Hector wrong. Again. - Cruz back with Min

[tray]

Why does every last thing have to be figured out before Spring Training?

Last off-season, Hahn supposedly had everything figured out with Encarnacion,, Mazara, Gio-Gonzalez, Cishek..

Maybe stand pat and let the season play out a bit to find out where the leaks are before trying to plug holes.

Then you know you are spending money and allocating  resources precisely where they are needed. IMO..

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

9 minutes ago, fathom said:

I think the Twins sign Tanaka

I think it's definitely a possibility.

Hard to know what his priorities are, but with Sugano getting $10mm/yr out of the Giants -- that's a huge ceiling to break through for NPB players. Sugano was already the highest paid player at just under $6mm before, so 4/40 is a precedent-setter. Add that to the fact that there's nothing even remotely close to a salary cap or luxury tax in the NPB, and what each team spends is really up to what the corporation that owns them feels like doing from year to year, and then consider the Rakuten is huge, rich company that's grown a ton in the past five years and is also where Tanaka pitched before, and that Tanaka is an absolute legend in Sendai, having led the Eagles to their only championship the year before he left for MLB, and that the Eagles are currently a contender whose main weakness is a couple big holes in the starting rotation -- and that's a run-on sentence that suggests I think the possibility is ripe for Rakuten to step up and give Tanaka some real money to come home and lead another charge.

I think it comes down to how badly he wants to get a WS ring. Because if he's looking at 1/15 over here, he may not be able to get quite that much per year in NPB, but he might get pretty close and with a lot more in overall guaranteed money.

[caulfield12]

Just now, Eminor3rd said:

I think it's definitely a possibility.

Hard to know what his priorities are, but with Sugano getting $10mm/yr out of the Giants -- that's a huge ceiling to break through for NPB players. Sugano was already the highest paid player at just under $6mm before, so 4/40 is a precedent-setter. Add that to the fact that there's nothing even remotely close to a salary cap or luxury tax in the NPB, and what each team spends is really up to what the corporation that owns them feels like doing from year to year, and then consider the Rakuten is huge, rich company that's grown a ton in the past five years and is also where Tanaka pitched before, and that Tanaka is an absolute legend in Sendai, having led the Eagles to their only championship the year before he left for MLB, and that the Eagles are currently a contender whose main weakness is a couple big holes in the starting rotation -- and that's a run-on sentence that suggests I think the possibility is ripe for Rakuten to step up and give Tanaka some real money to come home and lead another charge.

I think it comes down to how badly he wants to get a WS ring. Because if he's looking at 1/15 over here, he may not be able to get quite that much per year in NPB, but he might get pretty close and with a lot more in overall guaranteed money.

How much extra can players make through sponsorships over there?

I think between tax differences, comfortable home culture and local sponsorships, it should be at least roughly even if you're talking $10 vs. $15 million.

What was Ichiro getting right before he left for Seattle in endorsement money at the peak of his career, for example?

 

[Eminor3rd]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

How much extra can players make through sponsorships over there?

I think between tax differences, comfortable home culture and local sponsorships, it should be at least roughly even if you're talking $10 vs. $15 million.

What was Ichiro getting right before he left for Seattle in endorsement money at the peak of his career, for example?

 

No idea really, but Tanaka has already kind of gone there, he has his own clothing brand (MXTX or something) that Rakuten helps him market.

Also he's made a dick-ton of money already (from the Yankees), a LOT more than most Japanese players ever make, so it's possible that maximizing earnings isn't the biggest thing. 

My guess is he knows he's gonna go back and get a few seasons in NPB at some point anyway, he's just trying to figure out if it's now or later. Because at his age, once he goes he isn't coming back.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Eminor3rd

[SoxSteve]

2 hours ago, HOFHurt35 said:

The whole Vaughn DH thing was ludicrous to begin with.

a) People forget he's only had 200 minor league ABs. 

b) You don't burn the development of the 20th best prospect in the game to plug at DH because you had no one else.

 

 

 

Totally disagree. Some guys are just ready and pure hitters and Vaughn is one of them. He will starting DH. Bank on it.

[iWiN4PreP]

Cruz makes absolutely NO sense. If he comes here itd be a complete waste of resources. We have a dh, we desperately need quality sp

[Chicago White Sox]

Some people are saying Nelson Cruz would be a waste, but coming into the offseason we had five major holes to fill IMO:

• SP2: Lance Lynn - quality addition regardless if you like the price
• SP4: TBD - need a bridge guy who can offer innings and/or upside 
• CL: Liam Hendriks - best possible addition for the spot
• RF: Adam Eaton - underwhelming addition but LH bat with contact / OBP
• DH: Nelson Cruz? - best possible addition for the spot

I get Vaughn could fill the DH spot for less, which would allow us to add a more impactful #4 starter, but there really aren’t any of those guys after Tanaka and who knows if he’d even take a one year deal.  Short of a Burnes trade where you’re potentially adding an elite starter, sign the game-changing bat in Cruz and go with a Richards, Wainwright, or Archer in that #4 spot.  Cruz should be significantly better than Vaughn next year and it allows Andrew a year of development, which maybe isn’t needed but can’t hurt.  We just need to survive to the trade deadline and between the mid tier guys I mentioned above, Kopech, Stiever, & Lopez we should have enough depth to weather the storm.  If a more impactful starter is needed at that time, our prospect cupboard should be fully stocked and we can make another move.  Having an elite offense & bullpen will help get us there though.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Chicago White Sox

[knightni]

It would be nice to be able to plug Vaughn in at 3b or a corner OF spot sometimes - besides just 1b.

