Indians will be no more

[ChiSox1917]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Uh, duh, yes.  We should identify them by their OWN tribal and national identities.  They aren't Indians or native Americans first.  They are Pottawatomie, they are Iroquois, they are Hopi, they are Creeks,  etc.  This goes to EXACTLY what I am talking about when I talk about stripping them of their own identities and branding them in our own image.

And hell yes, this was a genocide.  It was organized and government sanctioned killings and removals repeated many times over centuries of time, and a lot of the more subtle policies are still in place to this day.

Wow. Thats the equivalent of getting upset over being called british instead of welsh

[ChiSox1917]

23 minutes ago, Angel Hernandez said:

Up next

Blackhawks, Braves, Chiefs, Seminoles, Rajin Cajuns ect.

?

We need to wipe away any and all native american imagery until the culture is forgotten about. How dare these teams try to honor or admire their culture!

[southsider2k5]

27 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Wow. Thats the equivalent of getting upset over being called british instead of welsh

You can throw whatever whataboutisms at this you like, it does not alter the underlying facts or history involved here.

[he gone.]

The Cleveland fans from Brookpark were all going to progressive field and chanting and chopping out of admiration and their love of Native American culture. ?

Your point, reading through your posts, seems to be that only some Native Americans are offended by the name, while others don't care and others take pride in it.

The point most are trying to make is that there are many other names you can choose that dont offend ANYONE. Like for instance the White Sox or Tigers, Twins, Royals, etc. It's really not that hard to pick a name that offends nobody and it's a simple enough change to make. 

If you want to stick with admiration angle I'm sure they can be admired via the fact Cleveland is in Cuyhoga County, or that Chicago is named by native American's, etc. Their culture is intertwined because this was their land first. 

But to each their own. I'd consider it highly unlikely I, or anybody change your mind through reasoning ... so carry on and go buy up all the indian merchandise to help admire their culture!

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

33 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

We need to wipe away any and all native american imagery until the culture is forgotten about. How dare these teams try to honor or admire their culture!

You know, we could teach about their cultures and past in SCHOOL and not through offensive caricatures that are sold for a profit by teams that aren't even affiliated with the community? I know that's a crazy concept to you.

[ChiSox1917]

13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You can throw whatever whataboutisms at this you like, it does not alter the underlying facts or history involved here.

Thats an analogy, not a whataboutism. 

[ChiSox1917]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You know, we could teach about their cultures and past in SCHOOL and not through offensive caricatures that are sold for a profit by teams that aren't even affiliated with the community? I know that's a crazy concept to you.

How bad was your education? Seriously? Who wasnt taught this in elementary and high school?

[he gone.]

Forget the rules of copy/paste. So link to the article below. I understand this is wikipedia. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Cleveland_Indians

Somers asked the local baseball writers to come up with a new name, and based on their input, the team was renamed the Cleveland Indians.^[12] It is claimed that the nickname "Indians" references Cleveland Spiders baseball club during the time when Louis Sockalexis, a Native American, had played in Cleveland (1897–99);^[13] however this is contested by sportswriter Joe Posnanski who argues "Why exactly would people in Cleveland — this in a time when Native Americans were generally viewed as subhuman in America — name their team after a relatively minor and certainly troubled outfielder?" Sockalexis played only 96 games over three seasons, compiling just 367 at bats in his career. Sockalexis also "had to deal with horrendous racism, terrible taunts, whoops from the crowd, and so on," according to Posnanski. According to history professor Jonathan Zimmerman, the franchise was named the Indians by local baseball writers not to honor Sockalexis, but as a reference to the "fun" that he would inspire in crowds and the fact that journalists jokingly referred to the club as the "Cleveland Indians," even though it was officially named the Spiders.^[14] "In place of the Naps, we'll have the Indians, on the warpath all the time, and eager for scalps to dangle at their belts," wrote an article in the Cleveland Leader of January 17, 1915.

 

But, but but... we're HONORING them! it's a sense of PRIDE for some! Let's be serious America (and a lot of other countries) are full of very racist histories. We were built on the backs of other cultures and continue to be so. Don't get it twisted - if you were offered the opportunity to be any race and any sex you would pick white male without a second thought... it would take 0.1 seconds to make that decision. The fact that it is that easy of a question really shows that although we are taking strides over time, we still have work to do. This isn't white guilt. it's the truth. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, ChiSox1917 said:

How bad was your education? Seriously? Who wasnt taught this in elementary and high school?

