2021 NHL Thread

[Tony]

11 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Not really. People can control the process, but not the results. One person could do everything right but get shitty results, and another can half-ass the process and get great results. 

Generally, people do a good job with the process and get average results. 

There are outliers, but those are the exceptions and not the rule. 

The fact that not everyone can be a professional athlete no matter how much effort they put into it should be a daily reminder of the randomness of personal success and failure. 

I feel like you’re trying to once again to be smarter than everyone else and “look at things differently” but it’s another instance where it just makes you look silly. 

Mike Smith was a bad GM overall. Made a lot of bad moves. He absolutely deserves credit for drafting Seabrook, Keith, Crawford and Byfuglien. The same can basically be said about Tallon, but he was responsible for really putting together and developing the core of the Stanley Cup run. Again, deserves a bunch of credit. 
 

I know you’re “theory” has a lot to do with your own life, and I’m sorry for whatever issues you’ve dealt with or are still currently dealing with, but just being real…Just because you feel like you’ve put in work and “life” hasn’t worked out the way you wanted, doesn’t mean Theo Epstein doesn’t deserve credit for winning championships with two separate franchises. He didn’t just get lucky. 

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

I feel like you’re trying to once again to be smarter than everyone else and “look at things differently” but it’s another instance where it just makes you look silly. 

Mike Smith was a bad GM overall. Made a lot of bad moves. He absolutely deserves credit for drafting Seabrook, Keith, Crawford and Byfuglien. The same can basically be said about Tallon, but he was responsible for really putting together and developing the core of the Stanley Cup run. Again, deserves a bunch of credit. 
 

I know you’re “theory” has a lot to do with your own life, and I’m sorry for whatever issues you’ve dealt with or are still currently dealing with, but just being real…Just because you feel like you’ve put in work and “life” hasn’t worked out the way you wanted, doesn’t mean Theo Epstein doesn’t deserve credit for winning championships with two separate franchises. He didn’t just get lucky. 

Theo is exceptional as a scout but average as a GM. His issues popped up in both Boston and Chicago. He's great at building a team that has a window to win but he's terrible at maximizing said window. 

Theo is the turnaround king. 

Steve Yzerman is on a similar path with the Lightning/Wings. 

It would be more believable that someone is actually good at their job as a sports GM rather than getting lucky if there was any consistency behind moves over a long period of time.

Theo and Yzerman have proven over a long period of consistency that they can scout talent in their respective sports. They have not proven that they can maximize windows. 

Sports are random, especially hockey and baseball. 

The fact that the playoffs are such a crapshoot in both sports should be enough to prove randomness. 

At the end of the day, all three of Bowman, Tallon and Smith contributed to the Hawks winning 3 cups. Both Bowman and Tallon are responsible for their downfall. How much credit/blame one gives to those responsible is completely subjective. It's an interesting debate. 

In terms of Rocky as an owner, it's easy to be an owner in a hard capped league when you inherit the team with a championship level core in place. 

Right now is when we, as a fanbase, learn what kind of owner he really is. It's not looking good.  

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

They lucked their way into 3 cups. 

Well the four who took credit for winning 3 cups lucked into it, because it was Bill Wirtz and his guy Dale Tallon who acquired the core team responsible for the Hawks' on ice success. 

Rocky, John and the Bowmans took credit for the work of others, but when it came time to rectify their racist coach's behavior (Bill Peters) or report their serial rapist video coach to the authorities, they turned the other way. Stan approved demoting the black player subject to abused by Bill Peters. Rocky's organization not only condoned a culture of taunting the sexually abused players, but later recommended Aldrich for jobs with access to children, who Brad of course also raped until he was finally arrested, convicted and jailed.

Bill Peters was fired by a responsible organization, for Bill's actions while he was with Rocky's organization. Then again, Rocky's team logo is also racist, so there is no evidence Rocky, John or the Bowmans consider rape or racism wrong, or that they are responsible for either at this juncture.

John was finally purged to save Rocky ca$h during COVID and give his son a job. Rocky, Scotty and Stan need to go immediately, if not sooner, as well as anyone else still there in a position of authority who aided and abetted Aldrich either during his time in Chicago, or provided employment recommendations after his departure.

[Tony]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Theo is exceptional as a scout but average as a GM. His issues popped up in both Boston and Chicago. He's great at building a team that has a window to win but he's terrible at maximizing said window. 

Theo is the turnaround king.  

Let’s say this is true. Then he still deserves a ton of credit for turning those franchises around. It wasn’t just luck. He’s very good at his job and got results..in two unique locations.

