Hector wrong. Again. - Cruz back with Min

[RagahRagah]

1 minute ago, Rounding_Third said:

And we better pray that Yaz stays healthy or turn over catching duties to the Collins experiment. 

The lack of depth is... yet another of many concerns this year.

[Rounding_Third]

Still no solution for the sub 500 record against RHP.

[Balta1701]

Just now, EloyJenkins said:

What options on the market pitched more than 142 inning s in 2019? Not many tbh

I mean, Jose Quintana. That's literally why I just assumed they were going to sign him, the match to our needs was completely obvious.

[Chisoxfn]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Then they should have been smarter about their additions, because they wound up taking a quite large risk by leaving a gaping hole.

There were 3 clear needs coming into this offseason. Pitching depth, bullpen depth, and RF. 

While they added a mid to front of the rotation pitcher, they also subtracted from their depth in the process, leaving "pitching depth" as an ongoing, major issue. They then signed the top closer on the market - a great move in principle, one I supported...but between the two moves, they spent $23 million or so. If they have a hard financial limit, those moves were done at the cost of failing to fill one of their biggest needs with an adequate player. The upgrade from Dunning to Lynn isn't necessarily a great one if it puts Lopez in the rotation and he is as bad as last year.

Hopefully we're concerned for nothing, but it seems like they can't trade Madrigal now as there's no backup plan if they move him. So do they have enough left to fill innings in the rotation? 

I'll correct you slightly - I think there were 2 needs - filling the closer spot (since Colome was a free agent) and rotational depth.  RF was never a key need and much more of a nice to have. No team is going to have 9 studs in the lineup - so any resource spent on RF was a premium need in my mind vs. going dumpster diving, which is what they did in Eaton. And to be honest - if Mazara is coming in as well, with a full spring, I wouldn't be shocked at a bounce back campaign from Nomar either.  But I'll live with the two of them and if it truly becomes a need - go acquire someone at the deadline.

Rotational depth is critical though - and they certainly bolstered the top of the rotation and the depth by acquiring Lynn - they still have a ton of uncertainty in the backend of the rotation. Still - I'd be surprised if they don't add someone on a 1 year deal. I'm just really shocked it wasn't Q, but at this point I'll assume Wainright and to be honest - while I might have prefered one of Q/Richards/Wainright - the reality is which of the three will be better is probably a total crapshoot next year anyway.  Although I tend to think Q has the highest floor of the group - when it comes to liklihood of being durable.

[Chisoxfn]

19 minutes ago, fathom said:

Just feels they’ve put way way too much faith in Katz and all their main offensive guys staying healthy.  They’ve done nothing to insulate themselves for 162 game season.

The lineup has quite a bit of depth and you have Vaughn, Crochet, and Kopech waiting in the wings.  I'd say there are teams with a lot less depth than the Sox - but I'd also say odds of the Sox having Dodger depth is just crazy talk given the payroll constraints they would always be under. 

[Chisoxfn]

9 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I don’t think they’re trading anyone nor should they. If Jerry isn’t gonna spend $$, the front office needs to depend on Madrigal, Vaughn, Kopech etc to create a 5-6 year window instead of a 3 year one by trading pieces away 

This.  

[Chisoxfn]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I mean, Jose Quintana. That's literally why I just assumed they were going to sign him, the match to our needs was completely obvious.

I agree with you here - I was shocked they didn't go that route.  Seemed like the perfect depth move for the team. I'd much rather have spent money on Q and completely ignored RF.  

[Rounding_Third]

Every baseball analyst and Sox FO stated their main 2021 needs were closer, SP, LH bat.  So they get their closer, fantastic job, just go 50% on SP, ok, and they're suddenly done?  And still haven't come close to their intended payroll?   Wow!  Oh and they need IF depth and BUC though they they'll have us believe they don't.  

[Jerksticks]

1 minute ago, Chisoxfn said:

I agree with you here - I was shocked they didn't go that route.  Seemed like the perfect depth move for the team. I'd much rather have spent money on Q and completely ignored RF.  

Maybe Q was pissed about the trade to the cubs and didn’t want to come back.  

[Chicago White Sox]

23 minutes ago, fathom said:

Just feels they’ve put way way too much faith in Katz and all their main offensive guys staying healthy.  They’ve done nothing to insulate themselves for 162 game season.

Totally agree.  And while I truly believe Cooper was a problem and there should be some hanging fruit, Katz isn’t going to be able to fix everyone and especially not in one offseason.  As much as I’d love another star, I’d be content with more depth as long as we’re talking about decent players and not guys who will be DFAed come June.

[fathom]

6 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

The lineup has quite a bit of depth and you have Vaughn, Crochet, and Kopech waiting in the wings.  I'd say there are teams with a lot less depth than the Sox - but I'd also say odds of the Sox having Dodger depth is just crazy talk given the payroll constraints they would always be under. 

The depth would be for Vaughn in this case. I’m not excited about Leury and Eaton as corner outfielders to start the year if Vaughn stays down.

[smellysox]

1 hour ago, flavum said:

Ask Stone if Katz is going to fix Spencer Adams just to see how he reacts.

Stone will say, "no not at all. Can I be any more clear?"

[Chicago White Sox]

21 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Or Cease turning the corner and finding success as a TOR stud based on his elite stuff 

I’m one of Cease’s biggest fans, but a team with serious contention hopes would enter the season with Dylan as the #5 given all his uncertainty.  Instead right now he’s our #4 and Lopez is our #5 and that’s not a risk worth taking even if you think Kopech will be ready early on.

