Trade Whispers - Starting Pitchers

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Not complaining or trying to attack you. All I said was you were cherry picking a few weaknesses but overall the White Sox still have a ways to go to catch the Astros 2017 team. 

The reason I am stating they are a super team is the fact they won 107, 103 and 101 games the past three full seasons, and appeared in four straight league championship series. Consider the White Sox have never won 101 games in their entire history, and won two pennants in the past century.

How rare is this accomplishment?

MLB Teams with 3 Consecutive 100 Win Seasons (1901-2020)

• 2017-2019 Houston Astros (COVID snuffed out a chance at a four peat)
• 2002-2004 New York Yankees
• 1997-1999 Atlanta Braves
• 1969-1971 Baltimore Orioles (Expansion)
• 1942-1944 Saint Louis Cardinals (World War II)
• 1929-1931 Philadelphia Athletics

MLB Teams with 4 or More Consecutive League Championship Appearances (1969-2020)

• 2017-2020 Houston Astros (1 World Series Championship, 1 AL Pennant)
• 2011-2014 Saint Louis Cardinals (1 World Series, 1 Pennant) 
• 1998-2001 New York Yankees (3 World Series Championships, 1 AL Pennant)
• 1991-1999 Atlanta Braves (1 World Series, 3 NL Pennants) (1994 cancelled - thank you Jerry)
• 1971-1975 Oakland Athletics (3 World Series Championships)

Note: The NY Giants (1921-1924) and NY Yankees (1936-1939; 1949-1953; 1955-1958 and 1960-1964) the two teams who reached four + consecutive WS pre LCS era.

I'd call Houston's reaching both lists the result of being a Super Team.

The 2017 Astros team was the worst of those three teams. Ironically, it’s the only season they won a World Series. What does that tell me? Get to the dance and anything can happen. This isn’t the NBA where a true super team is a lock for a title.

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The 2017 Astros team was the worst of those three teams. Ironically, it’s the only season they won a World Series. What does that tell me? Get to the dance and anything can happen. This isn’t the NBA where a true super team is a lock for a title.

But...out of the last 5 years, the title has gone to a 100 win (or 100 win pace for 2020) team 4 times. This is a trend too - if you're a 95 win team these days, there's a good chance you run into someone substantially better than you, and you have to pull an upset to get past them.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

21 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

But...out of the last 5 years, the title has gone to a 100 win (or 100 win pace for 2020) team 4 times. This is a trend too - if you're a 95 win team these days, there's a good chance you run into someone substantially better than you, and you have to pull an upset to get past them.

In this division, I’d be surprised if the Sox don’t win 100 games this season (assuming 162 game schedule).

[iWiN4PreP]

3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

In this division, I’d be surprised if the Sox don’t win 100 games this season (assuming 162 game schedule).

Nah. Super young team will go through hiccups like we saw in the 60 game season... and their rotation still has holes that a deep season will present (also one in which we don't just face the weak central teams constantly).

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

Nah. Super young team will go through hiccups like we saw in the 60 game season... and their rotation still has holes that a deep season will present (also one in which we don't just face the weak central teams constantly).

Won’t matter. Division is terrible and Sox improved while their two top contenders regressed.

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Won’t matter. Division is terrible and Sox improved while their two top contenders regressed.

Agreed.  We will improve at 3rd, 2nd, DH, LF, CF, RF, BP, and SP due to player development and new guys.  Slight regression is expected at 1st and catcher.  SS will be about the same.  Anything short of 100+ would be disappointing to me.  The regression in our division just makes the whole thing kind of easy.?  In spite of the current TL attitudes being frequently expressed...I think some of the lineup and in-game decisions will also add a few W's to the good guys as well.

[RagahRagah]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Won’t matter. Division is terrible and Sox improved while their two top contenders regressed.

Over the years we have found ourselves saying things like this at various times only to not even make the playoffs.

[YourWhatHurts]

 

6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Agreed.  We will improve at 3rd, 2nd, DH, LF, CF, RF, BP, and SP due to player development and new guys.  Slight regression is expected at 1st and catcher.  SS will be about the same.  Anything short of 100+ would be disappointing to me.  The regression in our division just makes the whole thing kind of easy.?  In spite of the current TL attitudes being frequently expressed...I think some of the lineup and in-game decisions will also add a few W's to the good guys as well.

Sox went 18-2 combined vs. DET and KC.  That won't happen again regardless, and those teams also will be better as their young pitching gets better.

Sox will be better than 2-8 vs CLE but also went 5-5 vs MIN

The Sox aren't going to be *that* much better than the Twins, and CLE will still give this team fits with their young pitching.  Sure they lost Lindor and Carrasco but they will get a full year of MacKenzie, plus whoever else they'll call up.  They'll still play us tough,

This is not the makeup of a 100-win team IMO, nothing close to it.  This is like a 88-93 win team in a quality division and maybe a 95-98 win team in this division.  Maybe they can hit 100 wins but I doubt it.  Not without serious growth from Cease and another SP addition.  And that's still assuming the guys who have been good, stay good and do not implode, and also it assumes the team is mostly healthy all year.