You have proven through your ignorance within this thread that you weren't taught any actual history of Native Americans; I know you haven't come to that realization yet, but maybe one day...

[ChiSox1917]

6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You have proven through your ignorance within this thread that you weren't taught any actual history of Native Americans; I know you haven't come to that realization yet, but maybe one day...

You havent expressed a single bit of american or native american history i am not well aware of bud. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by ChiSox1917

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

52 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

We need to wipe away any and all native american imagery until the culture is forgotten about. How dare these teams try to honor or admire their culture!

You literally argued that the murder of 95% of the native population over the course of just three generations wasn't genocide. Your exact words were:  (Source: https://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html#:~:text=Within just a few generations,the population of the Americas.)

"although id argue genocide is probably a stretch"

Why, because they didn't kill 100% of them. Amazing stuff. The expert on native history is arguing that "Indians" isn't offensive and that genocide is a "stretch."

Edited December 14, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

You havent expressed a single bit of american or native american history i am not well aware of bud. 

3 hours ago, ChiSox1917 said:

“Indians”?

[pcq]

4 hours ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Should Minnesota be forced to change the name of their football team that portrays nordic people of the past as warrior driven vikings, when in reality many were peaceful farmers?  How is that portrayal of a people any different than portraying Indians as great warriors? Do you think cleveland picked that name to demean natives? 
 

I dont care what hypersensitive, constantly offended people say or think. I cant imagine living life constantly worrying about that. Seems like an awful life. You act like all native americans are offended by the name, but even with the more offensive redskins name at most half were.  

Even though it's just lip service it still offends people when we try to be respectful. It doesn't cost anything.

[ChiSox1917]

7 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

But, but but... we're HONORING them! it's a sense of PRIDE for some! Let's be serious America (and a lot of other countries) are full of very racist histories. We were built on the backs of other cultures and continue to be so. Don't get it twisted - if you were offered the opportunity to be any race and any sex you would pick white male without a second thought... it would take 0.1 seconds to make that decision. The fact that it is that easy of a question really shows that although we are taking strides over time, we still have work to do. This isn't white guilt. it's the truth. 

Every country has a racist past. What does that have to do with anything? And hell america is easily one of the least racist in comparison (honestly thinking otherwise just exposes ignorance of world history).  
 

when the majority of native americans attribute pride as their closest thought towards sports teams using their imagery as mascots, why does the vocal minorities opinions trump theirs?  We do not have a majority of native americans speaking out about the indians changing their name. Hell id bet that more white liberals are offended by the term “indians” than actual indians.  

[ChiSox1917]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You literally argued that the murder of 95% of the native population over the course of just three generations wasn't genocide. Your exact words were:  (Source: https://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html#:~:text=Within just a few generations,the population of the Americas.)

"although id argue genocide is probably a stretch"

Why, because they didn't kill 100% of them. Amazing stuff. The expert on native history is arguing that "Indians" isn't offensive and that genocide is a "stretch."

Yes because 75-90% of native american deaths were due to disease. Genocide requires intent, not just the outcome

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Yes because 75-90% of native american deaths were due to disease. Genocide requires intent, not just the outcome

Pal, I thought you were a historian taught about Native history:

https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets#:~:text=An illustration of Ottawa Chief,infecting blankets after peace talks.

"An illustration of Ottawa Chief, Pontiac confronting Colonel Henry Bouquet who authorized his officers to spread smallpox amongst native Americans by deliberately infecting blankets after peace talks"

The disease spread was a deliberate weapon. I'm sure you knew that though; "just a couple bad apples" lol.

[Vulture]

4 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

The Fighting Irish got their name from when a bunch of ND students went hog wild on the Klan, so no

A leprechaun to represent Irish people does seem a bit racist actually

[Vulture]

8 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Yes because 75-90% of native american deaths were due to disease. Genocide requires intent, not just the outcome

There was intent. I can’t believe this is even up for debate. Bureau of Indian Affirs had a program of coerced sterilization that operated into at least the 1970s. Forcing people from land and deliberately limiting their population is genocide. US government for decades paid for scalps of native Americans.

