Official: McCann is a Met, $40/4 years

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, Vulture said:

Not according to the graph that look at ray linked to. It clearly states that fangraphs war calculations do not include measures for framing

Believe it or not, Baseball reference has no reason to update their list when fangraphs makes changes because they're competition!

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/war-update-catcher-framing/

My goodness, have a nice night man.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Vulture said:

Its not my fault you can’t read a graph that you yourself provided

No, I cited that graph to show you where baseball reference specifically states that framing is ONLY accounted for on their cite in DRS. They specifically state that stat. You are citing dWAR which is an entirely different statistic. lol

[Vulture]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

That table is wrong or outdated then.

I’m not the one who provided it to support my argument. I just read it and can clearly see it states war calculation “measures catchers blocking and framing ‘ under fangraphs ‘no on framing’

[Vulture]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No, I cited that graph to show you where baseball reference specifically states that framing is ONLY accounted for on their cite in DRS. They specifically state that stat. You are citing dWAR which is an entirely different statistic. lol

No it says drs is used to account for framing in bref’s war calculation. Clearly

[Vulture]

Look at heading on graph “fangraphs war” go to row “uses measures for catcher framing and blocking” go to entry under “fangraphs war” and see “no on framing’” good god man it isn’t that difficult. Now look at heading under “b ref 2.2 war” and see “yes”

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

14 minutes ago, Vulture said:

No it says drs is used to account for framing in bref’s war calculation. Clearly

edit: Duplicate below.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Look at heading on graph “fangraphs war” go to row “uses measures for catcher framing and blocking” go to entry under “fangraphs war” and see “no on framing’” good god man it isn’t that difficult. Now look at heading under “b ref 2.2 war” and see “yes”

I literally just posted an article from 2019 in which Fangraphs says "WE ADDED FRAMING TO OUR WAR calculations."

???

This is my last post and time saying this; I posted the baseball reference chart to show YOU that baseball reference does NOT include framing in their defensive war (dWAR) calculations. THey only account for it in their DRS calculation. You cited defensive war (dWAR), not DRS or overall WAR.

edit; I would have been a terrible teacher apparently.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[ron883]

Here are some of the many reasons the White sox will go with Grandal instead of McCann.

1. Trading Grandal this season will be a challenge. Not sure who will take on big contracts like that after this pandemic season. Keeping both is not an option. Signing 2 catchers to big contracts is just ridiculous.

2. The biggest reason for me - this team desperately needs left handed bats. They also need players that can post a solid OBP. Grandal can do both of those. Replacing one of our few guys that can bat lefty would be a big mistakes.

3. McCann played sparingly and was put in positions where he would be successful. His numbers dropped off big time in the 2nd half of 2019 when he was playing regularly. First half OPS was .873, second half OPS was .695. That is much more in line with his career numbers.

Bottom line, we have one of the best hitting catchers in Grandal. He is also one of the best pitch framers. We need his lefty bat and OBP. There is no reason to complain about having Grandal

Edited December 11, 2020 by Yearnin' for Yermin

[Vulture]

23 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I literally just posted an article from 2019 in which Fangraphs says "WE ADDED FRAMING TO OUR WAR calculations."

???

This is my last post and time saying this; I posted the baseball reference chart to show YOU that baseball reference does NOT include framing in their defensive war (dWAR) calculations. THey only account for it in their DRS calculation. You cited defensive war (dWAR), not DRS or overall WAR.

edit; I would have been a terrible teacher apparently.

That’s not what the chart shows. the chart asks does war use measure for framing. the answer for bref is yes via drs which is used in the calculation. You provided the data not me if it is irrelevant to dwar, then why’d you post it?If it was out of date and not reflecting fangraphs subsequent change that just means you provided out of date info.

so your claim is that a graph that shows drs is used to account for framing in war means framing is not accounted for in dwar, when dwar is calculated by comparing drs to expected league average drs. That’s nonsensical. If drs accounts for framing in one equation it accounts for it in the other.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Vulture

[pcq]

9 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Yes, but once they signed Grandal, which, BTW, poppysox loved, that was the end of James McCann with the White Sox, unless he played like a back up catcher. Maybe he will, and the Sox can get him back for a fraction of his contract.  But he's a guy who went from non tender to 4 year contract. Good for him.

Modern baseball uses two catchers not one. I am sure the Dodgers would have kept McCann. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

So I’m confused. Does baseball reference account for framing in their WAR calculation or not? Because all I heard all season is how Grandal is so much better than McCann because of his fWAR in 2019 and in previous seasons and to disregard bWAR where McCann has been better than Grandal since 2019.

