So let's talk about Quintana shall we

[bmags]

27 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

This trade sets them up to go in a bunch of different directions.  I like Paxton but I'm hoping for Richards. Either would make it an excellent rotation.  

Heard there's a lot of interest in Trevor Williams as the new pirates reclamation du jour. I don't think he has a lot to work with, but it is funny looking at his profile and seeing stuff like this:

His slider and curveball appear to be used the same way...

I just ...don't know what the pirates were doing. They at least tried to get away from his sinker this year, an awful pitch.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

39 minutes ago, bmags said:

Heard there's a lot of interest in Trevor Williams as the new pirates reclamation du jour. I don't think he has a lot to work with, but it is funny looking at his profile and seeing stuff like this:

His slider and curveball appear to be used the same way...

I just ...don't know what the pirates were doing. They at least tried to get away from his sinker this year, an awful pitch.

Williams has had a weird career arc.  I get the Pittsburgh reclamation guy idea and if they see something they think can be tinkered they should bring him in but just as a lottery ticket.  He can't be the guy they're counting on to plop in the back of the rotation and get quality innings from. 

[pcq]

11 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

Most white sox fans consume way too many of these.

 

 

This is why we lust after former sox players who we forget have aged or even regressed a bit.  Its the same reason whenever a coaching spot opens up we get few threads on how this ex white sox player is a perfect fit even though they have never coached or shown a propensity for coaching.  I want the best possible pitcher to be aquired.  Not just a guy because I can member him in a white sox uniform.  Your post is spot on.  I like Quintana, I liked him as a whitesox pitcher when he was here. I just have a higher threshold for a team trying to win a world series than old trusty. 

[pcq]

Q had success here and might be more comfortable pitching here. He did not prosper in Cubland. We are talking about a depth piece. This is not just nostalgia. 

[Vulture]

Yeah I don't get why these other pitchers mentioned in this thread don't have as many or more caveats as Q. Richards hasn't been able to stay healthy in more than five years, Kluber is an aged arm looking to rebound who has had arm troubles keeping him out the past two years, etc. At least Q's arm is sound. Just keep him away from the electric can openers.

Id rather take my chances on Sugano. This guy is a horse who can go deep into games every time out. If not, Quintana is as good an option as any on FA market imo

[poppysox]

12 hours ago, bmags said:

With the food accounts circling a possible Q addition, that's something that has been received warmly by sox fans who remember his time here. I loved me some quintana, and was someone who would get angry when teams would not want to hand over their entire farm system for him.

That said, I am not that keen on him returning.

Let's get the easy stuff out first:

- Yes, it is likely he outperforms the extremely bad signing of gio gonzalez. Had we had a full year, gio would have been a big nothingburger.

And here is the good: Jose Quintana has pitched 175 innings for most of his career until he tried to cut fruit or whatever last year. For those that need it, I think the Ivan Nova comp for what he gives is legit. 

BUT:

- One thing that was interesting with Q and the sox was how his velocity continued to increase each year, but on the cubs it retreated, now settling in around 91.5 mph on average.

- The thing that made Q amazing was his home run suppression. During his sox years through 2016, his HR/FB rate was under 10%, it increased starting 2017 and stayed there during his time with the cubs.

- The cubs have generated more whiffs but I don't know if it made him a better pitcher. Quintana's stuff is not great, his command is. But cubs moved him to the recent trend of high fastballs to take advantage of his curve. It has made his curve much more effective, but as we pointed out earlier, that velo drop may matter here as his fastball is getting crushed. And I worry that when he's missing high, he's leaving the ball in the heart of the plate. His hard hit rate has increased recently, up to near 40%. His command keeps people from barreling him up too much, but he still gets crushed when he does leave it out. His hard hit % used to be above average, now it's below.

So he'll give you innings, he won't walk batters. That is still true. But I don't know that this doesn't keep getting worse.

Nice guy though!

Good write-up bmags.  I like his probable ability to give us innings and his outstanding control.   We should only consider him as starter depth while Katz works on the young guns.  I doubt he is a factor in the playoffs rotation.

