Sox acquire Lance Lynn for Dane Dunning and Avery Weems

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

Yep... those are the places with a $15 minimum wage.  Sorry...couldn't resist.

I doubt it, it's the Gold Coast Dogs at Union Station. Those guys work their asses off. They deserve more than $15 an hour. 

[bmags]

Fun thing I learned about the chicago pizza puff is the place that originated it was a tamale place which is why it is wrapped in a tortilla.

Was a rude awakening when I had a pizza puff in college that was just a calzone. 

Was wild when I realized that giardinara, pizza puffs and italian beef were regional. Obviously thought they were the entire world.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

36 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

100%. Read that “joke” and recoiled.

Too sensitive . I took it as meaning if the minimum wage guys are making $15 an hr. imagine what everyone else makes and that's why it's expensive. More like a it's a ritzy restaurant  rather than punching down at minimum wage workers.

[Harry Chappas]

Damenzo's pizza puff (Taylor and Western) takes pizza puff to a whole new level

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I doubt it, it's the Gold Coast Dogs at Union Station. Those guys work their asses off. They deserve more than $15 an hour. 

Dude, they do the best bacon cheeseburger around.  Melted liquid cheddar cheese so it gets down into the gaps of the hamburger paddy. and almost infuses itself into the burger as it cooks instead of a melted slice of cheese sitting on top.

[almagest]

I can second the Gold Coast Dogs at Union being great. During normal times I work in the building above it and head down for lunch probably too often.

[bmags]

48 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Dude, they do the best bacon cheeseburger around.  Melted liquid cheddar cheese so it gets down into the gaps of the hamburger paddy. and almost infuses itself into the burger as it cooks instead of a melted slice of cheese sitting on top.

this conversation is making me tear up. Desperate yearning for my lunch places.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, bmags said:

this conversation is making me tear up. Desperate yearning for my lunch places.

I made lunch early because I was starving after this thread.  Definitely not a Gold Coast burger tho

[Bob Sacamano]

9 minutes ago, bmags said:

this conversation is making me tear up. Desperate yearning for my lunch places.

Seconded. This is making me miss going downtown for work every day lol

Edited December 9, 2020 by manbearpuig

[RagahRagah]

Anyone else have Nicky's food before? Best damn hot dog and fries I've ever had still to this day.

[Chisoxmb35]

6 hours ago, poppysox said:

Do you really believe half the crap you say?  Punch down at minimum wage workers...get a life.

He's right though. 

[Chisoxmb35]

6 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

100%. Read that “joke” and recoiled.

Same. Good forbid someone make a livable wage for providing/doing a service and someone(s) else not be offended that said people make a livable wage.

[poppysox]

18 minutes ago, Chisoxmb35 said:

Same. Good forbid someone make a livable wage for providing/doing a service and someone(s) else not be offended that said people make a livable wage.

Most people can understand that the minimum wage was not intended as a livable wage.  It is intended for people to enter the workforce or supplement retirement income.  The law of supply and demand forces employers to increase wages when they can't fill their positions with competent people for what they want to pay.  When politicians use the minimum wage to pretend a deep concern for the working class they force employers to layoff part of the workforce and raise prices for their customers.  Nothing kind or caring about it.   Lastly, do you really think a dollar spent in NY or LA goes as far as one spent in rural America?  The minimum wage should be set by State and Local governments, not at a Federal level.

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Most people can understand that the minimum wage was not intended as a livable wage.  It is intended for people to enter the workforce or supplement retirement income.  The law of supply and demand forces employers to increase wages when they can't fill their positions with competent people for what they want to pay.  When politicians use the minimum wage to pretend a deep concern for the working class they force employers to layoff part of the workforce and raise prices for their customers.  Nothing kind or caring about it.   Lastly, do you really think a dollar spent in NY or LA goes as far as one spent in rural America?  The minimum wage should be set by State and Local governments, not at a Federal level.

And interestingly, right now only 40% of those paid minimum wage and 50% of those paid below minimum wage (restaurant workers/tipped workers) are over the age of 25, and under 3% are 65 and over. But you didn't actually have any interest in whether or not half of the group you were discussing actually fits into your stereotype, you just needed to hit them because you needed to hit someone down because you could.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm

[oneofthemikes]

Baseball, am I right?