I won't laugh when the Keuchel/Lynn duo looks like 3/4 SPs instead of the top-end starters they are touted to be.  If the Sox want to be a juggernaut then they need to add a true ace to this rotation, *and* they need to see their young pitching develop.

[southsider2k5]

Soxtalks rules for forecasting:

1. All good Sox players will regress.

2. All formerly good players will stay bad.

3. All young players will not progress.

4. Whoever we trade for will instantly fall apart by putting on a Sox jersey.

5. Whoever we trade away will become good again.

6. If we trade away prospects,  they are slam dunk perennial all-stars.

7. Called up prospects will bust.

8. Free agent signings will regress to career worsts.

[ottawa_sox]

10 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Agreed.  We will improve at 3rd, 2nd, DH, LF, CF, RF, BP, and SP due to player development and new guys.  Slight regression is expected at 1st and catcher.  SS will be about the same.  Anything short of 100+ would be disappointing to me.  The regression in our division just makes the whole thing kind of easy.?  In spite of the current TL attitudes being frequently expressed...I think some of the lineup and in-game decisions will also add a few W's to the good guys as well.

Reading your thoughts is like having the experience of vicious, golf sized hailstones suddenly missing their mark.  The follow up of deep breathing and much needed relief is greatly appreciated.

[iWiN4PreP]

17 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

 

Sox went 18-2 combined vs. DET and KC.  That won't happen again regardless, and those teams also will be better as their young pitching gets better.

Sox will be better than 2-8 vs CLE but also went 5-5 vs MIN

The Sox aren't going to be *that* much better than the Twins, and CLE will still give this team fits with their young pitching.  Sure they lost Lindor and Carrasco but they will get a full year of MacKenzie, plus whoever else they'll call up.  They'll still play us tough,

This is not the makeup of a 100-win team IMO, nothing close to it.  This is like a 88-93 win team in a quality division and maybe a 95-98 win team in this division.  Maybe they can hit 100 wins but I doubt it.  Not without serious growth from Cease and another SP addition.  And that's still assuming the guys who have been good, stay good and do not implode, and also it assumes the team is mostly healthy all year.

I won't laugh when the Keuchel/Lynn duo looks like 3/4 SPs instead of the top-end starters they are touted to be.  If the Sox want to be a juggernaut then they need to add a true ace to this rotation, *and* they need to see their young pitching develop.

Thank you. Way too many are far too optimistic.

This division should be super easy to win, but these guys on here thinking we are winning 100+ games and becoming some super team are far off the mark.

[EloyJenkins]

If you think this is an 88 win team gtfo. Seriously. You don't deserve to be a fan. Horrible division. Mediocre AL and the best offense in our lifetime. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by EloyJenkins

[Chicago White Sox]

35 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Soxtalks rules for forecasting:

1. All good Sox players will regress.

2. All formerly good players will stay bad.

3. All young players will not progress.

4. Whoever we trade for will instantly fall apart by putting on a Sox jersey.

5. Whoever we trade away will become good again.

6. If we trade away prospects,  they are slam dunk perennial all-stars.

7. Called up prospects will bust.

8. Free agent signings will regress to career worsts.

You forgot the most important one:

9. All other contenders are perfect

[Jack Parkman]

39 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Soxtalks rules for forecasting:

1. All good Sox players will regress.

2. All formerly good players will stay bad.

3. All young players will not progress.

4. Whoever we trade for will instantly fall apart by putting on a Sox jersey.

5. Whoever we trade away will become good again.

6. If we trade away prospects,  they are slam dunk perennial all-stars.

7. Called up prospects will bust.

8. Free agent signings will regress to career worsts.

This would be hilarious if there wasn't a lot of truth to it. 

Welcome to White Sox baseball. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[RagahRagah]

36 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Soxtalks rules for forecasting:

1. All good Sox players will regress.

2. All formerly good players will stay bad.

3. All young players will not progress.

4. Whoever we trade for will instantly fall apart by putting on a Sox jersey.

5. Whoever we trade away will become good again.

6. If we trade away prospects,  they are slam dunk perennial all-stars.

7. Called up prospects will bust.

8. Free agent signings will regress to career worsts.

These are blanket statement bullet points. I agree with where you are going with some of them, but they don't contain substance. 

For example, there are good reasons to believe Dallas and Lance will regress. Our rotation definitely needs more to be all star caliber.

All JR has to really do is just bite the bullet and sign Bauer. Yet likely all the Sox will do is sign a cheap stopgap with little expectations and cast doubt. It sucks.

[RagahRagah]

19 minutes ago, EloyJenkins said:

If you think this is an 88 win team gtfo. Seriously. You don't deserve to be a fan. Horrible division. Mediocre AL and the best offense in our lifetime. 

Like I said, we've thought this way and have been wrong many times. Never underestimate the bad luck and ineptitude of this franchise.

Edited January 26, 2021 by RagahRagah

[EloyJenkins]

7 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

Like I said, we've thought this way and have been wrong many times. Never underestimate the bad luck and ineptitude of this franchise.

