Student Loan Debt

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That's an awful lot of work for very fluid situations. Maybe that's where these graduates can work!

Not really. What do you think mortgage loan underwriters do all day? They do this type of work.

If a student wants to borrow, then they'd have to show that they'll be able to repay. If they change their major without notifying the lender, they can be cutoff. It really isn't that hard, IMO.

[Two-Gun Pete]

10 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Not sure where those PT stats came from but they aren't realistic in the last year. No one is getting that now. We are getting ready for a massive down turn and our graduates are having trouble finding jobs.

It said May, 2020. I'm guessing that they pull this info from the IRS; all taxpayers have to report their job title. But the data is out there.

At the same time, the downturn is a very real reason for borrowing to be capped in some measure. As currently comprised, there is basically no limit to borrowing, other than  what a school feels like charging.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[ptatc]

44 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

It said May, 2020. I'm guessing that they pull this info from the IRS; all taxpayers have to report their job title. But the data is out there.

At the same time, the downturn is a very real reason for borrowing to be capped in some measure. As currently comprised, there is basically no limit to borrowing, other than  what a school feels like charging.

I don't think there should be an artificial cap though. If they really want to go to a school that's going to charge that, so be it. There are plenty of affordable schools they can go to. As you said start off at JUCO then go to a directional school. Northern, Southern. Or better yet go to a border state school where they give Illinois students breaks.

It can be done they just need to actually look, instead of going to the high priced one. 

[he gone.]

Universities are corporations and investment funds masquerading as education. 

There's a few ways to fix.

a) technology, then social. the technology is there. isn't it MIT or some well regarded college that post their classes online for free? I thought some college does. Technology allows for professors to post and broadcast their lectures. Tests are tests. You can easily recreate the educational aspect of college via online courses. Technology is the great deflationary force. 

b) however that doesn't fix the social aspect. It doesn't fix the corporations and society that force kids to have these degrees. And it doesn't fix the social aspect of "the best 4 years of your life". There's a lot of growing up that is very valuable in college and very beneficial. It is a nice breakaway stage where kids are learning to be on their own and maturing away from their parents. Making mistakes. 

c) take away the guaranteed loans. That's very true. Goodbye Eastern IL, Western IL, goodbye many, many state schools. those schools are surviving on the fringes already. They will disappear. It's a true free market and likely you see college graduations drop ... which at the end of the day doesn't much matter in society to be honest. There are generally a few movers in the world that create and a bunch of minions that follow. LIkely taking away the lower tier schools doesn't mean you're eliminating much. The movers still move regardless. They'll do it without college or with college. And the same with the followers. The numbers drop and I guess you can see say we have a less rounded country. And maybe. But not by that much. 

d) make college free. I mean - it sounds good. But nothing that is handled by government is efficient. You dislike the system now? Good luck. Government contracts = free money and higher margins. Schools would become even less incentivized and poor. Sure now you can say half your population is educated, but in reality, they're not much better off. 

e) in regards to student loans. you can fix the past problem by forgiving it all, but that doesn't fix the future problem

 

There's so many more layered arguments in there, but Sox game is about to start. 

[he gone.]

57 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Not really. What do you think mortgage loan underwriters do all day? They do this type of work.

If a student wants to borrow, then they'd have to show that they'll be able to repay. If they change their major without notifying the lender, they can be cutoff. It really isn't that hard, IMO.

mortgage underwriters are computer programs w/ limited human checks. hell commercial insurance is basically all raters and computer systems. humans do very little

[Texsox]

4 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

1. Good. Nothing more eyes-rolling-worthy than someone whose experience is out of touch with today's realities.

2. Agreed that not everyone needs college. But, for those that do go to college, there has to be a better answer than borrowing to pay for 100 level humanities courses. I mean, one can learn how to think at CLC, CDC, Joliet JC, Moraine Valley, or Wright college, can't they?

3. They've tried counseling, and it doesn't work. If folks are going to borrow, it has to be tied to an ability to repay, or folks can get stuck in debt hell. Also, borrowing has to be capped somehow, or else there will be those that will over-extend themselves.

1. LOL Ok. Unless you are a high school senior you are out of touch. So let’s end the conversation. You are less qualified today than yesterday to discuss this, tomorrow you will be even more out of touch. You also can’t learn from experience. You can’t learn from watching others make mistakes. There is nothing you can learn that will help you to better understand this. Congratulations on peaking at such a young age.
 