If you sign Cruz, Vaughn will need to get ABs somewhere.

[Chicago White Sox]

Also, despite being 40, Zips projects him to be the 12th better hitter next year in all of baseball and better than everyone on the Sox.  If we want to go toe to toe with the Yankees next year, we could definitely use this type of bat.  You can simply never have too much offense, especially when you’re trying to develop young pitchers.

[Sarava]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Also, despite being 40, Zips projects him to be the 12th better hitter next year in all of baseball and better than everyone on the Sox.  If we want to go toe to toe with the Yankees next year, we could definitely use this type of bat.  You can simply never have too much offense, especially when you’re trying to develop young pitchers.

For sure. If the Sox can make this happen, while not sacrificing the SP they sign or trade for, then go for it. This is not like Edwin Encarnacion, who was already showing signs of decline before the Sox signed him.

[Dick Allen]

20 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Some people are saying Nelson Cruz would be a waste, but coming into the offseason we had five major holes to fill IMO:

• SP2: Lance Lynn - quality addition regardless if you like the price
• SP4: TBD - need a bridge guy who can offer innings and/or upside 
• CL: Liam Hendriks - best possible addition for the spot
• RF: Adam Eaton - underwhelming addition but LH bat with contact / OBP
• DH: Nelson Cruz? - best possible addition for the spot

I get Vaughn could fill the DH spot for less, which would allow us to add a more impactful #4 starter, but there really aren’t any of those guys after Tanaka and who knows if he’d even take a one year deal.  Short of a Burnes trade where you’re potentially adding an elite starter, sign the game-changing bat in Cruz and go with a Richards, Wainwright, or Archer in that #4 spot.  Cruz should be significantly better than Vaughn next year and it allows Andrew a year of development, which maybe isn’t needed but can’t hurt.  We just need to survive to the trade deadline and between the mid tier guys I mentioned above, Kopech, Stiever, & Lopez we should have enough depth to weather the storm.  If a more impactful starter is needed at that time, our prospect cupboard should be fully stocked and we can make another move.  Having an elite offense & bullpen will help get us there though.

Or you can look at it for a team preaching sustained success and multiple championships, they swapped an up and comer young pitcher for an older 1 year guy, they signed an 80 year old with a history of DUIs to be the manager, they went for a reclamation project in RF, bought a 40 year old DH ( I still don't think this is true), and did get the best closer on the market. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Dick Allen

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Sarava said:

For sure. If the Sox can make this happen, while not sacrificing the SP they sign or trade for, then go for it. This is not like Edwin Encarnacion, who was already showing signs of decline before the Sox signed him.

I think we have to accept the fact they don’t want to sign Tanaka or Odorizzi to a multi-year deal, so our SP options are more limited and shouldn’t be overly costly.  If Jerry is willing to spend another $20M (putting the payroll just over $140M) we should be able to get Cruz plus a mid tier starter. That would be a very nice offseason, even if the RF upgrade is a bit questionable.

[Capital G]

Not sure why anyone wouldn't want Cruz at DH.

Vaughn? Why would we bring him up to DH when we can keep him developing and next season, if he's doing well, he can play first with Jose moving to DH.

Age? Unlike EE he has shown zero reason to think he'll slow down. Could he? Sure.... but why assume he will? Its a 1 yr deal. 

Roids? I have yet to see him test positive. You guys? 

We need a SP? Unless Cruz stops us from financially getting (if they even want to come here) Bauer or Tanaka the rest of the field has a lot more risk than Cruz IMO.

I'll take our nasty BP + our O with addition of Cruz over adding a Richards like SP.

You can get a cheaper 5th starter that all he has to do is keep us in the game for 5 innings and watch the O and BP handle the rest. 

You can't tell me Cruz + Cahill or Walker isn't very doable. 

[poppysox]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think we have to accept the fact they don’t want to sign Tanaka or Odorizzi to a multi-year deal, so our SP options are more limited and shouldn’t be overly costly.  If Jerry is willing to spend another $20M (putting the payroll just over $140M) we should be able to get Cruz plus a mid tier starter. That would be a very nice offseason, even if the RF upgrade is a bit questionable.

The RF upgrade will look phenomenal compared to what we are accustom to IMO.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Or you can look at it for a team preaching sustained success and multiple championships, they swapped an up and comer young pitcher for an older 1 year guy, they signed an 80 year old with a history of DUIs to be the manager, they went for a reclamation project in RF, bought a 40 year old DH ( I still don't think this is true), and did get the best closer on the market. 