[poppysox]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

And interestingly, right now only 40% of those paid minimum wage and 50% of those paid below minimum wage (restaurant workers/tipped workers) are over the age of 25, and under 3% are 65 and over. But you didn't actually have any interest in whether or not half of the group you were discussing actually fits into your stereotype, you just needed to hit them because you needed to hit someone down because you could.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm

Interestingly, after I retired and stayed home for a little over a year...I went to work at a big box store earning the minimum wage.  I worked alongside a man who had owned 3 McDonald franchises in Chicago before retiring.  Neither of us needed to work but enjoy work.  Both of us had hired more than our share of minimum wage workers and in both of our cases promoted many of them to management positions over the years.  Your take that I somehow am against the little guy is both offensive and wrong.  I had many employees over the years and you would be hard-pressed to find one who viewed me through your jaded eyes.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

29 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Most people can understand that the minimum wage was not intended as a livable wage.  It is intended for people to enter the workforce or supplement retirement income.  The law of supply and demand forces employers to increase wages when they can't fill their positions with competent people for what they want to pay.  When politicians use the minimum wage to pretend a deep concern for the working class they force employers to layoff part of the workforce and raise prices for their customers.  Nothing kind or caring about it.   Lastly, do you really think a dollar spent in NY or LA goes as far as one spent in rural America?  The minimum wage should be set by State and Local governments, not at a Federal level.

You literally have no clue what you're talking about.

[poppysox]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You literally have no clue what you're talking about.

Thanks for your cheap opinion.  I'll give it the consideration it deserves.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, poppysox said:

Thanks for your cheap opinion.  I'll give it the consideration it deserves.  

I'm not gonna waste time in a sports thread humiliating someone who has no idea how wages have been effectively exploited for over 40 years by a very select few in this country, and how wages are actually set... all I'll say is what you said is 100% categorically false.

[wegner]

7 hours ago, bmags said:

Fun thing I learned about the chicago pizza puff is the place that originated it was a tamale place which is why it is wrapped in a tortilla.

Was a rude awakening when I had a pizza puff in college that was just a calzone. 

Was wild when I realized that giardinara, pizza puffs and italian beef were regional. Obviously thought they were the entire world.

A friend of mine went to school in Germany for a semester...he was discussing food with some students from the East Coast and he mentioned missing an Italian Beef and they said "oh like Arbys"...he was mortified.

[Balta1701]

I don't want to take the dog out yet, it's snowing, and lab work for day is done, so here's a rant. 

As Lynn has 1 year left on his contract, this is by definition a "Win-now" deal. What does it take for a "win now" deal to become a true "Rick Hahn Special"? There are 4 failures together that make up the full Rick Hahn Special meal. 

1. The entree, the big one. Not understanding your own team well enough. If you have a 70 win team by talent, and you make trades to win-now, you will wind up winning a few over 70 games and wondering what happened. This was the 2015 and 2016 White Sox, they convinced themselves they were way better than they actually were. Hopefully, in 2021, this is one the White Sox will not have to deal with, but hey with their managing decisions anything's possible.

2. Failure to scout the player you're acquiring appropriately. Jeff Samardzija was coming off a career year, the White Sox convinced themselves that him and Sale were 2 aces, when Samardzija in a normal year was a 2-3 win pitcher and a #3/#4 starter on a good rotation. 

Could the White Sox have misscouted Lynn? Over his career, he was a 2.5-3.5 win pitcher consistently until 2019-2020, when he suddenly turned into a 6 win pitcher. Could he have done a "Charlie Morton" with his career? Absolutely. But is it also possible the White Sox just traded for a 2 win pitcher? That would be consistent with the rest of his career, and the advanced stats do show that he was somewhat lucky in 2020 and over a longer season there was a good chance he'd drop off somewhat. 

As a corollary under this one - failing to take into account that the guy you're acquiring does have a salary. If the White Sox only had $30 million to spend this offseason, and they both sent out a player and took on payroll in the process, they've done more damage. This was part of the problem with deals like Samardzija, Colome, and Mazara, that even though we were getting players back, in the process we added to the payroll and those costs have to be paid too.

3. Failure to understand the players being given up/giving up way too much. The White Sox historically have been awful at this. Dunning has some issues - he probably won't throw 150 innings next year, he's coming off injury, etc. But, could Dunning be a really good pitcher a few years from now? Certainly possible. This one is the "oops I traded away Semien and he became really good, oops I traded a shortstop to San Diego and I'm not going to write that player's name" line. 

4. Lack of depth in your system. If you trade a guy away, and as a consequence you leave a gaping position hole that you now need to fill, you have filled one hole while opening another. But if you have depth, you can get around those moves. If Stiever has a good year at AAA next year and he's a top 75 prospect looking at a rotation spot in 2022, we're not going to be all that mad at losing Dunning even if Dunning outpitches him, because we'll still have a cheap rotation piece ready to step in. He's then followed by Kelly, Thompson, and perhaps others. If there's 3 or 4 guys available in coming years, even before the next drafts, then the sting of losing Dunning isn't as big. 

