Hector wrong. Again. - Cruz back with Min

[fathom]

7 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

If Semien signs with them to play 3B, that moves Donaldson to DH and there is no spot for Cruz. Unless they want Semien to play SS, but I don’t know what would happen to Polanco then.

Semien would play SS and Polanco becomes super sub with plenty of playing time when Donaldson hurts his calf.

[Jose Abreu]

8 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

If Semien signs with them to play 3B, that moves Donaldson to DH and there is no spot for Cruz. Unless they want Semien to play SS, but I don’t know what would happen to Polanco then.

The Twins chatter that I read all indicates that Polanco is likely to have a reduced role or be traded

[bmags]

Ah man, Polanco was good for 2-3 boneheaded plays per series.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Ah man, Polanco was good for 2-3 boneheaded plays per series.

Every grounder looked like an error waiting to happen

[RagahRagah]

1 hour ago, SoxBlanco said:

Barely made it into the postseason?  What???  We could have lost 7 more games than we did, and we still would have made the postseason.

I guess the correct way of saying it would be we dropped from 1st seed down to like 7 IIRC.

Edited January 26, 2021 by RagahRagah

[SoxBlanco]

Just now, RagahRagah said:

I guess the correct way of saying it would be we dropped from 1st seed down to like 7 IIRC.

But that was only because of the expanded playoffs. We knew we were in no matter what, and the seeding didn't matter very much, so winning the division was not that important. I fully believe that if the division winners got a bye last year, we would have won the division. We wouldn't have cruised to the finish line if we still had something to gain. We wouldn't have rested Anderson a day after clinching a playoff spot if the division still mattered. And Ricky wouldn't have made some of the bullpen decisions he made if the division still mattered (he was prioritizing resting the pen and seeing what certain guys could give him over trying to win the division, and I don't necessarily blame him).

[CentralChamps21]

3 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

I guess the correct way of saying it would be we dropped from 1st seed down to like 7 IIRC.

The latest date the Sox were in the #1 seed slot was 9/17. In the last 11 days, the Sox did indeed drop from #1 to #7, but don't forget that the #5 and #6 seeds went to 2nd place teams who still had worse records than the Sox despite the struggles of the last 11 days, and the Sox ended up only one win short of being #2 instead of #7. The Sox also skipped starts by Giolito and Keuchel because they determined that having them ready to pitch the first two playoff games was more important than playoff seeding.

[Bob Sacamano]

15 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

I guess the correct way of saying it would be we dropped from 1st seed down to like 7 IIRC.

If it was still division winners and 2 wild card teams, the wild card game would have been between the Sox and Indians. Sox had a better record than the Yankees and Astros.

Edited January 26, 2021 by manbearpuig

[southsider2k5]

9 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

I guess the correct way of saying it would be we dropped from 1st seed down to like 7 IIRC.

Of course the distance between 2nd and 7th was a grand total of...

1 game.

But it isn't quite as dramatic like that.  It also misses that they had tied for the 4th best record in the AL, and 7th best in all MLB.  or that 2 of the 4 teams in the AL which had those great records have taken major steps back this winter.

But sell that narrative.

[RagahRagah]

42 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Of course the distance between 2nd and 7th was a grand total of...

1 game.

But it isn't quite as dramatic like that.  It also misses that they had tied for the 4th best record in the AL, and 7th best in all MLB.  or that 2 of the 4 teams in the AL which had those great records have taken major steps back this winter.

But sell that narrative.

 I like how you keep insinuating that because they did well that means that none of the concerns for this year are valid. Again, it's lazy.

 It certainly wouldn't be the 1st time the sox were projected to do well and fell hard in a division they were supposedly much better than the rest of. 

 Legitimate concerns are not narratives.

Edited January 26, 2021 by RagahRagah

[RagahRagah]

50 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

The latest date the Sox were in the #1 seed slot was 9/17. In the last 11 days, the Sox did indeed drop from #1 to #7, but don't forget that the #5 and #6 seeds went to 2nd place teams who still had worse records than the Sox despite the struggles of the last 11 days, and the Sox ended up only one win short of being #2 instead of #7. The Sox also skipped starts by Giolito and Keuchel because they determined that having them ready to pitch the first two playoff games was more important than playoff seeding.

