Trade Whispers - Starting Pitchers

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Baseball reference shows him with .5 WAR in 29 games...which comes out to 2.5 WAR per season...as a 23 year old...at near zero cost.  The glory of the White Sox right now is that they have so many guys that will be going through growing pains that you won't even notice.  Robert and Eloy and Madrigal and Vaughan and Cease and Kopech and on and on can go through a bad month without it costing us because it is liking when they are having a good month they can be so good.   

Then why on Earth did they trade for Lynn? You’ve just told me this team isn’t ready to compete this year.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

ZIPs projected him for 1.7 in 2020.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2020-zips-projections-chicago-white-sox/

Kind of hard to build up WAR when you play in 29 games. 

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The projections have him between 1.8 and 2.4.  The Last team LaRussa managed won a WS with a 0.3 WAR SS and a 0.2 WAR 2B.

You added the second part later, so let’s note how different the league is today. The 2020 Dodgers had 9 position players and 10 pitchers who put up 0.5 fWAR in the shortened season. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Then why on Earth did they trade for Lynn? You’ve just told me this team isn’t ready to compete this year.

Where on earth did you draw that conclusion?  If you think this is a finished project youre more optimistic to me.  But that doesnt mean they shouldnt take a shot this year while hoping Moncada, Robert, Eloy, Vaughan and all the young pitchers take the next step. 

[RagahRagah]

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This is one I fundamentally disagree with. 4 of the last 5 years, the team that won the World Series has been a monster. 100+ wins, or on a pace that would get there if not for a virus. We do not have time for growing pains next year, whether that’s from pitching, 2b, DH, or whatever else.

You can keep telling yourself this, but it's wrong.

The fact you have to, on numerous occasions, compare a 29 game period to "2 years" shows that your argument has no merit.

And to suggest there is never room for a growing player on a championship team is just a blatant disregard of truth. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by RagahRagah

[Dick Allen]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Then why on Earth did they trade for Lynn? You’ve just told me this team isn’t ready to compete this year.

 You could make the case it was OK if he helps them win at least one playoff series as that could help them moving forward.

If not, it was taking a shot and failing.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Dick Allen

[SoxSteve]

MLB.com just did a nice write up on top first baseman in minors. Vaughn according them looks like a can't miss prospect from what I read and a clear number 1 on the list. Again I will take my chances with him and madrigal and wait to the all-star break to get a 4th- 5th starter if we need one. It makes all the sense in the world to go with Kopech, Cease,Lopez, Steiver, Lambert, Crochet( if he's not in the pen ) until the break and then if needed then go out and get someone. Should be bargains a plenty if we need to go that route. At least give Katz a chance to unlock something in these guys. Rather do that then start trading away our top prospects now,

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

You can keep telling yourself this, but it's wrong.

The fact you have to, on numerous occasions, compare a 29 game period to "2 years" shows that your argument has no merit.

And to suggest there is never room for a growing player on a championship team is just a blatant disregard of truth. 

It is not wrong to note that the World Series is now being won consistently by superteams. That should be the target.

If Madrigal gets us there, great. But if we are expecting multiple guys to have sophomore slumps and growing pains, then we need to be thinking in the long term with every move. Hendricks works great for that. Dunning for Lynn? Doesn’t.

[RagahRagah]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

It is not wrong to note that the World Series is now being won consistently by superteams. That should be the target.

If Madrigal gets us there, great. But if we are expecting multiple guys to have sophomore slumps and growing pains, then we need to be thinking in the long term with every move. Hendricks works great for that. Dunning for Lynn? Doesn’t.

Super teams? None of whom have anyone who is anything less than a superstar?

I don't know why you are so blatantly lying to yourself about so many things. 

And again... 20 games is not 2 years. Stop.

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

It is not wrong to note that the World Series is now being won consistently by superteams. That should be the target.

If Madrigal gets us there, great. But if we are expecting multiple guys to have sophomore slumps and growing pains, then we need to be thinking in the long term with every move. Hendricks works great for that. Dunning for Lynn? Doesn’t.

The world champion Nationals in 2019 had Brian Dozier at 2B. He put up a1.6 WAR.

[bmags]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

The world champion Nationals in 2019 had Brian Dozier at 2B. He put up a1.6 WAR.