[Vulture]

You never know. Plenty of guys with Quintana's trajectories bounce back and have good years in 32-37 age range, plenty just continue to fall into obscurity. One thing he has going for him, he knows how to pitch. Possible he could adjust. Wouldn't exactly be shocking if he had a couple 3-5 WAR seasons left in the tank. Purely antedotal but the times I saw him pitch in '20, he looked sharp to me. 

[vilehoopster]

So many people on this forum discuss Kopech like he's a sure thing. Kopech is far, far from that. We all have great hopes and expectations for him, but assuming that he'll be in AAA for a month and then come up and be awesome strikes me as silly. I could happen, and I would love to see it, but the guy has a lot of issues. 

Plus Cease is far from a sure thing also. Is that even open for debate?

I do suffer from nostalgia with Quintana. It was so enjoyable watching him pitch in that White Sox uniform. I would like to see him get another chance to do it again. I say bring him in, let him compete against all the other guys through spring training and then let's see what we got. If Cease and Kopech are better, and if everyone else stays healthy (a huge if) he can go and be long relief. But remember last year. . . .

Before last year started, the feeling on this board was that the Sox were set with at least five quality starting pitchers with the addition of Keuchel and a returning healthy Rodon.

But then Kopech decided to sit out; Lopez went into the tank: Cease became more shaky as the season wore on, and Rodon did what he always seems to do (I'm so glad his sorry ass is gone), and what happens.  Even with the addition of Dunning; by the time all was said and done and the playoffs were here, the Sox only had two starters worth a damn for the playoffs. 

So bring in Quintana, a guy who is a vet and can work a lot of innings, and let's see what he has and let him compete for a starting job and be some good insurance. Let's be realistic here: It's hard for me to imagine the White Sox having a rotation where they have five starters better than even a mediocre Quintana. 

[vilehoopster]

4 minutes ago, Vulture said:

You never know. Plenty of guys with Quintana's trajectories bounce back and have good years in 32-37 age range, plenty just continue to fall into obscurity. One thing he has going for him, he knows how to pitch. Possible he could adjust. Wouldn't exactly be shocking if he had a couple 3-5 WAR seasons left in the tank. Purely antedotal but the times I saw him pitch in '20, he looked sharp to me. 

I agree with this guy. It definitely happens. Plus getting away from the damn Cubs has to immediately have a positive impact on anybody.

[RagahRagah]

Response to the OP:

No.

[Stinky Stanky]

12 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

I agree with this guy. It definitely happens. Plus getting away from the damn Cubs has to immediately have a positive impact on anybody.

The Cubs pitching coach turned that wicked slider of Q's into a strikeout pitch.  Credit where credit is due.  Velocity be damned.

[Marky Mark]

His FIP/xFIP in the last few years is encouraging compared to his ERA.  Where has his cutter gone in his years on the Cubs?

[shakes]

On 12/8/2020 at 7:46 AM, bmags said:

He absolutely does. My only point there was that was not my standard here. I would like us to get the best talent.

I'm in agreement. I would like to go after some higher upside like Paxton/Kluber etc., assuming we take a more Dodgers type approach with HIll and Maeda to use them conservatively to have them available and healthy all year. I think 6 starters and bullpen days will be needed this year, and is a good approach in general.

I think Q has a lot of overlap as a poor man's Kuechel, and I prefer the upside now that Lynn is here and there are three innings eaters.

I also think counting on Kopech for anything is a mistake, and would prefer we start stretching Crochet out in the minors. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by shakes

[KrankinSox]

3 minutes ago, shakes said:

I'm in agreement. I would like to go after some higher upside like Paxton/Kluber etc., assuming we take a more Dodgers type approach with HIll and Maeda to use them conservatively to have them available and healthy all year. I think 6 starters and bullpen days will be needed this year, and is a good approach in general.

I think Q has a lot of overlap as a poor man's Kuechel, and I prefer the upside now that Lynn is here and there are three innings eaters.

The upside play is with Kopech and Cease. Give me a dependable starting pitcher in the FA market.  

[shakes]

10 minutes ago, KrankinSox said:

The upside play is with Kopech and Cease. Give me a dependable starting pitcher in the FA market.  