 You are correct. But you don't think that the amount of games the sox lost in those last 2 weeks speaks volumes? Granted, Ricky was one of the main problems at the very end but the sox still lost a lot of games.

People forget how close the Sox were to missing the playoffs in 2005 with the massive choke job they pulled, Indians or no Indians.

Edited January 26, 2021 by RagahRagah

[CentralChamps21]

1 minute ago, RagahRagah said:

 Your correct. But you don't think that the amount of games the sox lost in those last 2 weeks speaks volumes? Granted, Ricky was one of the main problems at the very end but the sox still lost a lot of games.

The last 14 games were all against playoff teams, with a bullpen that was thin due to injuries and the two best starters missing starts to set up the rotation for the playoffs, and yes, a manager that was not great. I don't think any of those things are cause for concern going forward. Also, IIRC, only one of the last 14 games was against a lefty starter.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

 I like how you keep insinuating that because they did well that means that none of the concerns for this year are valid. Again, it's lazy.

 It certainly wouldn't be the 1st time the sox were projected to do well and fell hard in a division they were supposedly much better than the rest of. 

 Legitimate concerns are not narratives.

No lazy is selling just the most negative piece of the narrative over and over again.  Remember a few posts ago when you defended your extreme pessimism by saying...  " I don't need to "justify" a fucking fact. "? 

All of what I stated are facts.  You just don't like them, so now you are trying to disqualify them with some irrelevant handwaving designed to make things look as bad as possible, even though your "facts" are seemingly unable to be challenged in your mind.  Funny how that changes with the facts don't fit your bias and narrative.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

 You are correct. But you don't think that the amount of games the sox lost in those last 2 weeks speaks volumes? Granted, Ricky was one of the main problems at the very end but the sox still lost a lot of games.

People forget how close the Sox were to missing the playoffs in 2005 with the massive choke job they pulled, Indians or no Indians.

I think the Sox were at a true low in the last 2 weeks of the season. Their pitching staff was really hurting. Robert was in a bad slump. Their manager was giving away games unnecessarily. They wouldn't pull guys out of the lineup who should have been.

Had the season continued, I think there's some important things likely to happen. Abreu and possibly Anderson were likely to cool off. Robert was likely to break out of his slump, we saw some hints of that right at the end with that monster HR in the playoffs. Giolito would probably keep doing what he did. Keuchel might have cooled off a little. 

The real trick was going to be those back 3 starters. Cease was really struggling. Lopez was a disaster. Dunning was ok but the org showed very little confidence in him. Rodon was better off on waivers.

If those back 3 starters remained that bad, then their record was going to get worse from that point. Covering for them was straining the bullpen, and that would have started hurting their numbers. But, all 3 of them have some ability to be better. Had they just "leveled off" and put up tolerable but not awful starts, then the White Sox could readily have surged forward again.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

I think the Sox were at a true low in the last 2 weeks of the season. Their pitching staff was really hurting. Robert was in a bad slump. Their manager was giving away games unnecessarily. They wouldn't pull guys out of the lineup who should have been.

Had the season continued, I think there's some important things likely to happen. Abreu and possibly Anderson were likely to cool off. Robert was likely to break out of his slump, we saw some hints of that right at the end with that monster HR in the playoffs. Giolito would probably keep doing what he did. Keuchel might have cooled off a little. 

The real trick was going to be those back 3 starters. Cease was really struggling. Lopez was a disaster. Dunning was ok but the org showed very little confidence in him. Rodon was better off on waivers.

If those back 3 starters remained that bad, then their record was going to get worse from that point. Covering for them was straining the bullpen, and that would have started hurting their numbers. But, all 3 of them have some ability to be better. Had they just "leveled off" and put up tolerable but not awful starts, then the White Sox could readily have surged forward again.

If we are going to cite 2020 as an indicator for 21, there are a few things worth mentioning.

#1 Lance Lynn is here.  He doesn't have to be a super star, but even as a step back from his 2020, is a very large improvement over what was in this slot last year.

#2 Michael Kopech will be here at some point.

#3 Dylan Cease has another year of experience and a new pitching coach to try to unlock him

#4 Even if you don't believe in Lopez, him having another new voice and not trying to quickly come back off of injury will put him in a better spot for 21.  Maybe that is as a reliever or a starter, who knows, maybe he really is a bust, and we never see him again.