If a deal hits 2 of these failures, there might be some criticism about it, but in the end it's probably a good move. For example, the Chapman for Torres and Miller for Frazier deals in 2016. In both cases, the Indians and Cubs gave up someone that it has turned out their system could not cover, and they gave up a very high price to do so. However, their teams were ready to compete, and they got players that did what they were supposed to - they rode those arms hard all the way to game 7 of the world series. Some people criticize those teams for those moves, but the teams were ready and they got really good relievers for those prices. 

Rick Hahn has especially impressed in this in that he has pulled off the Rick Hahn Special - doing a deal that hits all 4 of these failures - more than once, and did so in the space of 18 months. Since the goal of a GM is to basically do 0 of them, or at most 1 of them - failing on all 4 is really impressive and shouldn't happen often. For a GM to have multiple ones in 2 years, well he deserves to have the platter named for him. Plus, he has other deals that hit 3 of these failures - the Frazier deal hits #1, #2, and #4 - the players we gave up didn't turn into much, but still left a 70 win team with underperforming players and even less system depth.

 

If Hahn hits only 2 of those failures with this deal, that would be tolerable with me (and a noted improvement on his record). If Dunning was a 5 win pitcher long term and Lynn was a 2 win pitcher next year, but the White Sox won 97 games and the year after that Stiever steps into the rotation, we can be annoyed with the scouting but that piece helped the team win games and compete. If some of the depth doesn't pan out and we really wish we had Dunning back, but Lynn is a 5 win pitcher on a 98 win roster - then we paid a high price, but we had our shot for that year. One hopes that this deal doesn't wind up hitting 3 of those, but well...trust in a GM is earned, not given away.

[wegner]

This offense should be good enough to get them to the postseason especially if it is again an expanded playoffs so does it come down to the following....is Lynn the guy you want on the mound for game 2 or 3 of a playoff series?

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't want to take the dog out yet, it's snowing, and lab work for day is done, so here's a rant. 

As Lynn has 1 year left on his contract, this is by definition a "Win-now" deal. What does it take for a "win now" deal to become a true "Rick Hahn Special"? There are 4 failures together that make up the full Rick Hahn Special meal. 

1. The entree, the big one. Not understanding your own team well enough. If you have a 70 win team by talent, and you make trades to win-now, you will wind up winning a few over 70 games and wondering what happened. This was the 2015 and 2016 White Sox, they convinced themselves they were way better than they actually were. Hopefully, in 2021, this is one the White Sox will not have to deal with, but hey with their managing decisions anything's possible.

2. Failure to scout the player you're acquiring appropriately. Jeff Samardzija was coming off a career year, the White Sox convinced themselves that him and Sale were 2 aces, when Samardzija in a normal year was a 2-3 win pitcher and a #3/#4 starter on a good rotation. 

Could the White Sox have misscouted Lynn? Over his career, he was a 2.5-3.5 win pitcher consistently until 2019-2020, when he suddenly turned into a 6 win pitcher. Could he have done a "Charlie Morton" with his career? Absolutely. But is it also possible the White Sox just traded for a 2 win pitcher? That would be consistent with the rest of his career, and the advanced stats do show that he was somewhat lucky in 2020 and over a longer season there was a good chance he'd drop off somewhat. 

As a corollary under this one - failing to take into account that the guy you're acquiring does have a salary. If the White Sox only had $30 million to spend this offseason, and they both sent out a player and took on payroll in the process, they've done more damage. This was part of the problem with deals like Samardzija, Colome, and Mazara, that even though we were getting players back, in the process we added to the payroll and those costs have to be paid too.

3. Failure to understand the players being given up/giving up way too much. The White Sox historically have been awful at this. Dunning has some issues - he probably won't throw 150 innings next year, he's coming off injury, etc. But, could Dunning be a really good pitcher a few years from now? Certainly possible. This one is the "oops I traded away Semien and he became really good, oops I traded a shortstop to San Diego and I'm not going to write that player's name" line. 

4. Lack of depth in your system. If you trade a guy away, and as a consequence you leave a gaping position hole that you now need to fill, you have filled one hole while opening another. But if you have depth, you can get around those moves. If Stiever has a good year at AAA next year and he's a top 75 prospect looking at a rotation spot in 2022, we're not going to be all that mad at losing Dunning even if Dunning outpitches him, because we'll still have a cheap rotation piece ready to step in. He's then followed by Kelly, Thompson, and perhaps others. If there's 3 or 4 guys available in coming years, even before the next drafts, then the sting of losing Dunning isn't as big. 