4 of 10 cy young candidates. The most complete young lineup In the league and arguably the best bullpen in team history. A new analytical pitching coach and as much as I hate to say it...one of the best coaches in modern history. This is NOT some random year. The cynicism is understood from past years, but to think this team is anything but a 95 win team and a threat for the world series is baffling. Ask the Twins fans how this off-season has gone...

Edited January 26, 2021 by EloyJenkins

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

These are blanket statement bullet points. I agree with where you are going with some of them, but they don't contain substance. 

For example, there are good reasons to believe Dallas and Lance will regress. Our rotation definitely needs more to be all star caliber.

All JR has to really do is just bite the bullet and sign Bauer. Yet likely all the Sox will do is sign a cheap stopgap with little expectations and cast doubt. It sucks.

They weren't supposed to be of substance. 

They were mocking a portion of the most ridiculous pessimists, who can only find the bad. There is a lot of reasons to be optimistic.  We have assloads of talent which should show progress as a whole, even if some regressions happen within that body of work.

But that is lost on many.

[RagahRagah]

7 minutes ago, EloyJenkins said:

4 of 10 cy young candidates. The most complete young lineup In the league and arguably the best bullpen in team history. A new analytical pitching coach and as much as I hate to say it...one of the best coaches in modern history. This is NOT some random year. The cynicism is understood from past years, but to think this team is anything but a 95 win team and a threat for the world series is baffling. Ask the Twins fans how this off-season has gone...

And yet they still have to play the games. On paper this means nothing. They have yet to prove what you are saying and actually perform to expectations.

And again, none of this changes the fact we need another starter.

We essentially have only made 2 additions this year. And one of those is admittedly an excellent one but will be taking over a spot that was already excellent last year (closer).

Lynn alone does not make this automatically a 95 win team, lol. And as has been said, he and another of our starters are likely to regress. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by RagahRagah

[Jerksticks]

6 minutes ago, EloyJenkins said:

4 of 10 cy young candidates. The most complete young lineup In the league and arguably the best bullpen in team history. A new analytical pitching coach and as much as I hate to say it...one of the best coaches in modern history. This is NOT some random year. The cynicism is understood from past years, but to think this team is anything but a 95 win team and a threat for the world series is baffling. Ask the Twins fans how this off-season has gone...

Absolutely.  Farm is juicy too. 

[RagahRagah]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

They weren't supposed to be of substance. 

They were mocking a portion of the most ridiculous pessimists, who can only find the bad. There is a lot of reasons to be optimistic.  We have assloads of talent which should show progress as a whole, even if some regressions happen within that body of work.

But that is lost on many.

Pessimism and realism are two different things. And sadly, reality has been very harsh to us as Sox fans for many years now.

Being mocked for basically being correct is not something that is going to affect those of us who realize this team has a LOT to prove thus year and that are legitimately reasons to fear the outcome should we actually be done adding.

[Jerksticks]

1 minute ago, RagahRagah said:

And yet they still have to play the games. On paper this means nothing. They have yet to prove what you are saying. 

And again, none of this changes the fact we need another starter.

We essentially have only made 2 additions this year. And one of those is admittedly an excellent one but will be taking over a spot that was already excellent last year (closer).

Lynn alone does not make this automatically a 95 win team, lol.

I actually think it does.  
 

I get your point if Lynn was an addition to a regular solid roster...but I don’t think you realize just how much talent THIS roster is dripping with.  Dude we might have the entire all star team, like all 26 guys

[EloyJenkins]

9 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

And yet they still have to play the games. On paper this means nothing. They have yet to prove what you are saying and actually perform to expectations.

And again, none of this changes the fact we need another starter.

We essentially have only made 2 additions this year. And one of those is admittedly an excellent one but will be taking over a spot that was already excellent last year (closer).

Lynn alone does not make this automatically a 95 win team, lol. And as has been said, he and another of our starters are likely to regress. 

So eaton replacing the biggest black hole this team has ever seen and Vaughn (hopefully) replacing negative value DH value aren't major improvements? 

Why the duck is Lynn going to regress? You don't just find spin rate and effectiveness out of nowhere. And news flash....Keuchel is really good. If anything why aren't you talking about the definite improved production out of moncada, Eloy, robert, madrigal and potentially giolito that is coming?

Edited January 26, 2021 by EloyJenkins

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

Pessimism and realism are two different things. And sadly, reality has been very harsh to us as Sox fans for many years now.

Being mocked for basically being correct is not something that is going to affect those of us who realize this team has a LOT to prove thus year and that are legitimately reasons to fear the outcome should we actually be done adding.

There is no more overused term than "realism" on a message board.  People who use it are just not rectified with the fact they are just pessimists looking to justify their pessimism. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, EloyJenkins said:

So eaton replacing the biggest black hole this team has ever seen and Vaughn (hopefully) replacing negative value DH value aren't major improvements? 

Why the duck is Lynn going to regress? You don't just find spin rate and effectiveness out of nowhere. And news flash....Keuchel is really good. If anythingwhy aren't you talking about 5mthe improved production out of moncada, Eloy, robert, madrigal and potentially giolito that is coming?

And even if Lynn regresses some, he is still a significant improvement over what we had last year.