I won’t defend the La Russa hiring, but I disagree on the other items.  If the Sox ranked Cease, Kopech, & Crochet over Dunning, then trading a WIP starter in Dane for a durable, ready to go #2 starter in Lynn is defensible.  Adding Eaton was highly questionable, but with the addition of Cespedes and also having guys like Gonzalez, Rutherford, & Adolfo in the upper minors, the Sox may have only wanted a one-year stop-gap for RF.  As for Cruz, giving Vaughn some minor league development time is probably the right thing to do if you’re argument is sustained success.  And we just signed the best closer in baseball for the next four years who I’d argue fits the definition as much as reliever can.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

The RF upgrade will look phenomenal compared to what we are accustom to IMO.

I don’t know, the White Sox version of Eaton would be fantastic, but the constant injuries and declining defense make him another question mark IMO.

[MiddleCoastBias]

35 minutes ago, knightni said:

It would be nice to be able to plug Vaughn in at 3b or a corner OF spot sometimes - besides just 1b.

If you sign Cruz, Vaughn will need to get ABs somewhere.

And if you sign Cruz, that gives us more time to try Vaughn out at 3B/OF in the minors for a season without worrying about rushing a timeline to bring him up if the Collins/Mercedes DH experiment fails early. I buy it.

[Dick Allen]

16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I won’t defend the La Russa hiring, but I disagree on the other items.  If the Sox ranked Cease, Kopech, & Crochet over Dunning, then trading a WIP starter in Dane for a durable, ready to go #2 starter in Lynn is defensible.  Adding Eaton was highly questionable, but with the addition of Cespedes and also having guys like Gonzalez, Rutherford, & Adolfo in the upper minors, the Sox may have only wanted a one-year stop-gap for RF.  As for Cruz, giving Vaughn some minor league development time is probably the right thing to do if you’re argument is sustained success.  And we just signed the best closer in baseball for the next four years who I’d argue fits the definition as much as reliever can.

If the White Sox don't play a lot of playoff baseball in 2021, and Lynn leaves, it was a bad trade. Hector is the only guy who has this Cruz stuff so I am not buying it. They need to spend their money on pitchers.  They are short a starter or two.  Everyone is going to be on an innings watch in 2021, If they sign Cruz in lieu of a good pitcher, they are setting themselves up for disappointment. They tried that in 1997. It led to the White Flag trade. You can't overcome a lack of pitching.

[Dick Allen]

19 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t know, the White Sox version of Eaton would be fantastic, but the constant injuries and declining defense make him another question mark IMO.

I actually don't mind Eaton. If he gives you what he did in 2019 we will all be OK with it. His offense was about the same as it was with the White Sox. I know it was closer to league average, but RF has some studs. I would imagine the mean is lower than average and since the Sox weren't shopping at the top of the market, he is a decent gamble. But the fact is he is still a reclamation project and most teams in the White Sox situation would have been all over Springer, and/or Bauer and Hendriks. 1-3 for the Sox.

Cruz is also looking for a 2 year contract. 

[ron883]

1 hour ago, Capital G said:

Not sure why anyone wouldn't want Cruz at DH.

Vaughn? Why would we bring him up to DH when we can keep him developing and next season, if he's doing well, he can play first with Jose moving to DH.

Age? Unlike EE he has shown zero reason to think he'll slow down. Could he? Sure.... but why assume he will? Its a 1 yr deal. 

Roids? I have yet to see him test positive. You guys? 

We need a SP? Unless Cruz stops us from financially getting (if they even want to come here) Bauer or Tanaka the rest of the field has a lot more risk than Cruz IMO.

I'll take our nasty BP + our O with addition of Cruz over adding a Richards like SP.

You can get a cheaper 5th starter that all he has to do is keep us in the game for 5 innings and watch the O and BP handle the rest. 

You can't tell me Cruz + Cahill or Walker isn't very doable. 

He has tested positive before. If we do sign him, I sure as hell hope he is roiding still. 

 

[ron883]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

The RF upgrade will look phenomenal compared to what we are accustom to IMO.

I admire the blind optimism

[poppysox]

1 minute ago, ron883 said:

I admire the blind optimism

Not blind...I saw almost every game.

[ron883]

Just now, poppysox said:

Not blind...I saw almost every game.

Nothing about Eaton's stats last season scream "phenomenal" upgrade over what we had in RF last year. 

 

[poppysox]

5 minutes ago, ron883 said:

Nothing about Eaton's stats last season scream "phenomenal" upgrade over what we had in RF last year. 

 

Hendriks just had some interesting comments on facing Eaton on NBC Sports a few days ago.  Called him a "little gnat" that just drives you nuts with his pesty hitting.  Was very up about Eaton and Madrigal as a matter of fact.  I love players that can do more than hit a bomb every 5 days.

[DoUEvenShift]

4 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Hendriks just had some interesting comments on facing Eaton on NBC Sports a few days ago.  Called him a "little gnat" that just drives you nuts with his pesty hitting.  Was very up about Eaton and Madrigal as a matter of fact.  I love players that can do more than hit a bomb every 5 days.

60 games*