#5 Stiever also exists in the wings and will be given a chance to bounce back to where he was.  If he doesn't exist, the odds are he was dealt for another starter, who then filll up another known spot in the rotation.

#6 We all know the Sox are still looking to fill the rotation up with at least one more starter.  While it won't be a top notch guy, with the offense they have, they don't need it as much as other teams.  They can win games 7-5 and 9-6 this year.  What they need is mediocre innings eating if they don't steps forwards from Kopech, Cease, Stiever and whoever else is here.  Sure you'd love to have Bauer there, but they can hide some things with their offense

#7 Would also have an expectation of a step forward as a whole with the pen.  Colome is gone, but Hendriks is here.  Bummer is healthy.  Crochet is healthy.  Guys like Lambert, Burdi and Tyler Johnson lurk in the distance, and maybe we see a failed starter drop down.

#8  We also have another year of growth in the minors for a guy to potentially surprise.  Maybe a guy like Flores really does pop up as a useful option.  Maybe someone no one is talking about like a Kade McClure's pop up stuff is real and he had a Brandon McCarthy style flight through MiLB.

Looking back at '20, because this was a 60 game season, the Sox approached the last two weeks very differently than if they still had about 100 games to go.  I don't think they shorten up their rotation and panic the way that they did with 10 games to go.  They would have been a lot more apt to let their starters pitch through some things and try to learn on the job.  Dunning/Cease/ReyLo all fit here.  Maybe even a Stiever gets another shot or run.  Who knows what the record would have looked like, but I think overall they would have known some more about some of their guys if they had pitched a full season, or even a longer season.  They would have also been able to give Rodon time to figure out if he could start again, or how to be a reliever.  While I don't think all questions would have been answered in the affirmative, I do think enough would have gone right that they would have been more ready for the playoffs than they were with them starting at the apex of their worst slump of the season.

[ThirdGen]

38 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

 You are correct. But you don't think that the amount of games the sox lost in those last 2 weeks speaks volumes? Granted, Ricky was one of the main problems at the very end but the sox still lost a lot of games.

People forget how close the Sox were to missing the playoffs in 2005 with the massive choke job they pulled, Indians or no Indians.

Massive choke job in 2005?  WTF?  They played Sept and the first days of October at a .610 clip, which is a 100 win pace.

The Indians were playing like .750 ball the last couple of months.  Holding them off was amazing.  Only Jay Marrioti would call that a choke job.

[RagahRagah]

24 minutes ago, ThirdGen said:

Massive choke job in 2005?  WTF?  They played Sept and the first days of October at a .610 clip, which is a 100 win pace.

The Indians were playing like .750 ball the last couple of months.  Holding them off was amazing.  Only Jay Marrioti would call that a choke job.

A lot more people than just Marriotti called it a choke job.

[RagahRagah]

59 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think the Sox were at a true low in the last 2 weeks of the season. Their pitching staff was really hurting. Robert was in a bad slump. Their manager was giving away games unnecessarily. They wouldn't pull guys out of the lineup who should have been.

Had the season continued, I think there's some important things likely to happen. Abreu and possibly Anderson were likely to cool off. Robert was likely to break out of his slump, we saw some hints of that right at the end with that monster HR in the playoffs. Giolito would probably keep doing what he did. Keuchel might have cooled off a little. 

The real trick was going to be those back 3 starters. Cease was really struggling. Lopez was a disaster. Dunning was ok but the org showed very little confidence in him. Rodon was better off on waivers.

If those back 3 starters remained that bad, then their record was going to get worse from that point. Covering for them was straining the bullpen, and that would have started hurting their numbers. But, all 3 of them have some ability to be better. Had they just "leveled off" and put up tolerable but not awful starts, then the White Sox could readily have surged forward again.

You make some good points there. However, I don't think most of us thought Robert would have an impact straight out of the gate like he did.

I guess we will never really know, and I do believe we will win the division, but acting like the things I listed are not legitimate points of skepticism and/or concern is denial.

[RagahRagah]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

No lazy is selling just the most negative piece of the narrative over and over again.  Remember a few posts ago when you defended your extreme pessimism by saying...  " I don't need to "justify" a fucking fact. "? 

All of what I stated are facts.  You just don't like them, so now you are trying to disqualify them with some irrelevant handwaving designed to make things look as bad as possible, even though your "facts" are seemingly unable to be challenged in your mind.  Funny how that changes with the facts don't fit your bias and narrative.

