2021 NHL Thread

[soulfly]

11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Maybe not let one of their teammates call Beach a slur and mock his sexual assault?  This happened on the ice and I find it hard to believe your beloved Captain wasn’t present.

Well, also, guys on teams say that shit to each other all the time.  Maybe not as much currently, but to say that was something so uncommon that everyone would notice or remember hearing that specific instance is crazy.  I played on enough teams when I was young and between the locker room, practices, games, that shit happened.  Not condoning it, but just saying, it was super common.  Saw and heard enough fucked up shit to sadly make me realize that what we are hearing about is far more common than most people would possibly believe.  No one would root for any team if everyone came forward.

I mean hell, there was a certain big time pitcher on the Cubs semi recently that would sometimes go in and piss on other guys while they were showering to fuck with them.  Some guys in locker rooms do some messed up stuff.  Hazing, harassing, etc.  No idea why. 

[Jack Parkman]

37 minutes ago, soulfly said:

Well, also, guys on teams say that shit to each other all the time.  Maybe not as much currently, but to say that was something so uncommon that everyone would notice or remember hearing that specific instance is crazy.  I played on enough teams when I was young and between the locker room, practices, games, that shit happened.  Not condoning it, but just saying, it was super common.  Saw and heard enough fucked up shit to sadly make me realize that what we are hearing about is far more common than most people would possibly believe.  No one would root for any team if everyone came forward.

I mean hell, there was a certain big time pitcher on the Cubs semi recently that would sometimes go in and piss on other guys while they were showering to fuck with them.  Some guys in locker rooms do some messed up stuff.  Hazing, harassing, etc.  No idea why. 

^^^^^

This doesn't make it acceptable, but it's common male behavior. 

Toxic masculinity shit

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[South Side Hit Men]

 

[South Side Hit Men]

 

[ron883]

13 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by ron883

[ron883]

18 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

 

Did you ever call anybody or anything gay in the 2000s?

[Chicago White Sox]

5 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

^^^^^

This doesn't make it acceptable, but it's common male behavior. 

Toxic masculinity shit

 

Common male behavior to ridicule someone for being sexually assaulted?  You actually think that’s acceptable and you’re cool Captain Toews looked the other way?

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Common male behavior to ridicule someone for being sexually assaulted?  You actually think that’s acceptable and you’re cool Captain Toews looked the other way?

All the guys were basically kids. If we cancel everyone who has used gay as a derogatory thing at any point in their life, we would probably not interact with anyone. I think they probably had a hard time wrapping their heads around a big guy like Beach being sexually assaulted by Aldrich, who seems like a really little guy.  Players are macho and naïve. If it happened at this stage of their lives, there is reason to criticize. But the adults in the room are the ones to blame IMO. 

I think there are things we all have done or have acted at age 20 or 21 where if it happened again, we wouldn't act the same..'

One thing I would criticize a guy like Toews for is if he is lying now about what he knew and when he knew it. The great Coach Q got caught in a lie, and will never live it down.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Dick Allen

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Common male behavior to ridicule someone for being sexually assaulted?  You actually think that’s acceptable and you’re cool Captain Toews looked the other way?

No, it's common male behavior to bust your teammates balls in a sports locker room. 

I don't think that they ridiculed him for being sexually assaulted. This is part of the reason why I think the players didn't know the whole story. I don't think that any of them would have done that if they knew the seriousness of what happened. Who knew what and when. There's a difference between ball busting and kicking them when they're down. 

If it comes out that everyone knew the whole story, then yeah, it's super shitty. 

I'm looking at human psychology here and am assuming these guys aren't being shitty on purpose. At a worst case scenario, they didn't grasp the seriousness of what happened. Maybe I'm projecting a certain level of empathy on to people who don't deserve it. 

I look at the situation from a point of reason and ask "how does this happen?"  From a reasonable person's point of view

Edited October 29, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Chicago White Sox]

57 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

All the guys were basically kids. If we cancel everyone who has used gay as a derogatory thing at any point in their life, we would probably not interact with anyone. I think they probably had a hard time wrapping their heads around a big guy like Beach being sexually assaulted by Aldrich, who seems like a really little guy.  Players are macho and naïve. If it happened at this stage of their lives, there is reason to criticize. But the adults in the room are the ones to blame IMO. 