I don't agree for this year. Kopech hasn't thrown a meaningful inning since 2018 and we all have hopes for Cease, but this is win now. I want someone that Katz can work with that has better stuff than Q and we can be utilized in a more modern approach. Katz can work with Cease, Lopez, Kopech and whomever to fill in the backend slots and bullpen.

It's just a preference. Adding Q wouldn't be a bad thing, I just think there is room to take more upside risk. If the Sox can show they can help turn around someone like Archer, or keep Paxton contributing that can attract more projects in the future, since it looks like there may be a lot of 1 year type contracts in the Sox near future.

[steveno89]

On 12/8/2020 at 9:18 AM, bmags said:

I agree, I am circling paxton, though his fb was awful last year. But still feel slightly more confident than Kluber. 

Paxton is a guy we should be very interested in. If healthy, he could be an outstanding #4 

 

Just do not expect more than 130-150 innings out of him. 

[ChiSox1917]

Question with Q is whether 2019 is him or if he can get back to even where he was in 2017&2018.  A 2017/2018 Q is a solid #4 pitcher.  A 2019 Q is a long reliever/spot starter 

[GreenSox]

Look elsewhere, please.

Edited December 9, 2020 by GreenSox

[bmags]

32 minutes ago, shakes said:

I'm in agreement. I would like to go after some higher upside like Paxton/Kluber etc., assuming we take a more Dodgers type approach with HIll and Maeda to use them conservatively to have them available and healthy all year. I think 6 starters and bullpen days will be needed this year, and is a good approach in general.

I think Q has a lot of overlap as a poor man's Kuechel, and I prefer the upside now that Lynn is here and there are three innings eaters.

I also think counting on Kopech for anything is a mistake, and would prefer we start stretching Crochet out in the minors. 

The thing with Keuchel is he is lo velocity but has great movement on his pitches. Q doesn't really, he's all command. He's a brilliant pitcher in that respect, but it's a concern that it gets to a point where its so diminished it's really doesn't work at all.

[Dick Allen]

I liked Q, but what about Kluber? It wasn't a major surgery that got him in 2020 and 2019 was a fractured arm I believe. And in 2018, the guy was Cy Young. 

Between Q and Kluber, their 2020s are a wash, and before 2020, from a pitching standpoint, there is no way you take Q over him. Go for the kill for once White Sox.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Dick Allen

[SonofaRoache]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

I liked Q, but what about Kluber? It wasn't a major surgery that got him in 2020 and 2019 was a fractured arm I believe. And in 2018, the guy was Cy Young. 

Yep my order of preference is

Bauer (I know)

Paxton

Kluber

Tanaka

Q

Richards

On one year deals with nice second year options.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

Kluber is at the top of my list

[Jack Parkman]

26 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Yep my order of preference is

Bauer (I know)

Paxton

Kluber

Tanaka

Q

Richards

On one year deals with nice second year options.

Jerry will never sign a pitcher with elbow issues to a 3+ year deal, so cross Tanaka off the list. 

Kluber reportedly is only interested in signing on the east coast. 

[Whisox05]

 

[Jerksticks]

On 12/8/2020 at 8:19 AM, ChiSox59 said:

I’m good with Quintana. I like the guy and I think he’ll be a rock solid 4/5.
 

But in totality, the Lynn trade + Q + Joc makes me sick. Just more of the same BS from the Sox right when they’re on the precipice of greatness they get in their own way. Just spend some fucking money on more than role players you cowards. And don’t trade long term assets for 1 year fixes. Hahn preached this for years, and now I’m supposed to like a deal when he does the opposite? 
 

This isn’t necessarily fact.  Why do you assume that the Sox traded a long term asset?  Yes, we had control for 6 years, but what if the Sox viewed Dunning as a total nothingburger?  What if the Sox thought his value would tank if exposed to more MLB pitching next year?  
 

If you look at it through that lens, like actually look at it that way, wouldn’t you agree that it was not only good, but incredible that they turned this total bust into Lance Lynn?

 

Time will tell but it’s certainly possible.  I’m willing to give the mastermind of this genius rebuild the benefit of the doubt