 

 

 

[greg775]

On 1/26/2021 at 9:51 AM, cws0591 said:

I have really been torn on this topic. I have student loan debt. I also feel like I did everything right up to this point and if debt is forgiven I will be punished. Went to a community college for two years. paid out of pocket. Went to Niu for my Bachelors. Fafsa loans would only cover about 70% of my tuition so I worked two jobs while in college to pay the remaining 30%. absolutely this affected both my ability to take on internships(I believe my biggest mistake) and also do school activities outside of going to class. When I finished school I threw all of my excess funds from my job and also a pretty decent investment portfolio I built up at my 6.5 and 5.5 interest rate loans. paid those off. I still owe right around 20k and thank god for the covid moratorium on those loans because living was very tight with the additional 260 a month payment for those remaining loans. If there is loan forgiveness I will absolutely be upset about grinding away and causing my self short-term hardship. But its the right thing to do.

This is a huge issue. Tons of people worked 3 jobs through college or went to juco and saved up money they earned working at Jewel or a gas station or a steak house, somewhere 50 hours a week. If government just forgave all student loan debt, how fair is that to the people who worked their butts off to make it thru school.

I truly wish those with 50,000 to 100,000 dollars or more student loan debt could get it forgiven at the expense of colleges who have charged way too much for many years now. Not sure the solution but the solution is not to forgive debt of some people and not throw some money to the folks who paid off their own huge debts. It's not fair. I know life isn't fair. ...

Edited June 9, 2021 by greg775

[Texsox]

So in the1980s how would you have loaned someone who wanted to be an app developer? Kids are going to school today who will be needed to work shops that haven’t been invented yet. 
 

On the plus side Marx is smiling. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

WJS Article on Student Debt

Here's that liberal rag, the Wall Street Journal, on student debt. Its a good read, and gets into how the schools, the government, and lenders convinced themselves that allowing student debt to pile up was a good idea.

It also gets into how guaranteeing student loans, without considering an ability to repay, contributed to the debt crisis. It also speaks to the inefficiency of colleges (as businesses) as well.

So yeah, Marx would smile, since the WSJ is so liberal.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[raBBit]

5 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

WJS Article on Student Debt

Here's that liberal rag, the Wall Street Journal, on student debt. Its a good read, and gets into how the schools, the government, and lenders convinced themselves that allowing student debt to pile up was a good idea.

It also gets into how guaranteeing student loans, without considering an ability to repay, contributed to the debt crisis. It also speaks to the inefficiency of colleges (as businesses) as well.

So yeah, Marx would smile, since the WSJ is so liberal.

I can't get through the paywall. Does it state when the $10k in student relief will be applied to student loan balances?

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, raBBit said:

I can't get through the paywall. Does it state when the $10k in student relief will be applied to student loan balances?

You want a government handout?

But as to your question, I think it's coming as soon as the check from Mexico for the wall clears.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Dick Allen

[raBBit]

37 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You want a government handout?

But as to your question, I think it's coming as soon as the check from Mexico for the wall clears.

For my student loans? Yes I do. I was promised one.

Not sure why the response is personal or what Mexico has to do with it. I was pretty excited about the 10k of relief. Just want to understand when it takes effect in my account. Hopefully before the COVID forbearance elapses.

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, raBBit said:

For my student loans? Yes I do. I was promised one.

Not sure why the response is personal or what Mexico has to do with it. I was pretty excited about the 10k of relief. Just want to understand when it takes effect in my account. Hopefully before the COVID forbearance elapses.

Right.

[illinilaw08]

7 minutes ago, raBBit said:

For my student loans? Yes I do. I was promised one.

Not sure why the response is personal or what Mexico has to do with it. I was pretty excited about the 10k of relief. Just want to understand when it takes effect in my account. Hopefully before the COVID forbearance elapses.

You weren't promised one.  Biden campaigned on it - but he needs Congress to pass it (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/27/student-loan-forgiveness-schumer-warren-pressley-urge-biden-to-extend-payment-pause.html).  Some Senate Democrats are pushing for up to $50k by executive order (same article as the last one).  The Department of Education has allegedly been working on a memo for a number of months on whether the Biden administration has authority to do that without Congressional consent  (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/white-house-promised-memo-biden-s-authority-cancel-student-debt-n1268681).  Republicans don't seem particularly interested in student loan forgiveness (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/10/us/politics/biden-student-loans.html; https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-congress-student-loan-forgiveness-110034729.html).