I think there are things we all have done or have acted at age 20 or 21 where if it happened again, we wouldn't act the same..'

One thing I would criticize a guy like Toews for is if he is lying now about what he knew and when he knew it. The great Coach Q got caught in a lie, and will never live it down.

I’m not asking to cancel him or strip his C.  And trust me, I’m 100% guilty of using words I wouldn’t use as an adult.  My clear distinction here is mocking someone for being sexually assaulted, which isn’t just “locker room” talk.  These guys clearly knew the Beach story and at least one guy lacked all compassion and actually ridiculed the kid for it.  This is like making fun of rape victim for being raped.  That is sadistic and goes beyond what’s acceptable in the high testosterone world of sports.  Again, I don’t think Toews should be canceled, but I do think people should seriously question him as a leader and his comments yesterday in regard to Bowman only further add to that.

[Jack Parkman]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not asking to cancel him or strip his C.  And trust me, I’m 100% guilty of using words I wouldn’t use as an adult.  My clear distinction here is mocking someone for being sexually assaulted, which isn’t just “locker room” talk.  These guys clearly knew the Beach story and at least one guy lacked all compassion and actually ridiculed the kid for it.  This is like making fun of rape victim for being raped.  That is sadistic and goes beyond what’s acceptable in the high testosterone world of sports.  Again, I don’t think Toews should be canceled, but I do think people should seriously question him as a leader and his comments yesterday in regard to Bowman only further add to that.

It's not "like" if they knew the whole story, it's what it IS. Kyle Beach is a victim of date rape. 

I don't think the players knew the whole story, because I don't think a reasonable human would do something that sick. 

In the high testosterone, toxic masculine world of sports locker rooms, with a lot of guys in their early to mid 20s, that either a) they didn't have the whole story or b) they didn't grasp the seriousness of what occurred. 

There were adults in the org that did, and they did nothing. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Chicago White Sox]

35 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

No, it's common male behavior to bust your teammates balls in a sports locker room. 

I don't think that they ridiculed him for being sexually assaulted. This is part of the reason why I think the players didn't know the whole story. I don't think that any of them would have done that if they knew the seriousness of what happened. Who knew what and when. There's a difference between ball busting and kicking them when they're down. 

If it comes out that everyone knew the whole story, then yeah, it's super shitty. 

I'm looking at human psychology here and am assuming these guys aren't being shitty on purpose. At a worst case scenario, they didn't grasp the seriousness of what happened. Maybe I'm projecting a certain level of empathy on to people who don't deserve it. 

Coach forcefully performs oral sex on player.  Story leaks out about said incident.  Unrelated player then taunts the victim and asks “did you like that blow job”?  How did this person not ridicule Beach for being sexually assaulted and how did they not know the whole story?  I guess he didn’t bring up the ejaculating on his back part of it, so I guess it’s proof of just “boys being boys”.  Again, Toews didn’t make the comment, but he should have protected the kid and it doesn’t sound like he did shit.  And that’s my biggest thing for the guy who is supposed to be the leader of the locker room.  I don’t blame him at all for being a 22 year old kid during a championship run and not alerting the authorities that a teammate was sexually assaulted.  But I do think he’s probably lying about when he found out and his Stan Bowman Stanning after getting canned food as highly insensitive and minimizes what Kyle Beach endured.  And I think he should have done more to protect the kid when he found out.  It doesn’t make him an evil person, but it does make me think he just may be a shitty leader.

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Coach forcefully performs oral sex on player.  Story leaks out about said incident.  Unrelated player then taunts the victim and asks “did you like that blow job”?  How did this person not ridicule Beach for being sexually assaulted and how did they not know the whole story?  I guess he didn’t bring up the ejaculating on his back part of it, so I guess it’s proof of just “boys being boys”.  Again, Toews didn’t make the comment, but he should have protected the kid and it doesn’t sound like he did shit.  And that’s my biggest thing for the guy who is supposed to be the leader of the locker room.  I don’t blame him at all for being a 22 year old kid during a championship run and not alerting the authorities that a teammate was sexually assaulted.  But I do think he’s probably lying about when he found out and his Stan Bowman Stanning after getting canned food as highly insensitive and minimizes what Kyle Beach endured.  And I think he should have done more to protect the kid when he found out.  It doesn’t make him an evil person, but it does make me think he just may be a shitty leader.