That’s the point. 
 

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Well the four who took credit for winning 3 cups lucked into it, because it was Bill Wirtz and his guy Dale Tallon who acquired the core team responsible for the Hawks' on ice success. 

Rocky, John and the Bowmans took credit for the work of others, but when it came time to rectify their racist coach's behavior (Bill Peters) or report their serial rapist video coach to the authorities, they turned the other way. Stan approved demoting the black player subject to abused by Bill Peters. Rocky's organization not only condoned a culture of taunting the sexually abused players, but later recommended Aldrich for jobs with access to children, who Brad of course also raped until he was finally arrested, convicted and jailed.

Bill Peters was fired by a responsible organization, for Bill's actions while he was with Rocky's organization. Then again, Rocky's team logo is also racist, so there is no evidence Rocky, John or the Bowmans consider rape or racism wrong, or that they are responsible for either at this juncture.

John was finally purged to save Rocky ca$h during COVID and give his son a job. Rocky, Scotty and Stan need to go immediately, if not sooner, as well as anyone else still there in a position of authority who aided and abetted Aldrich either during his time in Chicago, or provided employment recommendations after his departure.

I don't disagree. 

 

[Jack Parkman]

55 minutes ago, Tony said:

Let’s say this is true. Then he still deserves a ton of credit for turning those franchises around. It wasn’t just luck. He’s very good at his job and got results..in two unique locations.

That’s the point. 
 

Playoffs are a crapshoot though. Does Theo get any credit if his teams never won anything? 

He only gets credit because his teams won the variance lottery. 

Think of all of the weird shit that had to happen for the Sox to win the WS in 05. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Tony]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Playoffs are a crapshoot though. Does Theo get any credit if his teams never won anything? 

He only gets credit because his teams won the variance lottery. 

Think of all of the weird shit that had to happen for the Sox to win the WS in 05. 

But....it did happen. I mean what a bizarre argument. 

He gets credit because it did happen. Why did it happen? Because he built a team and core that performed consistently in the playoffs, which gave them the opportunity to compete for a World Series Championship. 

Stop buying into this "the playoffs are a total crapshot, anyone can win, it's all equal" bullshit narrative. Not all playoff teams are created equal. 

Additionally, you used the 2005 Sox as an example. So now having well over a decade to examine that, it's clear that team was in fact lucky. They didn't make the playoffs in 2004 or 2006. That was proven to be a great run in one season. The Cubs went to the NLCS consistently during their run. There is a large difference. 

[Jack Parkman]

15 minutes ago, Tony said:

But....it did happen. I mean what a bizarre argument. 

He gets credit because it did happen. Why did it happen? Because he built a team and core that performed consistently in the playoffs, which gave them the opportunity to compete for a World Series Championship. 

Stop buying into this "the playoffs are a total crapshot, anyone can win, it's all equal" bullshit narrative. Not all playoff teams are created equal. 

Additionally, you used the 2005 Sox as an example. So now having well over a decade to examine that, it's clear that team was in fact lucky. They didn't make the playoffs in 2004 or 2006. That was proven to be a great run in one season. The Cubs went to the NLCS consistently during their run. There is a large difference. 

The Braves just won 88 games, the fewest of any NL playoff team, and are missing a top 5 player in the game. They're representing the NL in the WS. Nobody had the Braves coming out of the NL. 

They're another proof of variance. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Tony]

8 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The Braves just won 88 games, the fewest of any NL playoff team, and are missing a top 5 player in the game. They're representing the NL in the WS. Nobody had the Braves coming out of the NL. 

They're another proof of variance. 

And the Astros going to 5 straight ALCS are what? What does that do for your variance argument? 

You're the same Jack as always. You feel like life didn't go your way but you worked just as hard as everyone else....so anyone with success must just be lucky, has nothing to do with being skilled. Because if skill = success, in your mind you'd be much more successful than you currently are. 

But as we've gone round and round before, just because you haven't been successful doesn't mean others with skill aren't talented and impactful. It's an argument devoid of any logic or substance, but here we are. 

So happy to have you back on the site. 

[Jack Parkman]

57 minutes ago, Tony said:

And the Astros going to 5 straight ALCS are what? What does that do for your variance argument? 

You're the same Jack as always. You feel like life didn't go your way but you worked just as hard as everyone else....so anyone with success must just be lucky, has nothing to do with being skilled. Because if skill = success, in your mind you'd be much more successful than you currently are. 

But as we've gone round and round before, just because you haven't been successful doesn't mean others with skill aren't talented and impactful. It's an argument devoid of any logic or substance, but here we are. 