So, if you want student loan forgiveness (I certainly do for the last little bit I have), you either need to (a) hope the Department of Education memo concludes Biden can do it unilaterally (and Biden actually goes ahead and does it); or (b) hope a couple Republicans decide student loan forgiveness would be a good thing.

Personally, I think the can is going to be kicked down the road - interest and payment forbearance continues through March of 2022...

[raBBit]

Just now, illinilaw08 said:

You weren't promised one.  Biden campaigned on it - but he needs Congress to pass it (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/27/student-loan-forgiveness-schumer-warren-pressley-urge-biden-to-extend-payment-pause.html).  Some Senate Democrats are pushing for up to $50k by executive order (same article as the last one).  The Department of Education has allegedly been working on a memo for a number of months on whether the Biden administration has authority to do that without Congressional consent  (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/white-house-promised-memo-biden-s-authority-cancel-student-debt-n1268681).  Republicans don't seem particularly interested in student loan forgiveness (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/10/us/politics/biden-student-loans.html; https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-congress-student-loan-forgiveness-110034729.html).

So, if you want student loan forgiveness (I certainly do for the last little bit I have), you either need to (a) hope the Department of Education memo concludes Biden can do it unilaterally (and Biden actually goes ahead and does it); or (b) hope a couple Republicans decide student loan forgiveness would be a good thing.

Personally, I think the can is going to be kicked down the road - interest and payment forbearance continues through March of 2022...

Interesting. Thanks for sharing the links.

Although I will say it was very clear that it was one of his campaign promises whether he understand whether he could follow through on it or not.

As for the bolded, is that just your personal guess? Or is something else pointing to that outcome?

[raBBit]

"My point is: I understand the impact of debt, and it can be debilitating," Biden said at the town hall. "I am prepared to write off the $10,000 debt but not $50 [thousand], because I don't think I have the authority to do it."

https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-wont-cancel-student-debt-heres-why-go-big-economy-2021-2

That's from after he took office. He said he had the authority to do 10k of relief. 

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

You want a government handout?

But as to your question, I think it's coming as soon as the check from Mexico for the wall clears.

Yes. We've bailed out enough corporations in my lifetime, I'd like to see individuals get a handout for once. 

[caulfield12]

People love government, but usually (only) when it benefits them.

This issue is pretty polarizing…especially for Gen Xers who have mostly all paid off their debt through hard work, scholarships, grants, summer jobs, parental assistance, etc.

Should those who went to state universities instead of Northwestern or Notre Dame be rewarded?  Or saved money with two years of junior college because they were practical?

To most on the right, this is just wrong, an unethical giveaway that punishes “risk taking” institutions that loan out money…especially in the case of public and private banks.

On the other hand, it’s popular with a lot of younger people, obviously. Living costs have increased exponentially, health care, the cost of housing and tuition…it’s seemingly impossible for most Millennials to get ahead in life after 2008-09.  So the problem is should this only be for those victimized by for profit or online schools?  Everyone will scream they knew or should have known what they were getting into, right?

This is where it’s a slippery slope.  What is fair here, exactly?  The right will scream about an ethical or moral issue, reparations, and argue “my” ancestors had nothing to do with slavery, maybe weren’t even Americans back then from 1608 to 1865.  What about Native Americans, for example?  Someone will mumble something about casinos…but I guarantee that same person has never spent a month observing life in Boone County, South Dakota, statistically the poorest in the US.  What choices did African Americans or Native Americans have…unlike student loan borrowers?  “We didn’t land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on us…” or so goes a quite famous movie line.

I would actually prefer to give future generations free community college and/or a $10,000 bond (upon birth, for all Americans) that would accrue interest at 2-2.5% interest and couldn’t be drawn down at age 18 (or past it) for anything but higher education or vocational school costs.  Because going backwards to some random/arbitrary cutoff point in the past is never going to be fair to those on the other side of that line. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

If everyone received $10,000 in forgiveness it would benefit more those that chose a less expensive route. That $10,000 might be 50% of their total bill versus 10% or less at an expensive private school. 

The surprise to me in this is the realization that somehow in my lifetime Democrats went from being the worker, tradesperson,  blue color person to the educated and Republicans are now Joe Six Pack. 

[caulfield12]

23 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Yes. We've bailed out enough corporations in my lifetime, I'd like to see individuals get a handout for once. 

They’re risk takers/entrepreneurs/job creators!

Trickle down or supply-side economics has worked so well in creating exponentially increasing societal inequality.