 Facts aren't narratives. I shared some of those, as well as some legitimate concerns.

You failing to acknowledge or address them makes your argument lazy, not mine merely "negative." And of course it is going to be said over and over again if you can't bother to actually absorb it and discuss it.

Essentially, you're just complaining about what I'm posting rather than tackling it.  You just call what I say negative so you can dismiss it. Negative is not necessarily bad. Negative things have to be discussed, ya know. They tend to be the things that have to be discussed most. That's life.

Edited January 26, 2021 by RagahRagah

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

 Facts aren't narratives. I shared some of those, as well as some legitimate concerns.

You failing to acknowledge or address them makes your argument lazy, not mine merely "negative." And of course it is going to be said over and over again if you can't bother to actually absorb it and discuss it.

Essentially, you're just complaining about what I'm posting rather than tackling it.  You just call what I say negative so you can dismiss it. Negative is not necessarily bad. Negative things have to be discussed, ya know. They tend to be the things that have to be discussed most. That's life.

So what you are saying is that you couldn't refute any of my facts and couldn't actually absorb it or discuss it, and are now just complaining about it rather than tackling it. That's what I expected.

[GermanSoxFan]

20 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

A lot more people than just Marriotti called it a choke job.

And these people are morons. 

[35thstreetswarm]

2 hours ago, SoxBlanco said:

But that was only because of the expanded playoffs. We knew we were in no matter what, and the seeding didn't matter very much, so winning the division was not that important. I fully believe that if the division winners got a bye last year, we would have won the division. We wouldn't have cruised to the finish line if we still had something to gain. We wouldn't have rested Anderson a day after clinching a playoff spot if the division still mattered. And Ricky wouldn't have made some of the bullpen decisions he made if the division still mattered (he was prioritizing resting the pen and seeing what certain guys could give him over trying to win the division, and I don't necessarily blame him).

The willful amnesia about this obvious fact is astonishing.  Ricky essentially said he was "experimenting" with crazy bullpen decisions once we clinched.  Resting players.  Putting bad/recently-injured relievers in highest-leverage situations to "test" them.  We were obviously the best team in the division in 2020 and didn't care about our seeding once we clinched and went 3 games up on the Twins.

[SonofaRoache]

8 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

The willful amnesia about this obvious fact is astonishing.  Ricky essentially said he was "experimenting" with crazy bullpen decisions once we clinched.  Resting players.  Putting bad/recently-injured relievers in highest-leverage situations to "test" them.  We were obviously the best team in the division in 2020 and didn't care about our seeding once we clinched and went 3 games up on the Twins.

If what you said were mostly true, our FO wouldn't have been pissed at Ricky. They were upset we didn't finish off the division race. 

[35thstreetswarm]

Just now, SonofaRoache said:

If what you said were mostly true, our FO wouldn't have been pissed at Ricky. They were upset we didn't finish off the division race. 

Huh?  That's 100% consistent with what I said.  Ricky didn't play to win at the end (i.e. "didn't finish off the division race.").  The FO wasn't on board with that approach at all.  (Neither was I).  

[South Side Hit Men]

I disagree with either 2005 or 2020 September slumps being a "choke job".

Some fans were fretting on WSI, in 2005 but it wasn't a majority. I didn't think Mariotti was still around in 2005. 2005 was only the third year I felt the Sox had a great shot at winning the World Series (1977 and 1983, when I was young, were the others). I never thought they would lose the Division, and didn't fear any of their playoff opponents (thought Boston would be the most challenging based on their experience coming back against the Yankees and winning the WS.

I had disagreements with some of Ricky's calls late last season, but ultimately would blame the late season slide and one and done playoff on lack of starting pitching. Ricky/Rick came up with the Game 3 bullpen game because they literally had no better options for the elimination game. Stone, Ozzie and Frank, among others, blamed it all on Renteria, but it was beyond overboard or accurate, IMO. if Keuchel pitched even halfway decent in Game 2, they advance and have time to prepare Cease and Dunning for at least a 3-4 inning start in the ALDS.

I'm still new here, so not sure if game threads in September are representative of how they typically go in a close game, but the threads were painful, win or lose. I hope they turn out better in 2021.

Edited January 26, 2021 by South Side Hit Men