All the more reason to shop him for a more dominant rotation. You can easily replace him with a Brian dozier

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

All the more reason to shop him for a more dominant rotation. You can easily replace him with a Brian dozier

That costs money. Might as well get the production for minimum or close for a few years.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

All the more reason to shop him for a more dominant rotation. You can easily replace him with a Brian dozier

Dozier was paid $9M in 2019. If we get similar production at that position for basically $9M less, that’s a big win.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

17 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

It is not wrong to note that the World Series is now being won consistently by superteams. That should be the target.

If Madrigal gets us there, great. But if we are expecting multiple guys to have sophomore slumps and growing pains, then we need to be thinking in the long term with every move. Hendricks works great for that. Dunning for Lynn? Doesn’t.

I mean just in the last 4 years, I wouldn’t consider the 2019 Nationals or 2017 Astros “superteams”. Before them, I wouldn’t consider those Royals or Giants teams superteams either.

[SoxBlanco]

39 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

You added the second part later, so let’s note how different the league is today. The 2020 Dodgers had 9 position players and 10 pitchers who put up 0.5 fWAR in the shortened season. 

Gun to your head, what do you predict Madrigal’s fWAR will be this year, assuming he’s a starter for the full year?

[RagahRagah]

39 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Where on earth did you draw that conclusion?  If you think this is a finished project youre more optimistic to me.  But that doesnt mean they shouldnt take a shot this year while hoping Moncada, Robert, Eloy, Vaughan and all the young pitchers take the next step. 

Trading Dunning for a "shot" where you aren't even gonna compliment Lynn is just stupid. 

[bmags]

22 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That costs money. Might as well get the production for minimum or close for a few years.

Not hard to find a 2 WAR second baseman. 

[Drake Is Our Leader]

Love Dunning but he was never going to be here. We are very win-now and he is coming back from injury. Was not going to be a 180 IP guy. You hire Tony LaRussa who might croak tomorrow..and you need a full starting staff that can go the whole year and then (most importantly) be there in the expanded playoffs

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

Not hard to find a 2 WAR second baseman. 

Shouldn’t be that hard to find a 2 WAR SP either. Wainwright was on pace for 3 fWAR last season and 2.2 fWAR the year before. Why trade cheap young talent when you can simply sign this guy for peanuts and likely looking at 1.5-2.0 fWAR out of the #5 spot?

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Shouldn’t be that hard to find a 2 WAR SP either. Wainwright was on pace for 3 fWAR last season and 2.2 fWAR the year before. Why trade cheap young talent when you can simply sign this guy for peanuts and likely looking at 1.5-2.0 fWAR out of the #5 spot?

Because he is 40 years old so yes it is harder to find a likely 2 WAR SP over grabbing Hanser Alberto or Cesar Hernandez or asking andrelton Simmons to play 2b.

 

[caulfield12]

55 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

It is not wrong to note that the World Series is now being won consistently by superteams. That should be the target.

If Madrigal gets us there, great. But if we are expecting multiple guys to have sophomore slumps and growing pains, then we need to be thinking in the long term with every move. Hendricks works great for that. Dunning for Lynn? Doesn’t.

We’re not quite the NFL, where there’s already a mini team rebellion in Miami because players project Tua to be incapable of approximating Mahomes, Allen, Watson, Jackson or even Russell Wilson.

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

Because he is 40 years old so yes it is harder to find a likely 2 WAR SP over grabbing Hanser Alberto or Cesar Hernandez or asking andrelton Simmons to play 2b.

 

If only we were talking about trading just Madrigal. People are talking about trading Madrigal as the second piece plus 3 other young MLB players for a guy with a career fWAR of 2.2 across parts of 3 seasons. It’s ridiculous. Keep the young guys and sign someone like Wainwright as a #5 placeholder for this season. If the team looks like a WS contender in July you can always make the big trade at that time once you have a better understanding of the team’s weaknesses. Hell, starting pitching might not even be the team’s biggest weakness if the young guys like Cease, Kopech, Stiever, and Crochet step up.

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

At least you agree I can project his performance this year for the full season. Those 0 WAR players win you a lot of titles.

LaStella had a war of .8 compared to Madrigal .5 according to MLB stats.  Not much for a 6.6 million salary differential.  Have you ever considered being a Yankee or Cubs fan?  When everything our team does is "bi***" worthy it can't really be much fun for you.  

[Sambuca]

Madrigal arguments going in ovals.

[Whisox05]