Blake Snell and Yu Darvish traded to San Diego

[sullythered]

4 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

The Padres gave up a lot of talent though. Two of those dudes were significant international signings that have had immediate success in rookie ball. Caissie was highly regarded 2nd rounder. People were expecting more but it wasn't a straight salary dump. Cubs acquired some real talent. 

They acquired very raw, super young talent.  Basically lottery ticket prospects.  That's not at all in line with what they are outwardly saying, that they are going to do a "re-tooling" ala Boston, not rebuild.  Then they traded their most valuable piece for guys that, if they're super lucky, two of them pan out, and in maybe four or five years. 

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Honestly it reminds me of the Sox trading for Eloy pretty early in his US career.  It was one of those deals where he could have exploded on the scene, or he could have flopped, but his upside was there to make it worth while.  All four of the kids, especially the international ones, have the potential to be to 3 prospects in the Cubs system in a year or two's time.  They also have the potential to wash out.

That said, he'd already appeared in the Futures Game and there was a TON of hype on him.

It's really hard to compare him with a slew of Top 11-16 guys out of a very deep Padres system.   Those guys are much more likely to end up like Basabe or Victor Diaz before all is said and done.   Even the Top 75-100 guys like Mejia have a high bust rate, as Francisco was once considered the top catching prospect in all of baseball when he was in the Indians' system.   Now he's a cross between Miguel Olivo and Zack Collins.

I just think it's weird that some are defending the Cubs for going quantity over quality, when the evidence is overwhelming that going for 2-3 top prospects over a collection of 3-5 lower guys almost always tends to favor the former strategy over the latter one.

Edited December 31, 2020 by caulfield12

[Flash]

Now that we've seen the return and Cubs focus on young, high-upside guys who can play up the middle, what would a Sox package look like that would have topped the Padres package?  

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

Now that we've seen the return and Cubs focus on young, high-upside guys who can play up the middle, what would a Sox package look like that would have topped the Padres package?  

There really isn't one that doesn't include Kopech/Vaughn.  Vaughn would be blocked by any future deal for Rizzo...same reason they (well, also depends on fate of the DH in NL.)   Maybe he does make sense if they're completely cleaning house and Baez/Contreras/Bryant are all sent packing, but it's hard to imagine letting fan favorite Rizzo go, too?

Madrigal would have been superfluous with Hoerner/Happ.

They would basically have to completely empty the shelves of Tier B/C lower-level pitching prospects along with one headliner.

Crochet, obviously, would have been interesting to them as well, especially if they can dump Kimbrel (but also as a potential starter.)

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

There really isn't one that doesn't include Kopech/Vaughn.  Vaughn would be blocked by any future deal for Rizzo...same reason they (well, also depends on fate of the DH in NL.)   Maybe he does make sense if they're completely cleaning house and Baez/Contreras/Bryant are all sent packing, but it's hard to imagine letting fan favorite Rizzo go, too?

Madrigal would have been superfluous with Hoerner/Happ.

They would basically have to completely empty the shelves of Tier B/C lower-level pitching prospects along with one headliner.

Crochet, obviously, would have been interesting to them as well, especially if they can dump Kimbrel (but also as a potential starter.)

 

Don't think this comes close. The Cubs were obviously targeting up the middle position players. High level international young prospects with athletic ability and baseball abilities. I don't know the Sox system very well but doubtful we have 4 of those types of positions players. The Sox haven't exactly been a breeding ground for signing younger international CF's and SS's.

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Don't think this comes close. The Cubs were obviously targeting up the middle position players. High level international young prospects with athletic ability and baseball abilities. I don't know the Sox system very well but doubtful we have 4 of those types of positions players. The Sox haven't exactly been a breeding ground for signing younger international CF's and SS's.

They may not have had the young position players, but they do have young pitching in the form of Thompson and Kelley.

[bmags]

10 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

There really isn't one that doesn't include Kopech/Vaughn.  Vaughn would be blocked by any future deal for Rizzo...same reason they (well, also depends on fate of the DH in NL.)   Maybe he does make sense if they're completely cleaning house and Baez/Contreras/Bryant are all sent packing, but it's hard to imagine letting fan favorite Rizzo go, too?

Madrigal would have been superfluous with Hoerner/Happ.

They would basically have to completely empty the shelves of Tier B/C lower-level pitching prospects along with one headliner.

Crochet, obviously, would have been interesting to them as well, especially if they can dump Kimbrel (but also as a potential starter.)

