Madrigal could be ready for opening day

[TheCommish]

You all remember the catch that Robert missed in CF in the playoffs, right? If he'd had caught that ball we may have won that series. Yes, Madrigal made an error in the first inning that would have prevented 2 runs, and he didn't score when he should have, but he wasn't the only Rookie that affected the outcome of the playoff games. 

He is a great hitter, how many players hit over .300 in MLB? In the last 3 years there were 8, 10, 9 players in the AL that hit over .300. I feel like Madrigal is almost guaranteed to do that, why is that as valuable as 30 HR? Don't more base hits also create runs? 

[fathom]

6 minutes ago, TheCommish said:

You all remember the catch that Robert missed in CF in the playoffs, right? If he'd had caught that ball we may have won that series. Yes, Madrigal made an error in the first inning that would have prevented 2 runs, and he didn't score when he should have, but he wasn't the only Rookie that affected the outcome of the playoff games. 

He is a great hitter, how many players hit over .300 in MLB? In the last 3 years there were 8, 10, 9 players in the AL that hit over .300. I feel like Madrigal is almost guaranteed to do that, why is that as valuable as 30 HR? Don't more base hits also create runs? 

I don’t recall Robert dropping anything in playoffs

[RagahRagah]

7 minutes ago, TheCommish said:

You all remember the catch that Robert missed in CF in the playoffs, right? If he'd had caught that ball we may have won that series. Yes, Madrigal made an error in the first inning that would have prevented 2 runs, and he didn't score when he should have, but he wasn't the only Rookie that affected the outcome of the playoff games. 

He is a great hitter, how many players hit over .300 in MLB? In the last 3 years there were 8, 10, 9 players in the AL that hit over .300. I feel like Madrigal is almost guaranteed to do that, why is that as valuable as 30 HR? Don't more base hits also create runs? 

Pffft, don't you know that good players never make errors, even in their rookie seasons?

[zisk]

15 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

No shit.  Kid is the dumbest "smart player" I ever saw.  Guess they just give that label to you if you're 5-7" and on the "freedom fighter" color tone scale.

what an asshole
 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

He's a low impact player.  I would be thrilled to see someone else overvalue his limited skillset but I don't see that happening.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

At the plate, in the small (no pun intended) sample size, you are correct. However, he cost the team by not following his coaches on multiple occasions resulting in bad outs on the basepaths, including the time he got injured running through the stop sign, getting gunned out at third by miles, and getting injured in the process.

Dumb on so many levels:  https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/nick-madrigal-exits-white-sox-game-apparent-injury-after-slide-third

Not sure on the injury play he ran through a stop sign. I have watched the video and read the stories but I can't find any that said he ran through a stop sign. He also wasn't out by a mile but he did make mistakes on that play. With no outs he made the 1st out at 3rd base. That is a no no. The hit was a bullet , usually hard to advance on a bullet. Ultimately the decision he made was probably based on that Avi playing CF was shaded to the right side of 2nd and the hit was to the left of 2nd. However he closed the gap quickly fielded the ball cleanly and made a perfect one hop throw with his above average arm.

So everything considered he has to remind himself ahead of time that he was mostly in a situation where he shouldn't have been thinking about going to 3rd in the 1st place. Instead of using instincts to make a decision he should be doing some advanced baseball thinking about situation, number of outs and legitimate reasons where he could go to 3rd on a single which wouldn't be a bullet hit to the left side of 2nd with an OF known to possess a strong arm.

He did run through a stop sign on an out at home in the Pittsburgh series and also in that series tried to advance to 3rd on a GB to SS and was gunned down. Dumb plays no doubt . It's hard to adjust to your own limitations when they have worked in the past but he is playing with the big boys now . He will learn but overall he will be a good base runner once he starts thinking ahead and realizes that advanced thinking will outweigh instant decisions based on previously reliable baseball instincts.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

2 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

He's a low impact player.  I would be thrilled to see someone else overvalue his limited skillset but I don't see that happening.  