When you put it that way, yeah........whoever did that was shitty. 

I didn't even grasp this part until just now. 

EDIT: wait a sec....wasn't that said to Black Ace 1 in 2014 in the AHL and not Beach himself? 

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[South Side Hit Men]

6 hours ago, ron883 said:

Did you ever call anybody or anything gay in the 2000s?

LOL. Not sure if you held a job this millennium, or the last few decades of the prior one.

Can’t imagine anyone writing that on a whiteboard, at least in a professional environment.

Last type of slur I can recall at a job was a consultant telling a lame joke in the late 1990s and he was gone as a result.

Has nothing to do with “woke” or “politics”, but rather just being a decent human being.

 

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, South Side Hit Men said:

LOL. Not sure if you held a job this millennium, or the last few decades of the prior one.

Can’t imagine anyone writing that on a whiteboard, at least in a professional environment.

Last type of slur I can recall at a job was a consultant telling a lame joke in the late 1990s and he was gone as a result.

Has nothing to do with “woke” or “politics”, but rather just being a decent human being.

 

A sports locker room is not your normal workplace. The social environment is similar to hanging out with your buddies at a party. 

[South Side Hit Men]

40 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not asking to cancel him or strip his C.  And trust me, I’m 100% guilty of using words I wouldn’t use as an adult.  My clear distinction here is mocking someone for being sexually assaulted, which isn’t just “locker room” talk.  These guys clearly knew the Beach story and at least one guy lacked all compassion and actually ridiculed the kid for it.  This is like making fun of rape victim for being raped.  That is sadistic and goes beyond what’s acceptable in the high testosterone world of sports.  Again, I don’t think Toews should be canceled, but I do think people should seriously question him as a leader and his comments yesterday in regard to Bowman only further add to that.

We learned at an early age about sexual predators with Gacy’s arrest a few miles away, a friend who was sexually assaulted by a scout leader in a different parish, and of course others sexually abused by priests and others. This between the ages of 10-15.

One of the victims was mocked by a dumb ass. The douche taunter got his ass kicked (by someone other than the victim), and deservedly so. This “young adult” excuse for the players doesn’t fly, at least by by those who knew better as a pre-teen or teen. The C stands for coward, the A for asshole.

Edited October 29, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[South Side Hit Men]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

A sports locker room is not your normal workplace. The social environment is similar to hanging out with your buddies at a party. 

You need to find a new group of “buddies” if that is how they act or conduct themselves. 

[Kyyle23]

8 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

A sports locker room is not your normal workplace. The social environment is similar to hanging out with your buddies at a party. 

You don't have to explain this.  Everyone knows that a locker is a toxic masculine place where many lines are crossed.  But much like hanging out with your buddies at their place, if a rape happens there and every person knows, every single person will be viewed as someone who did nothing to stop it and as a coward.

[Jack Parkman]

10 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

You don't have to explain this.  Everyone knows that a locker is a toxic masculine place where many lines are crossed.  But much like hanging out with your buddies at their place, if a rape happens there and every person knows, every single person will be viewed as someone who did nothing to stop it and as a coward.

Again, I ask....what is their recourse? 

To go to the same people that have already decided to cover it up? 

To coerce a victim to go to the police and re live the trauma before he's ready?

The taunting stuff is shitty, no doubt. They deserve everything they get about it.  

The players are not above criticism, however they are not the moral equivalent of the FO.

The only thing the players had the power to stop was the harassment. Given the setup of training camp, it is unknown whether Hawks core players were around when this took place. 

The FO had the power to help Beach and stop Aldrich. They didn't. Not the same thing.  

Edited October 29, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

21 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

LOL. Not sure if you held a job this millennium, or the last few decades of the prior one.

Can’t imagine anyone writing that on a whiteboard, at least in a professional environment.

Last type of slur I can recall at a job was a consultant telling a lame joke in the late 1990s and he was gone as a result.

Has nothing to do with “woke” or “politics”, but rather just being a decent human being.

 

Homer Simpson called something gay on national TV in the 2000s. That's how common and acceptable that was. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Tony]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Again, I ask....what is their recourse? 