[Jerksticks]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

So I’m confused. Does baseball reference account for framing in their WAR calculation or not? Because all I heard all season is how Grandal is so much better than McCann because of his fWAR in 2019 and in previous seasons and to disregard bWAR where McCann has been better than Grandal since 2019.

I know this doesn’t answer your question but they seem like 2 of the beat catchers in baseball heading into 2021.  Glad we have one of them

[Vulture]

12 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

So I’m confused. Does baseball reference account for framing in their WAR calculation or not? Because all I heard all season is how Grandal is so much better than McCann because of his fWAR in 2019 and in previous seasons and to disregard bWAR where McCann has been better than Grandal since 2019.

According to ray ray (and bref) bref uses drs to account for framing. But ray claims since bref uses drs in war calculation it’s not accounted for in dwar. Since war is not dwar. Despite the fact dwar’s calculation is based entirely on drs compared to expected league average. I don’t know you decide

Edited December 11, 2020 by Vulture

[Vulture]

1 hour ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

Here are some of the many reasons the White sox will go with Grandal instead of McCann.

1. Trading Grandal this season will be a challenge. Not sure who will take on big contracts like that after this pandemic season. Keeping both is not an option. 

Bottom line, we have one of the best hitting catchers in Grandal. He is also one of the best pitch framers. We need his lefty bat and OBP. There is no reason to complain about having Grandal

Just to be clear my original statement everyone is arguing against was “if Rick hahn were slick he’d resign McCann and trade Grandal.” Shooting down the idea McCann has been comparable or better to grandal the last two years skirts the actual argument that the Sox would be better with that move. McCann could be measurably worse and that move still be favorable for the Sox.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Vulture

[Sleepy Harold]

 

 

 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

I take back everything I said.  Screw you, Dombo!

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 hours ago, Vulture said:

According to ray ray (and bref) bref uses drs to account for framing. But ray claims since bref uses drs in war calculation it’s not accounted for in dwar. Since war is not dwar. Despite the fact dwar’s calculation is based entirely on drs compared to expected league average. I don’t know you decide

Lol pal I've tried to be helpful to you and you just refuse to listen. You can literally hold your mouse over the dWAR stat you are citing to see how its calculated and you'd see that it doesn't include framing. It uses the 2003 calculation for DRS. Then hover your mouse over DRS and it'll show you that one specifically includes framing. I literally have this stuff exported to my own dbms daily. Im relatively familiar with how most of the stats are calculated from analysis I did in my early 20's and mid 20's when I worked with that kind of data. I've tried to be respectful and explanatory and its just gone over your head for whatever reason. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Vulture]

4 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No, I cited that graph to show you where baseball reference specifically states that framing is ONLY accounted for on their cite in DRS. 

Seriously? 

With our 2012 update, we have switched to using Baseball Info Solutions Defensive Runs Saved for seasons since its introduction in 2003, and TZR for previous seasons.

Fielding Runs: Defensive Runs Saved

Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) is the most sophisticated public system available. It includes 8 factors:

• Fielding Range Plus/Minus Runs Saved based on BIS-trained scorer observations and batted ball timing to determine the velocity of each batted ball.
• Outfield arm runs saved based on exact counts of baserunner advancements and kills and the velocity of the hit ball.
• Infielder double plays based on opportunities and rates they were turned based also on batted ball velocity.
• Good play-bad play values which include 28 positive play types. For example: HR-saving catches, backing up a play, blocking a pitch in the dirt, and 54 misplays like missing the cutoff man, failing to anticipate the wall and allowing extra bases, not covering a base, pulling a foot off the bag, etc...
• Bunt Fielding
• Catcher SB/CS data (which is tweaked by the pitchers caught)
• Pitcher SB/CS data (which is tweaked by the catchers behind the plate)
• Catcher handling of the pitching staff via things like pitch framing and pitch calling

Defensive Wins Above Replacement for position players
A defensive measure of wins above replacement, but given
only the defensive stats of the player and his position adjustment. For this calculation, we use a
replacement level on defense is the league average.
Based on Baseball Info Solutions defensive runs saved from 2003 on

Bref dwar IS completely based on drs as above clearly states

Edited December 11, 2020 by Vulture

[South Side Hit Men]

13 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Seriously? 

With our 2012 update, we have switched to using Baseball Info Solutions Defensive Runs Saved for seasons since its introduction in 2003, and TZR for previous seasons.

