof and it would be denied.

[RagahRagah]

3 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

I do think we wanted Manny, just at that lowball 7 year and 175 million dollar offer. Once the stakes raised, I think they wanted to be outbid, and creatively found a way to do so without looking like fools for signing his brother in law and friend. 

When you "want" something you know you can't get then you really aren't trying.

Either they knew they wouldn't get Manny at that price or they're stupid. Take your pick. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by RagahRagah

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 hours ago, fathom said:

Believe me, I don’t want him back.  I’m still not sure how he ever gets a righty hitter out

Really why not ? He's a 2 pitch pitcher now using his best 2 pitches with great movement and has been one of the few consistent relief pitchers around. He's not sexy but his 2020 stats were extremely good. He was among the 3 relievers nominated for  Mariano Rivera AL Reliever of the Year which Hendriks won. I wouldn't want him either at $14M but many seem to think he'll go for less than what the Sox paid him last year. Not sure if that will come to pass. Those 2 pitches have above average movement and he induces a lot of weak contact. A good cutter is an awesome pitch. It got Rivera to the Hall of Fame.

[fathom]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Really why not ? He's a 2 pitch pitcher now using his best 2 pitches with great movement and has been one of the few consistent relief pitchers around. He's not sexy but his 2020 stats were extremely good. He was among the 3 relievers nominated for  Mariano Rivera AL Reliever of the Year which Hendriks won. I wouldn't want him either at $14M but many seem to think he'll go for less than what the Sox paid him last year. Not sure if that will come to pass. Those 2 pitches have above average movement and he induces a lot of weak contact. A good cutter is an awesome pitch. It got Rivera to the Hall of Fame.

His cutters to lefty is dynamite. To righties he had a much harder time commanding it and ending up throwing a lot of hangers.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, fathom said:

His cutters to lefty is dynamite. To righties he had a much harder time commanding it and ending up throwing a lot of hangers.

if he threw a lot of hangers they weren't hit well judging by his all stats both old school and new school . I think he's severely under rated because he doesn't K guys enough.

From Brooks Baseball : His cutter is a real worm killer that generates an extreme number of groundballs compared to other pitchers' cutters, generates a high number of swings & misses compared to other pitchers' cutters, has slightly above average velo, has some natural sink and has strong cutting action. His fourseam fastball is a real worm killer that generates an extreme number of ground balls compared to other pitchers' fourseamers, has much less armside movement than typical and has slightly above average velo.

Looks like the 4 seamer is the pitch that would be less trouble to righties since there's less arm side movement. I suppose one could track which pitches ended up in the middle of the zone more often. Looks like he used his 4 seamer 10% more and his cutter 10% less in 2020 compared to 2019 and his WHIP and ERA and FIP all showed better results but could've regressed in a longer season but we have to take what we got.

BAA the 4 seem to righties was .200 in 2020 , .261in 2019 . BAA on the cutter was .222 in 2020 , .174 in 2019.

Slugging against righties:  .200 in 2020 , .261 in 2019 against the 4 seam. .333 in 2020 and .316 against the cutter in 2019

in 2020 Linedrives on BIP looks like it was the fastball and not the cutters to RHH that generated the much high linedrives . I think the number used there is a percentage and it says 50 so that seems high but on the cutter it was 27.7. There's more to look at there but I think this is enough. 50 was the highest he's ever been in his career but no one hit him really hard.

Just one more. Flyballs on balls in play in 2020 looks like it's 0 % on the 4seamer Against RHH so those line drives weren't being lifted and 15.15 on the cutter.

Edited December 8, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[fathom]

Good stuff Cali. Would love to know the location of the cutters to righties and lefties.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, fathom said:

Good stuff Cali. Would love to know the location of the cutters to righties and lefties.

Brooks Baseball might have that stuff under scatter charts . I'm no expert on everything they have to offer but u can check it out.

[fathom]

Not letting me link it but Buster said he’s very confident Springer to Mets will eventually happen

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

So does he get the right to claim 1st? Hahaha