Yeah, he is so limited because he can't hit home runs

[Balta1701]

55 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Dumb plays no doubt . It's hard to adjust to your own limitations when they have worked in the past but he is playing with the big boys now . He will learn but overall he will be a good base runner once he starts thinking ahead and realizes that advanced thinking will outweigh instant decisions based on previously reliable baseball instincts.

Just so someone says this...if Tim Anderson or Luis Robert came up and made dumb baserunning plays, or misplayed a ball in the outfield I wouldn't really be that mad or be surprised. Rookies are supposed to make dumb baserunning plays, but you're ok with that because they learn from them and in the meanwhile they're hitting 30 home runs or whatever they're doing in year 1, or at least they turn into an MVP candidate in a couple years and that's the payoff for working through the struggles.

The problem with Madrigal is...he has one strong tool, making contact with the baseball, but little power. That means, if he comes up and struggles on defense because he's a rookie, struggles with baserunning with a rookie,  his value overall is pretty limited. If he was a 9th round pick, made it to the big leagues, and that was his profile, again I wouldn't be mad. 

But this is a number 4 overall pick. We knew he didn't have power, we knew his hit tool was strong. That doesn't profile to a number 4 pick...without the defense, baserunning, and frankly - not having to make the excuse that "he's a rookie". The reason he has the extra focus is that a player with a strong hit tool, but who doesn't steal bases, needs Marcus Semien level work to become a good defender, has no power, and makes plenty of mental mistakes his first few years that hurt his team - that is a 9th round pick, not a #4 overall pick. 

He was coming out of a College World Series level program. He was supposed to be baseball smart - not just because he's a short white guy, but because if the team has to wait years for him to learn how to make those basic decisions, there's no way on Earth you should have drafted him that high. It's not like there was no chance to see video on him or scout him.

If he can't be a solid baserunner right now, or a solid defender right now, if he's making those mental mistakes right now,  then this team really should trade him now, because a team that is a couple years away will be a better place for him to work through those problems.

[flavum]

Madrigal was pick 4. Vaughn 3.

Both will be getting rings as everyday players with the Sox. Enjoy the show.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

38 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Yeah, he is so limited because he can't hit home runs

He's also limited defensively, on the base paths, athletically and physically with zero remaining projection.  It's just a very limited and average profile and if another teams wants to overvalue bleeders, dribblers and gernades I'm all for it.  

Edited January 6, 2021 by Harold's Leg Lift
typo

[tray]

Our eight starting position players  might be one of the best in White Sox history.

This is an awesome team from top to bottom.  They are going to destroy a lot of pitchers. Can't wait for Spring Training.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Just so someone says this...if Tim Anderson or Luis Robert came up and made dumb baserunning plays, or misplayed a ball in the outfield I wouldn't really be that mad or be surprised. Rookies are supposed to make dumb baserunning plays, but you're ok with that because they learn from them and in the meanwhile they're hitting 30 home runs or whatever they're doing in year 1, or at least they turn into an MVP candidate in a couple years and that's the payoff for working through the struggles.

The problem with Madrigal is...he has one strong tool, making contact with the baseball, but little power. That means, if he comes up and struggles on defense because he's a rookie, struggles with baserunning with a rookie,  his value overall is pretty limited. If he was a 9th round pick, made it to the big leagues, and that was his profile, again I wouldn't be mad. 

But this is a number 3 overall pick. We knew he didn't have power, we knew his hit tool was strong. That doesn't profile to a number 3 pick...without the defense, baserunning, and frankly - not having to make the excuse that "he's a rookie". The reason he has the extra focus is that a player with a strong hit tool, but who doesn't steal bases, needs Marcus Semien level work to become a good defender, has no power, and makes plenty of mental mistakes his first few years that hurt his team - that is a 9th round pick, not a #3 overall pick. 

He was coming out of a College World Series level program. He was supposed to be baseball smart - not just because he's a short white guy, but because if the team has to wait years for him to learn how to make those basic decisions, there's no way on Earth you should have drafted him that high. It's not like there was no chance to see video on him or scout him.