If a deal hits 2 of these failures, there might be some criticism about it, but in the end it's probably a good move. For example, the Chapman for Torres and Miller for Frazier deals in 2016. In both cases, the Indians and Cubs gave up someone that it has turned out their system could not cover, and they gave up a very high price to do so. However, their teams were ready to compete, and they got players that did what they were supposed to - they rode those arms hard all the way to game 7 of the world series. Some people criticize those teams for those moves, but the teams were ready and they got really good relievers for those prices. 

Rick Hahn has especially impressed in this in that he has pulled off the Rick Hahn Special - doing a deal that hits all 4 of these failures - more than once, and did so in the space of 18 months. Since the goal of a GM is to basically do 0 of them, or at most 1 of them - failing on all 4 is really impressive and shouldn't happen often. For a GM to have multiple ones in 2 years, well he deserves to have the platter named for him. Plus, he has other deals that hit 3 of these failures - the Frazier deal hits #1, #2, and #4 - the players we gave up didn't turn into much, but still left a 70 win team with underperforming players and even less system depth.

 

If Hahn hits only 2 of those failures with this deal, that would be tolerable with me (and a noted improvement on his record). If Dunning was a 5 win pitcher long term and Lynn was a 2 win pitcher next year, but the White Sox won 97 games and the year after that Stiever steps into the rotation, we can be annoyed with the scouting but that piece helped the team win games and compete. If some of the depth doesn't pan out and we really wish we had Dunning back, but Lynn is a 5 win pitcher on a 98 win roster - then we paid a high price, but we had our shot for that year. One hopes that this deal doesn't wind up hitting 3 of those, but well...trust in a GM is earned, not given away.

Man you must have a masters degree in negativity. I get that you don't like the 2020 Sporting News GM of the year...and you hate the White Sox as a general rule.  But come on man...this roster that Hahn has built is filled with budding stars at almost every position...they have a low payroll with room to upgrade and the future has never been brighter.  To this Hahn adds, by almost every measure, a top ten pitcher in all of baseball in exchange for a player dealt from an area of massive organizational strength...young pitchers...and of the dozen dynamic young arms Dunning was the oldest and with the least dazzling stuff.   From THIS data you manage to write a 10,000 word dissertation that Hahn sucks and this is likely to be a "hahn special" because...1) The team is over rated.  2) Lynn isn't very good because the last 300 innings where he earned 10 WAR are an illusion and we should probably also ignore the fact that in 9 years he's pitched 1500 innings with a FIP of 3.64 and nearly 3 WAR per year and instead focus on that horrible last game he pitched.   3) Dunning is AMAZING based on his 34 innings of 4 FIP at the major league level and will leave a "gaping" hole??  4) Cease, Kopech, Lopez, Kelly, Crochet, Stiever, Dahlquist, Thompson, lambert, Flores and Pinklington are trash are unlikely to fill the hole that Dunning's departure leaves.   This is just rantings.   Did Hahn run over your dog or something?    

 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Man you must have a masters degree in negativity. I get that you don't like the 2020 Sporting News GM of the year...and you hate the White Sox as a general rule.  But come on man...this roster that Hahn has built is filled with budding stars at almost every position...they have a low payroll with room to upgrade and the future has never been brighter.  To this Hahn adds, by almost every measure, a top ten pitcher in all of baseball in exchange for a player dealt from an area of massive organizational strength...young pitchers...and of the dozen dynamic young arms Dunning was the oldest and with the least dazzling stuff.   From THIS data you manage to write a 10,000 word dissertation that Hahn sucks and this is likely to be a "hahn special" because...1) The team is over rated.  2) Lynn isn't very good because the last 300 innings where he earned 10 WAR are an illusion and we should probably also ignore the fact that in 9 years he's pitched 1500 innings with a FIP of 3.64 and nearly 3 WAR per year and instead focus on that horrible last game he pitched.   3) Dunning is AMAZING based on his 34 innings of 4 FIP at the major league level and will leave a "gaping" hole??  4) Cease, Kopech, Lopez, Kelly, Crochet, Stiever, Dahlquist, Thompson, lambert, Flores and Pinklington are trash are unlikely to fill the hole that Dunning's departure leaves.   This is just rantings.   Did Hahn run over your dog or something?    

 

The Monkey just burned this dudes house down.

[SonofaRoache]