We will see what happens here in China when the government attempts to re-level the playing field by force in the case of many of their tech leaders/billionaire class.  The argument goes that they will in the process (stifling corporations and the Top 1-2%) destroy creativity, innovation and the individual will to work harder in order to get ahead…see John Galt/Ayn Rand for further reference.

[Texsox]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

They’re risk takers/entrepreneurs/job creators!

Trickle down or supply-side economics has worked so well in creating exponentially increasing societal inequality.

We will see what happens here in China when the government attempts to re-level the playing field by force in the case of many of their tech leaders/billionaire class.  The argument goes that they will in the process (stifling corporations and the Top 1-2%) destroy creativity, innovation and the individual will to work harder in order to get ahead…see John Galt/Ayn Rand for further reference.

We're just creating better worker bots for the capitalists to exploit. 

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

If everyone received $10,000 in forgiveness it would benefit more those that chose a less expensive route. That $10,000 might be 50% of their total bill versus 10% or less at an expensive private school. 

Then better just to cut them all $10,000 checks to continue to stimulate the economy and entrepreneurship.  Almost every study in history shows that has a more pronounced impact than debt forgiveness or tax credits.

But, inflation?  Increasingly investments like Bitcoin?  Housing prices through the roof?

Can Americans actually be trusted to use that money wisely?

Well, the argument on the right again goes it should never have been the government’s money…that individuals are better prepared to manage for their own future than Washington, D.C. (that line of thinking typically carries the day until 1987, 1997-2002, 2008-2009 or just last Covid year, when everyone cries for government to save or protect them.) 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Texsox said:

We're just creating better worker bots for the capitalists to exploit. 

That’s the plan here in China…forcing 40% into vo tech schools to create the next generation of value-added/higher level manufacturing. 
 

The billionaire class is getting too powerful and threatening the government (societal inequality/housing and child raising costs, etc.), so the answer is to destroy or at least break up and highly regulate the tech industry, which was supposed to lead your economy into the future.

It’s contradictory.  The genie is out of the bottle.  They just made another decision about after school and weekend training centers, to ban them because roughly 2/3rd’s of Chinese parents spend $1000-3000 per month for their kid/s from ages 6-18, just on supplemental or exam prep classes.  Insane, right?

Well, in the process…a black market of private tutors is popping up already, charging 2-3X…that only the richest can afford.  Our school just announced the “test training center” for IELTS, TOEFL, SAT, ACT, etc., is now the Individualized Services Center, lol.

Practical result, fewer and fewer will have 2-3 kids (until recently, could only have one due to population control) and China will end up essentially just like Japan from the late 1980’s until present day.

[Two-Gun Pete]

7 hours ago, raBBit said:

I can't get through the paywall. Does it state when the $10k in student relief will be applied to student loan balances?

Link from Twitter

Found this on another board; I've never bothered to learn how to imbed tweets over here.

Its the Twitter thread from where I saw the WSJ article. Its an interesting read. It gets more into the sources of the student debt crisis moreso whether or not there will be student debt forgiveness.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[illinilaw08]

21 hours ago, raBBit said:

Interesting. Thanks for sharing the links.

Although I will say it was very clear that it was one of his campaign promises whether he understand whether he could follow through on it or not.

As for the bolded, is that just your personal guess? Or is something else pointing to that outcome?

Personal guess based on following this over the last several months.  Here's how I get to that:

I don't think Biden's admin is going to conclude he has authority to cancel debt without Congressional intervention - and even if they do, he's running out of time before the current freeze expires.*  I don't think he will ever get any Republican buy-in on the issue, so it isn't going to pass in any regular bill (need 60 votes because of the filibuster, so you need 10 Rs to vote for it to pass).  I don't think the entire Democratic caucus is convinced cancelling any portion of debt is a good idea, so you won't see it tacked on to a reconciliation type bill (which would need all 50 D Senators to vote for it).  I think the one tangible thing they can get done is to continue the forbearance - which actually does provide tangible benefits to people struggling under the weight of their debt - either through the temporary relief from payments or by making payments which actually pay down principal.

* There are some political concerns on cancelling student loan debt; we've seen some of that in this thread.  Is this stimulus to people who don't really need it (anecdotally, I'm a person who would gladly take the cancellation of the last of my debt, but don't need it)?  Will people who did pay off their loans complain about how unfair this is (some will do so loudly)?  Does it leave out people who didn't get a degree?  Etc.