If he can't be a solid baserunner right now, or a solid defender right now, if he's making those mental mistakes right now,  then this team really should trade him now, because a team that is a couple years away will be a better place for him to work through those problems.

It took Anderson 3 years and over 1400 AB's to become the player he is now offensively and he made plenty of fielding errors also. Lots of mistakes in those 3 years hitting and fielding. He obviously had some tools strong arm very fast but plenty of toolsy guys never make it. Below average OPS+ for those 3 years.

Luis Robert bat to balls skills not so great so also not exactly a finished product hopefully. Not good at the wall. Should get better there too. He had almost a month long slump where he couldn't even hit hittable fastballs fouling them off and popping them up instead of crushing them like he did in August. OPS+ finished at 101.

Hey guess what Nick Madrigal had an OPS,wRC+ and OPS+ higher than his fellow rookie Luis Robert. Of course I am not going to say Madrigal will have the same impact in the future or was worth as much as Robert in their rookie years. The point is that each have their strengths and should have more value going forward than they did their rookie seasons. Each one is capable of increasing their WAR by 2 or 3 next year with Robert obviously the higher ceiling guy who could increase his WAR by 4 or 5.

[poppysox]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It took Anderson 3 years and over 1400 AB's to become the player he is now offensively and he made plenty of fielding errors also. Lots of mistakes in those 3 years hitting and fielding. He obviously had some tools strong arm very fast but plenty of toolsy guys never make it. Below average OPS+ for those 3 years.

Luis Robert bat to balls skills not so great so also not exactly a finished product hopefully. Not good at the wall. Should get better there too. He had almost a month long slump where he couldn't even hit hittable fastballs fouling them off and popping them up instead of crushing them like he did in August. OPS+ finished at 101.

Hey guess what Nick Madrigal had an OPS,wRC+ and OPS+ higher than his fellow rookie Luis Robert. Of course I am not going to say Madrigal will have the same impact in the future or was worth as much as Robert in their rookie years. The point is that each have their strengths and should have more value going forward than they did their rookie seasons. Each one is capable of increasing their WAR by 2 or 3 next year with Robert obviously the higher ceiling guy who could increase his WAR by 4 or 5.

Thank you...all good points.  It gets exhausting needing to defend a rookie who has reached the big club at supersonic speed and with excellent results.  

[Balta1701]

18 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It took Anderson 3 years and over 1400 AB's to become the player he is now offensively and he made plenty of fielding errors also. Lots of mistakes in those 3 years hitting and fielding. He obviously had some tools strong arm very fast but plenty of toolsy guys never make it. Below average OPS+ for those 3 years.

Luis Robert bat to balls skills not so great so also not exactly a finished product hopefully. Not good at the wall. Should get better there too. He had almost a month long slump where he couldn't even hit hittable fastballs fouling them off and popping them up instead of crushing them like he did in August. OPS+ finished at 101.

Hey guess what Nick Madrigal had an OPS,wRC+ and OPS+ higher than his fellow rookie Luis Robert. Of course I am not going to say Madrigal will have the same impact in the future or was worth as much as Robert in their rookie years. The point is that each have their strengths and should have more value going forward than they did their rookie seasons. Each one is capable of increasing their WAR by 2 or 3 next year with Robert obviously the higher ceiling guy who could increase his WAR by 4 or 5.

But for Madrigal, what will it take to increase his WAR by 2 or 3 next year? It won't be because he hits 10 extra home runs or his batting average goes up by 30 points (frankly, over a full season, that still seems likely to go down rather than up). Rather, it must be because he rapidly improved on his defense and baserunning and eliminated the bonehead mistakes. 

If 29 games this year are an aberration, that's something we can tolerate. But there are zero excuses past day 1 of next year. He was drafted to be ready right now. Your last line implies you believe he's ready to solve those problems right now - you didn't say you were ok with him being a 0 WAR player for the next 3 years as long as he's a 3 win player in 2025. That's the entire point here, and why defense and baserunning are getting a focus. They need to be better now. 