So happy to have you back on the site. 

I thought it was an accepted fact about the level of variance in baseball and hockey. 

Do you believe in data science at all? 

Anyway, this point of view has nothing to do with me. I live in an alien world not built for people like me. I'm one of those outliers. 

The reason I don't believe in merit has more to do with what I see in mainstream society than anything in my personal life. It does explain a lot though. 

There's a lot more research and data behind my views on merit. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Tony]

25 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I thought it was an accepted fact about the level of variance in baseball and hockey. 

Do you believe in data science at all? 

Anyway, this point of view has nothing to do with me. I live in an alien world not built for people like me. I'm one of those outliers. 

The reason I don't believe in merit has more to do with what I see in mainstream society than anything in my personal life. It does explain a lot though. 

There's a lot more research and data behind my views on merit. 

You can throw all the "research and data" you want at it, and convince yourself you know better than everyone else. 

But if we're having an argument and I say "Erik Neander is a very smart baseball man that has made incredibly good decisions that have led his TB Rays to 3 straight playoff appearances, one of which resulted in a World Series appearance, all on a shoe-string budget in a brutal AL East." and you say "It's all just luck, he isn't smarter than anyone else or deserve any credit, eventually his luck will run out and then he'll be considered a bad GM..." 

I'll take my side any day of the week, as would about 98% of other people. You being in the other 2% doesn't make you smarter than everyone, it just makes you wrong. 

[Jack Parkman]

delete, forget it. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, Tony said:

You can throw all the "research and data" you want at it, and convince yourself you know better than everyone else. 

But if we're having an argument and I say "Erik Neander is a very smart baseball man that has made incredibly good decisions that have led his TB Rays to 3 straight playoff appearances, one of which resulted in a World Series appearance, all on a shoe-string budget in a brutal AL East." and you say "It's all just luck, he isn't smarter than anyone else or deserve any credit, eventually his luck will run out and then he'll be considered a bad GM..." 

I'll take my side any day of the week, as would about 98% of other people. You being in the other 2% doesn't make you smarter than everyone, it just makes you wrong. 

I have no problem with saying that GMs or coaches that have success in multiple stops are good. 

You can't be a great coach without great players, and you can't be a great GM without some luck in player evaluation along the way. 

Drafting Duncan Keith or Nikita Kucherov in the 2nd round is lucky, no matter how you slice it. There's no way in hell the scouts thought either player would be as good as they became. 

Having the Astros pass on Kris Bryant is lucky. 

Drew Bledsoe getting hurt and getting the best QB of all time in the 6th round is lucky. 

Let's agree to disagree and call it that. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Tony]

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I would be shocked if it is more than a sacrificial lamb.

[Chisoxfn]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I would be shocked if it is more than a sacrificial lamb.

Nah I think wholesale changes. 

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Nah I think wholesale changes. 

I really hope so.  This should be a deathknell for careers.

[Kyyle23]

11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I would be shocked if it is more than a sacrificial lamb.

If it was gonna be that light then they would left it that the sacrificial lamb was McDonough.   I think this is gonna be a wholesale change 

[Jack Parkman]

I know this is kind of unrelated, but if they knew this was a possibility, how in the fuck does ownership let Bowman make a franchise-altering trade like the Jones deal knowing full well he's on his way out????

[Dick Allen]

Al MacIsaac was canned.

[Dick Allen]

No announcement yet, but Stan is the only one left from the big meeting mentioned in the press conference that still may work for the Blackhawks, so he is probably gone. 

[Tony]

 

[Tony]

55 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I know this is kind of unrelated, but if they knew this was a possibility, how in the fuck does ownership let Bowman make a franchise-altering trade like the Jones deal knowing full well he's on his way out????

I don't disagree here. It's why I believed Bowman was safe. 

If you believe the Wirtz side, they let this private firm handle everything and didn't get involved. Fine, but there was enough information made public to know it was very possible things were going to get ugly. Not only did they let him sign a player like Jones to a massive deal, but they promoted him this summer....

[Jack Parkman]

This shit is disgusting and despicable, however I am willing to give the org a 2nd chance based on how Rocky and Danny handled this. Kudos to them. 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Dick Allen]

I can see Stan's point if he's being straight. He did report the incident to his superior, McCub, and expected him to handle it. Now, over 11 years later, not following up while being a first year GM and going above his boss' head,  cost him his job.  That's kind of shitty. Not nearly as shitty as what happened to the player, but I think most of us would have washed our hands of it once we reported it to our boss.