 

This post is just ridiculous

[caulfield12]

By the way, the Padres despite having the a bottom five MLB local media market...are projected to run out a $162 million payroll in another pandemic interrupted season if they don’t make any more major moves.

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-market-size-nfl-mlb-nhl-nielsen-ratings/

Just once, can the White Sox even make it to $140 in 2021 or 2022?

 

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, bmags said:

This post is just ridiculous

Kopech + ?

Vaughn isn’t going to the Cubs unless they are planning to part with Rizzo or the NL goes to the DH.

Crochet has more value to the White Sox that he offers the Cubs.

Which leaves the package short unless they’re willing to empty out the entire next tier of pitching prospects. Collins, Sheets and all our minor league outfielders have negligible value, but let’s just say Adolfo for argument’s sake.

 

Leaving you Kopech, Stiever/Thompson/Kelley/Dahlquist (pick 3) and a lottery ticket in Adolfo.

Hahn simply can’t afford to give up that much young pitching in one trade if he doesn’t have the budget to go shopping on the open market.

Edited December 31, 2020 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

29 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

By the way, the Padres despite having the a bottom five MLB local media market...are projected to run out a $162 million payroll in another pandemic interrupted season if they don’t make any more major moves.

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-market-size-nfl-mlb-nhl-nielsen-ratings/

Just once, can the White Sox even make it to $140 in 2021 or 2022?

 

The Sox will be at $140M+ at some point in the near future, the problem is Reinsdorf will use COVID in 2021 and potentially a work stoppage in 2022 to be cautious about spending.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

30 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Kopech + ?

Vaughn isn’t going to the Cubs unless they are planning to part with Rizzo or the NL goes to the DH.

Crochet has more value to the White Sox that he offers the Cubs.

Which leaves the package short unless they’re willing to empty out the entire next tier of pitching prospects. Collins, Sheets and all our minor league outfielders have negligible value, but let’s just say Adolfo for argument’s sake.

 

Leaving you Kopech, Stiever/Thompson/Kelley/Dahlquist (pick 3) and a lottery ticket in Adolfo.

Hahn simply can’t afford to give up that much young pitching in one trade if he doesn’t have the budget to go shopping on the open market.

My god you are high.

[shago]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The Sox will be at $140M+ at some point in the near future, the problem is Reinsdorf will use COVID in 2021 and potentially a work stoppage in 2022 to be cautious about spending.

JR doesn’t use any excuse to be ‘cautious’ about spending, he is just cheap and runs the team purely for profit. 2005 was a fluke - they got lucky that the Count, Pods, Tadahito, Crazy Carl, etc. had good years while our core talent was peaking. 

[Chicago White Sox]

4 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

My god you are high.

I don’t get who is he building a trade for.  Is that supposed to be for Darvish?  If so, why is the price ridiculously higher than what the Padres actually paid?

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, shago said:

JR doesn’t use any excuse to be ‘cautious’ about spending, he is just cheap and runs the team purely for profit. 2005 was a fluke - they got lucky that the Count, Pods, Tadahito, Crazy Carl, etc. had good years while our core talent was peaking. 

He spends when there is a high degree of certainty that revenue will offset costs.  Look at our payrolls after the 2005 season when attendance was sky high and tell me that isn’t the case.  The problem is he doesn’t want to take on any financial risk, so until fans start showing up he won’t spend more than what he’s confident will be covered.

[Sarava]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t get who is he building a trade for.  Is that supposed to be for Darvish?  If so, why is the price ridiculously higher than what the Padres actually paid?

He seems to think one of the 4 lottery tickets the Cubs got back is equal to Kopech?? Weird

[shago]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

He spends when there is a high degree of certainty that revenue will offset costs.  Look at our payrolls after the 2005 season when attendance was sky high and tell me that isn’t the case.  The problem is he doesn’t want to take on any financial risk, so until fans start showing up he won’t spend more than what he’s confident will be covered.

Exactly, unlike other billionaire owners who are willing to spend/lose a little money when they have the opportunity to win - you made my point.

[Sarava]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

He spends when there is a high degree of certainty that revenue will offset costs.  Look at our payrolls after the 2005 season when attendance was sky high and tell me that isn’t the case.  The problem is he doesn’t want to take on any financial risk, so until fans start showing up he won’t spend more than what he’s confident will be covered.

Sad thing is - he turns 85 in less than 2 months. Does he understand he can't take it with him? Just flippin' go for it for once.