The Anderson comparison is actually quite vital here. Tim Anderson had 199 community college plate appearances before he was drafted after playing football beforehand and that was the sum of his recorded baseball statistics. Nick Madrigal has been playing baseball all his life, had 501 recorded plate appearances in High School, was drafted in the 17th round out of High School, and had 670 plate appearances at Oregon State. Nick Madrigal should be better right now than what we saw last season.

[RagahRagah]

1 hour ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Yeah, he is so limited because he can't hit home runs

Aside from Moncada, I dunno if there is a subject on this forum I have seen more bad takes on.

He made dumb mistakes in his rookie year. Therefore, apparently he will never learn from those mistakes? Because... he's short? Damn short people!

Yeesh. To say there are a lot of things people aren't taking into consideration is an understatement.  I do believe this is a very intelligent message board but sometimes it's almost as if no one has even experienced things in life before. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by RagahRagah

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Using Anderson and Robert as examples for Madrigal is like using a Lamborghini and a Ferrari as an exapmle for a Honda Civic.  

[fathom]

Just now, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Using Anderson and Robert as examples for Madrigal is like using a Lamborghini and a Ferrari as an exapmle for a Honda Civic.  

Yeah just shook my head at that. Robert is a physical freak and Anderson was raw as can be.  As you said, if someone overvalues Madrigal, don’t be afraid to pull the trigger.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Using Anderson and Robert as examples for Madrigal is like using a Lamborghini and a Ferrari as an exapmle for a Honda Civic.  

Nick Madrigal coming up last year and being a below average baserunner and fielder and making a number of mental errors is like buying a brand new Honda Civic, taking it to a mechanic, and being told the engine won't start, you need a new transmission, one tire is completely worn out, the battery leaked and melted its way through to the ground, and two of the doors fell off. In which case, you are probably more likely to suspect something is wrong with your mechanic. 

If the Civic drove you successfully around town last year, we would not be having this conversation. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

But for Madrigal, what will it take to increase his WAR by 2 or 3 next year? It won't be because he hits 10 extra home runs or his batting average goes up by 30 points (frankly, over a full season, that still seems likely to go down rather than up). Rather, it must be because he rapidly improved on his defense and baserunning and eliminated the bonehead mistakes. 

If 29 games this year are an aberration, that's something we can tolerate. But there are zero excuses past day 1 of next year. He was drafted to be ready right now. Your last line implies you believe he's ready to solve those problems right now - you didn't say you were ok with him being a 0 WAR player for the next 3 years as long as he's a 3 win player in 2025. That's the entire point here, and why defense and baserunning are getting a focus. They need to be better now. 

I don't think its wise to focus on such an abbreviated season of fielding and base runner stats. Yes they were glaring mistakes but the season so short that we couldn't see how he could improve. If the 29 games can be tolerated as an aberration I don't see an awful lot of that tolerance in your posts. I would not be very tolerate of a 3 years sample size of 0 WAR.

I can defend Madrigal and yet at the same time understand those who knock him or want to trade him as I myself have suggested just as I have suggested that Crochet is highly over rated by our fanbase based on a few innings of sample size and should also be considered as tradebait. There are plenty of reason to doubt both going forward or to believe in both. The only reason Crochet is valued higher than Madrigal is K's while pitching at 101 MPH is valued a lot more than a .340 BA based on dinks and bloops even though those dinks and bloops were sustained for a lot longer than Crochets sample. It's a lot more appealing to the eye to blow guys away than to dribble weak singles up the middle and get hits with 2 strikes. Crochet had to do one hing and do it well for 6 innings and he did all except for that pesky injury thing once again. Madrigal had to make contact get hits, run the bases and field his position and apparently some won't be happy until he also shows some power all while having a bum shoulder all year .