[ChiSox1917]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Pal, I thought you were a historian taught about Native history:

https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets#:~:text=An illustration of Ottawa Chief,infecting blankets after peace talks.

"An illustration of Ottawa Chief, Pontiac confronting Colonel Henry Bouquet who authorized his officers to spread smallpox amongst native Americans by deliberately infecting blankets after peace talks"

The disease spread was a deliberate weapon. I'm sure you knew that though; "just a couple bad apples" lol.

There is one reported attempt, and even there the evidence is dubious as there isnt any record of it actually being done - just considered. Further, if it was carried out, it didnt work in that circumstance. 
 

but yeah, lets attribute all the indian deaths due to diseases, including influenza, typhus, and cholera to a couple smallpox blankets. LMAO!!!

Lets also just conveniently ignore the early american governments attempts to vaccinate indians from smallpox too (which largely proved successful in the early 1800s) so that we can distort history and claim genocide.  

[shago]

The Cleveland Paste Eaters?

[Vulture]

17 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Every country has a racist past. What does that have to do with anything? And hell america is easily one of the least racist in comparison (honestly thinking otherwise just exposes ignorance of world history).  

I haven’t heard of the Berlin Jews or the Hamburg Gypsies though

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

There is one reported attempt, and even there the evidence is dubious as there isnt any record of it actually being done - just considered. Further, if it was carried out, it didnt work in that circumstance. 
 

but yeah, lets attribute all the indian deaths due to diseases, including influenza, typhus, and cholera to a couple smallpox blankets. LMAO!!!

Lets also just conveniently ignore the early american governments attempts to vaccinate indians from smallpox too (which largely proved successful in the early 1800s) so that we can distort history and claim genocide.  

I'm going to bow out because you clearly just have no idea what you're talking about and you'll just deny until you die which is your right to do. 

America's broken education system has produced denialist like you in bulk.

This guy really said "And hell america is easily one of the least racist in comparison"

The entire countries initial economy was built on racism. That racism existed well into the 1950's legally. I'd say give this book a read, but we know that won't happen:

Edited December 14, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[he gone.]

"I always think there's a vocal minority who basically needs to have a view to sound smart, and most of the time they're pretty fucking stupid. to be honest with you. Ya know the loudest people are never the smartest people, um, the ones that want to be heard because they want attention for some other set of reasons that come from their own psychology and insecurity. I think that anybody who spends the time to learn about anything always comes off as pretty moderate and boring because they tend to come to a balanced perspective. the more you learn, the more confusing things are so that the more, almost more conservative in the presentation of the facts one is. its when your just starting to learn about something and you think you can be heard that you start to spout off and frankly to the people who know more ... you sound like a dumbass"

- Chamath Palihapitiya

[Vulture]

19 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

There is one reported attempt, and even there the evidence is dubious as there isnt any record of it actually being done - just considered. Further, if it was carried out, it didnt work in that circumstance. 
 

but yeah, lets attribute all the indian deaths due to diseases, including influenza, typhus, and cholera to a couple smallpox blankets. LMAO!!!

Lets also just conveniently ignore the early american governments attempts to vaccinate indians from smallpox too (which largely proved successful in the early 1800s) so that we can distort history and claim genocide.  

How do explain the government paying for scalps and forced sterilization then?You’re the one distorting history in order to appease the cognitive dissonance rattling around your brain. Trail of Tears was a death March. What next, nazis weren’t committing genocide because a lot of people died of exposure. Gtfo

Edited December 14, 2020 by Vulture

[ChiSox1917]

8 minutes ago, Vulture said:

There was intent. I can’t believe this is even up for debate. Bureau of Indian Affirs had a program of coerced sterilization that operated into at least the 1970s. Forcing people from land and deliberately limiting their population is genocide. US government for decades paid for scalps of native Americans.

What your describing happened to multiple ethnic groups at that time and was driven by doctors thinking it was the best case for poor girls. It happened to a lot of black women and poor rural whites as well. Absolutely despicable for all involved, but it wasnt limited to native americans.