To go to the same people that have already decided to cover it up? 

To coerce a victim to go to the police and re live the trauma before he's ready?

The taunting stuff is shitty, no doubt. They deserve everything they get about it.  

The players are not above criticism, however they are not the moral equivalent of the FO. 

Again Jack...nuance. No one has said the players hold just as much blame as the front office. There are systems in place so "leadership" does act, and it doesn't just fall on the players. The Front Office absolutely failed. 

However, you're right that sports and the locker room are different than normal workplaces. In most workplaces, someone doesn't walk around with a giant C on their chest to tell everyone they are the captain of the team, they lead the room. 

It's your choice if you want to believe the players knew what happened or not. I tend to believe guys like Sopel, Boyton and the rest of the guys that have spoke up over the lines we've heard from Toews and Kane. One group has no reason to lie. The other side.....does. 

I'm not even that upset Toews and others didn't do more in the moment. As a 21-22 year old, even as the captain, I think it would be tough for him to go to the President of the team and say "Hey did you handle this?" I would have liked if that took place, but I'm trying to be fair and that would be tough. 

What is totally not acceptable is 11 years later, as a 33 year old veteran, Toews making it a point to go out of his way to defend Bowman and Al, to speak about their character and how much they did for him. Toews can go fuck himself for that. He totally lost me there. 

[Kyyle23]

11 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Again, I ask....what is their recourse? 

To go to the same people that have already decided to cover it up? 

To coerce a victim to go to the police and re live the trauma before he's ready?

The taunting stuff is shitty, no doubt. They deserve everything they get about it.  

The players are not above criticism, however they are not the moral equivalent of the FO.

The only thing the players had the power to stop was the harassment. Given the setup of training camp, it is unknown whether Hawks core players were around when this took place. 

The FO had the power to help Beach and stop Aldrich. They didn't. Not the same thing.  

You know what, I'm not gonna continue this 

[Jack Parkman]

8 minutes ago, Tony said:

Again Jack...nuance. No one has said the players hold just as much blame as the front office. There are systems in place so "leadership" does act, and it doesn't just fall on the players. The Front Office absolutely failed. 

However, you're right that sports and the locker room are different than normal workplaces. In most workplaces, someone doesn't walk around with a giant C on their chest to tell everyone they are the captain of the team, they lead the room. 

It's your choice if you want to believe the players knew what happened or not. I tend to believe guys like Sopel, Boyton and the rest of the guys that have spoke up over the lines we've heard from Toews and Kane. One group has no reason to lie. The other side.....does. 

I'm not even that upset Toews and others didn't do more in the moment. As a 21-22 year old, even as the captain, I think it would be tough for him to go to the President of the team and say "Hey did you handle this?" I would have liked if that took place, but I'm trying to be fair and that would be tough. 

What is totally not acceptable is 11 years later, as a 33 year old veteran, Toews making it a point to go out of his way to defend Bowman and Al, to speak about their character and how much they did for him. Toews can go fuck himself for that. He totally lost me there. 

We're on exactly the same page. The only question I have is what the players knew and how detailed. I believe they knew something happened. I question whether or not they knew the seriousness of what happened. 

Where have I ever defended Toews for his comments Wednesday? I said that they were abhorrent. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[Tony]

 

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

We're on exactly the same page. The only question I have is what the players knew and how detailed. I believe they knew something happened. I question whether or not they knew the seriousness of what happened. 

Where have I ever defended Toews for his comments Wednesday? I said that they were abhorrent. 

9 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yes, I can grasp nuance and understand complex arguments. 

They deserve all of the flak they get for defending Bowman. In the best light, it's tone deaf and insensitive. 

There's no excuse for saying that, but he's in denial. He cannot believe how much of a monster his buddy Stan is. (this is nuance and a complex argument btw)

At the end of the day, if the Hawks Sr. Management did the right thing, nobody is talking about this today. 

Right here, actually. 9 hours ago. 

 

[Jack Parkman]

11 minutes ago, Tony said:

 

Right here, actually. 9 hours ago. 

 

That is not a defense. I'm trying to figure out how in the fuck he could be so insensitive. 

It still doesn't make it right. 

Just because I understand why he said it doesn't make it acceptable. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Jack Parkman