Fielding Runs: Defensive Runs Saved

Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) is the most sophisticated public system available. It includes 8 factors:

• Fielding Range Plus/Minus Runs Saved based on BIS-trained scorer observations and batted ball timing to determine the velocity of each batted ball.
• Outfield arm runs saved based on exact counts of baserunner advancements and kills and the velocity of the hit ball.
• Infielder double plays based on opportunities and rates they were turned based also on batted ball velocity.
• Good play-bad play values which include 28 positive play types. For example: HR-saving catches, backing up a play, blocking a pitch in the dirt, and 54 misplays like missing the cutoff man, failing to anticipate the wall and allowing extra bases, not covering a base, pulling a foot off the bag, etc...
• Bunt Fielding
• Catcher SB/CS data (which is tweaked by the pitchers caught)
• Pitcher SB/CS data (which is tweaked by the catchers behind the plate)
• Catcher handling of the pitching staff via things like pitch framing and pitch calling

Defensive Wins Above Replacement for position players
A defensive measure of wins above replacement, but given
only the defensive stats of the player and his position adjustment. For this calculation, we use a
replacement level on defense is the league average.
Based on Baseball Info Solutions defensive runs saved from 2003 on
and total zone rating developed by Sean

@Vulture,

I had the same assumption, but based on a more recent post, Baseball Reference is intentionally withholding factoring their pitch framing metric in their dWAR rating per their most recent update regarding the topic (March, 2018).

https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2018/03/pitch-framing-measures-added-to-baseball-reference/

Our friends at Sports Info Solutions (formerly known as Baseball Info Solutions) have provided us with a pitch framing measure back to 2011, which we have added to Baseball Reference. Before I explain any further, if you're unfamiliar with the concept of pitch framing please read Mike Fast's 2011 article on the topic and Ben Lindbergh's 2013 follow up.

The stat that we have added is called Strike Zone Runs Saved. It represents the runs saved by catcher framing. In our tables, it's labeled RszC and it's available from 2011 to the present. While this statistic is a potential component of Defensive Runs Saved (and therefore WAR), please note that we have elected to not integrate this number into DRS (or WAR) at this time. We may elect to do so in the future, but for now we agree with Bill James's stance that waiting for further research is a good idea.

Edited December 11, 2020 by South Side Hit Men

[Vulture]

Well that completely contradicts the explanation on bref’s actual site that I pasted there

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

31 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Seriously? 

With our 2012 update, we have switched to using Baseball Info Solutions Defensive Runs Saved for seasons since its introduction in 2003, and TZR for previous seasons.

Fielding Runs: Defensive Runs Saved

Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) is the most sophisticated public system available. It includes 8 factors:

• Fielding Range Plus/Minus Runs Saved based on BIS-trained scorer observations and batted ball timing to determine the velocity of each batted ball.
• Outfield arm runs saved based on exact counts of baserunner advancements and kills and the velocity of the hit ball.
• Infielder double plays based on opportunities and rates they were turned based also on batted ball velocity.
• Good play-bad play values which include 28 positive play types. For example: HR-saving catches, backing up a play, blocking a pitch in the dirt, and 54 misplays like missing the cutoff man, failing to anticipate the wall and allowing extra bases, not covering a base, pulling a foot off the bag, etc...
• Bunt Fielding
• Catcher SB/CS data (which is tweaked by the pitchers caught)
• Pitcher SB/CS data (which is tweaked by the catchers behind the plate)
• Catcher handling of the pitching staff via things like pitch framing and pitch calling

Defensive Wins Above Replacement for position players
A defensive measure of wins above replacement, but given
only the defensive stats of the player and his position adjustment. For this calculation, we use a
replacement level on defense is the league average.
Based on Baseball Info Solutions defensive runs saved from 2003 on

Bref dwar IS completely based on drs as above clearly states

What you cited little states what I said. This is amazing. Pal, I get being skeptical but this isn't a debate. Do you notice how they don't add the part about framing for yours. There are no assumptions in statistical analysis. If the its not listed its not included. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

19 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Well that completely contradicts the explanation on bref’s actual site that I pasted there

Edit: I just give up

Edited December 11, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Vulture]

8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What you cited little states what I said. This is amazing. Pal, I get being skeptical but this isn't a debate. Do you notice how they don't add the part about framing for yours. There are no assumptions in statistical analysis. If the its not listed its not included. 

It plainly says framing is included in drs and that dwar is based on drs and drs alone. If A contains B and B contains C then A contains C. 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Vulture

[Bob Sacamano]

This is impressive.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, manbearpuig said:

This is impressive.

My head hurts. 

Vulture heres your hint buddy. dWAR exists historically. DRS does not.