[RagahRagah]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Nick Madrigal coming up last year and being a below average baserunner and fielder and making a number of mental errors is like buying a brand new Honda Civic, taking it to a mechanic, and being told the engine won't start, you need a new transmission, one tire is completely worn out, the battery leaked and melted its way through to the ground, and two of the doors fell off. In which case, you are probably more likely to suspect something is wrong with your mechanic. 

If the Civic drove you successfully around town last year, we would not be having this conversation. 

Wow, really? Comparing people to cars is so laughable.

Nick is a human being, not a fucking car (and even products, like cars, can be flawed or faulty out of the gate anyway). He was a rookie, who had a lot of hype on him, who probably still has jitters, who made some mistakes while hitting .340 in his first year. Yet what part is everyone focusing on?

Why is Soxtalk so ignorant on this subject? This is just a basic concept of life, not even actually related to baseball. As if Nick can't improve?

Christ almighty.

Edited January 6, 2021 by RagahRagah

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Using Anderson and Robert as examples for Madrigal is like using a Lamborghini and a Ferrari as an exapmle for a Honda Civic.  

That was brought up by the guy not defending Madrigal. The point I made was rookies have to improve and neither Robert, Madrigal nor TA showed they were even close to being complete players  and had/have plenty of room to grow.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't think its wise to focus on such an abbreviated season of fielding and base runner stats. Yes they were glaring mistakes but the season so short that we couldn't see how he could improve. If the 29 games can be tolerated as an aberration I don't see an awful lot of that tolerance in your posts. I would not be very tolerate of a 3 years sample size of 0 WAR.

I can defend Madrigal and yet at the same time understand those who knock him or want to trade him as I myself have suggested just as I have suggested that Crochet is highly over rated by our fanbase based on a few innings of sample size and should also be considered as tradebait. There are plenty of reason to doubt both going forward or to believe in both. The only reason Crochet is valued higher than Madrigal is K's while pitching at 101 MPH is valued a lot more than a .340 BA based on dinks and bloops even though those dinks and bloops were sustained for a lot longer than Crochets sample. It's a lot more appealing to the eye to blow guys away than to dribble weak singles up the middle and get hits with 2 strikes. Crochet had to do one hing and do it well for 6 innings and he did all except for that pesky injury thing once again. Madrigal had to make contact get hits, run the bases and field his position and apparently some won't be happy until he also shows some power all while having a bum shoulder all year .

Dude what the bleeping bleep?

No. Not one bit. The bolded could not be more wrong.

We are having this conversation because he was incredibly bad at running the bases and was poor at fielding his position. I can deal without the power if the other things you said were true. I cannot give him credit for things he wasn't good at. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

That was brought up by the guy not defending Madrigal. The point I made was rookies have to improve and neither Robert, Madrigal nor TA showed they were even close to being complete players  and had/have plenty of room to grow.

And the point in response is that Nick Madrigal should have been a nearly complete player by the time he came up. This is his current scouting report at the WhiteSox homepage, praising the things I'm focusing on that were missing from his game last year, including his baseball IQ.

Quote

Madrigal does have plus speed and knows how to use it, so he enhances his offensive profile with basestealing ability. His high baseball IQ is obvious in the field as well, where he's a potential Gold Glover at second base. He has the hands and actions to play shortstop, though his fringy arm is better suited for second.

https://www.mlb.com/prospects/whitesox/nick-madrigal-663611

[RagahRagah]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Dude what the bleeping bleep?

No. Not one bit. The bolded could not be more wrong.

We are having this conversation because he was incredibly bad at running the bases and was poor at fielding his position. I can deal without the power if the other things you said were true. I cannot give him credit for things he wasn't good at. 

In his rookie year. Lol.

Again, the car comparison is just staggeringly ridiculous.

[Balta1701]

Just now, RagahRagah said:

In his rookie year. Lol.

Again, the car comparison is just staggeringly ridiculous.

As long as you can promise me that you will be calling for his head if he's struggling on defense and with baserunning mistakes in May of next year, I will give him a pass on his rookie year. That's the biggest point - he doesn't get 4 years to develop at those things. He needs to be good at them right now. Will you join me in that agreement?