[Chicago White Sox]

24 minutes ago, shago said:

Exactly, unlike other billionaire owners who are willing to spend/lose a little money when they have the opportunity to win - you made my point.

Oh I agree with what you’re saying here.  I was just clarifying the difference between him not wanting to lose money vs. saying he’s in it to make profits.  I think he’s perfectly willing to break-even during competitive years, but he’s not going to proactively spend in hopes of accelerating winning.

[Chicago White Sox]

27 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Sad thing is - he turns 85 in less than 2 months. Does he understand he can't take it with him? Just flippin' go for it for once.

It truly is sad, but hopefully there is a pool in the sky filled with gold coins he can swim in for all eternity.

 

[bmags]

42 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t get who is he building a trade for.  Is that supposed to be for Darvish?  If so, why is the price ridiculously higher than what the Padres actually paid?

That was my point. He said sox don’t have a comparable package that doesn’t include Kopech/Vaughn. Then he makes one, but says it’s too much for Sox, even though it proves that we could make a similar package.

The real problem for Sox is just that a package of Ramos, Rodriguez, Bailey and Bush would both clear out a generation(not sure this is right word)  of positional prospects and also is weaker than the Padres offer in all likelihood.

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The Sox will be at $140M+ at some point in the near future, the problem is Reinsdorf will use COVID in 2021 and potentially a work stoppage in 2022 to be cautious about spending.

This is a key point. With Boras controlling the executive board of the players union there will most likely be some type odmf work stoppage. With the decreased revenue from last year, both the union and the owners would be wise to stockpile money.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

That was my point. He said sox don’t have a comparable package that doesn’t include Kopech/Vaughn. Then he makes one, but says it’s too much for Sox, even though it proves that we could make a similar package.

The real problem for Sox is just that a package of Ramos, Rodriguez, Bailey and Bush would both clear out a generation(not sure this is right word)  of positional prospects and also is weaker than the Padres offer in all likelihood.

Agreed.  I think Thompson would have to be involved at minimum (despite being a pitcher) plus whoever they view the most favorably of the three guys you mentioned.  Even then, there is probably more ceiling with the guys the Padres gave up and I think the Cubs are looking at a legit rebuild and are willing to gamble on prospects that are farther away but with significant upside. Unfortunately, our best positional prospects in this age / development group have lower ceilings in general since a lot of them are corner types.  And to your point, it potentially wipe out a wave of talent that I think it is crucial for replenishing the system.

[Dominikk85]

The padres really used the bad market for sellers. Yeah they gave up a lot of good talent but  they really only gave up one of their top6 prospects to get two top pitchers.

Sure one of the young guys they gave up could be the next tatis but they didn't give up a package like the sox got for sale or even just quintana but they really gave up one 60fv and a couple 40s to 45s albeit young ones with upside.

This is really a good market to buy in trades because teams are willing to sell low to get rid of salary.

Maybe the sox can also spin a trade without giving up madrigal, vaughn, kopech and crochet when they make a more quantity based package.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Dominikk85

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

The padres really used the bad market for sellers. Yeah they gave up a lot of good talent but  they really only gave up one of their top6 prospects to get two top pitchers.

Sure one of the young guys they gave up could be the next tatis but they didn't give up a package like the sox got for sale or even just quintana but they really gave up one 60fv and a couple 40s to 45s albeit young ones with upside.

This is really a good market to buy in trades because teams are willing to sell low to get rid of salary.

Maybe the sox can also spin a trade without giving up madrigal, vaughn, kopech and crochet when they make a more quantity based package.

The only guy that potentially makes some sense to pursue via trade is Musgrove.  Castillo & Gray are going to command packages we can’t afford at this time.  After them, we can probably just get what we need via free agency (#4 starter, closer, left-handed bat).  At least with Musgrove there is an argument to be made that he’s on the cusp of becoming a damn good #3 starter and is a tier above & beyond guys like Richards & Quintana.  Still not sure if I’d want to give up assets for him or simply sign one of those starters, but he’s a guy who might be had for younger prospects that  don’t factor into near-term roster decisions.  Still, I’m doubtful he’ll come cheap due his very low salary next year and control through 2022.

[bear_brian]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The Sox will be at $140M+ at some point in the near future, the problem is Reinsdorf will use COVID in 2021 and potentially a work stoppage in 2022 to be cautious about spending.

They are at $ 118M now. IF they add Hendriks (13M0) Quintana (10M) and La Stella (7M), they hit slightly under $150M. Not saying any of those moves will turn out, just spitballing based on the hamburger guy's conjecture.