[Rey21]

13 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I don’t think they’re trading anyone nor should they. If Jerry isn’t gonna spend $$, the front office needs to depend on Madrigal, Vaughn, Kopech etc to create a 5-6 year window instead of a 3 year one by trading pieces away 

They’re walking such a fine line if they don’t trade them then cuz in order to capitalize on Abreu’s, Lynn’s, Kuechel’s, Grandal’s best years and whatever else Eaton has left this year - they need Madrigal, Vaughn, Kopech, and Crochett to be the perfect remaining puzzle pieces, that’s a lot to ask of unproven players. Fair to say that everything has to go right for every team to win a World Series but I just don’t feel like they have their Betts/Sale/Verlander/Soto/Rendon/Bellinger to put them over the top yet. 

[fathom]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m one of Cease’s biggest fans, but a team with serious contention hopes would enter the season with Dylan as the #5 given all his uncertainty.  Instead right now he’s our #4 and Lopez is our #5 and that’s not a risk worth taking even if you think Kopech will be ready early on.

When you put it that way....gross

[Rounding_Third]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Totally agree.  And while I truly believe Cooper was a problem and there should be some hanging fruit, Katz isn’t going to be able to fix everyone and especially not in one offseason.  As much as I’d love another star, I’d be content with more depth as long as we’re talking about decent players and not guys who will be DFAed come June.

100% agree!  Still a few out there but being picked off every day and they just do nothing.

[Chisoxfn]

7 minutes ago, fathom said:

The depth would be for Vaughn in this case. I’m not excited about Leury and Eaton as corner outfielders to start the year if Vaughn stays down.

Once Vaughn is up - you have Leury and Eaton, one of which gets more AB's and the other can fill in for others in a pinch. I like Leury, other than fact he gets hurt. Add in Mazara and others and I'm not too worried.

Moncada / Abreu's reversion to mean/respected regression should normalize and I suspect arrow only shooting up for Jimenez and Robert.  Grandall, Anderson are solid bats to be around where they were (I recognize Timmy has been amazing so maybe some downside...but if he was a little worse than last year - that is still pretty awesome).  Just in this mini paragraph that is 6 good to above average bats.  

Round it out with Vaughn, Eaton, Madrigal, Collins, and Leury and that is nothing to sneeze at.  If Madrigal is just solid and Vaughn is anywhere close to as good as people say - that is an absurdly strong lineup.  In the past I had to hope like 7 guys would have career years for the Sox to contend - now I'm just asking people to be somewhere in the barometer (up or down) of what they can be and/or have been - as long as they do that - this is going to be a good to great offense.  

[Chicago White Sox]

7 minutes ago, fathom said:

The depth would be for Vaughn in this case. I’m not excited about Leury and Eaton as corner outfielders to start the year if Vaughn stays down.

Which is why I’m not against a Nomar addition.  We could use a left-handed corner OF bat with power to fill in when Eloy or Eaton are injured.  Personally, I’d rather have a player like that and get rid one of our other reserves.  IMO, Leury & Engel are somewhat redundant unless you plan on using Leury a lot more in the IF.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

100% agree!  Still a few out there but being picked off every day and they just do nothing.

I don’t know if they’re done or waiting on bargains or working trades, but it’s scary watching the market quickly thin out.

[Balta1701]

22 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

I'll correct you slightly - I think there were 2 needs - filling the closer spot (since Colome was a free agent) and rotational depth.  RF was never a key need and much more of a nice to have. No team is going to have 9 studs in the lineup - so any resource spent on RF was a premium need in my mind vs. going dumpster diving, which is what they did in Eaton. And to be honest - if Mazara is coming in as well, with a full spring, I wouldn't be shocked at a bounce back campaign from Nomar either.  But I'll live with the two of them and if it truly becomes a need - go acquire someone at the deadline.

Rotational depth is critical though - and they certainly bolstered the top of the rotation and the depth by acquiring Lynn - they still have a ton of uncertainty in the backend of the rotation. Still - I'd be surprised if they don't add someone on a 1 year deal. I'm just really shocked it wasn't Q, but at this point I'll assume Wainright and to be honest - while I might have prefered one of Q/Richards/Wainright - the reality is which of the three will be better is probably a total crapshoot next year anyway.  Although I tend to think Q has the highest floor of the group - when it comes to liklihood of being durable.

I’m ok with not going into panic mode yet, but I think a meltdown becomes fairly reasonable if they don’t sign Wainright. Who else is left? 

We played this game with Mat Latos and Hector Noesi before.

[Rounding_Third]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t know if they’re done or waiting on bargains or working trades, but it’s scary watching the market quickly thin out.

Particularly at BUC.  Not everyone agrees about that need, I'm a yes, definitely.  3 of the best are now gone; Ramos, Romine, and Suzuki, each for >=$2m.  Sox were spoiled with McCann and now I believe undervalued his contribution.  We're going from a great defensive BUC with an .896 OPS to .292 with Collins and his crappy defense and they're fine with that.  Like I said before, Yaz, please, please, PLEASE stay healthy.  Btw, that's Sox FO strategy too.      

Edited January 27, 2021 by Rounding_Third

[Y2Jimmy0]

19 minutes ago, Rey21 said:

They’re walking such a fine line if they don’t trade them then cuz in order to capitalize on Abreu’s, Lynn’s, Kuechel’s, Grandal’s best years and whatever else Eaton has left this year - they need Madrigal, Vaughn, Kopech, and Crochett to be the perfect remaining puzzle pieces, that’s a lot to ask of unproven players. Fair to say that everything has to go right for every team to win a World Series but I just don’t feel like they have their Betts/Sale/Verlander/Soto/Rendon/Bellinger to put them over the top yet. 

Disagree there. They might have multiple guys like that. 

[Chisoxfn]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I’m ok with not going into panic mode yet, but I think a meltdown becomes fairly reasonable if they don’t sign Wainright. Who else is left? 

We played this game with Mat Latos and Hector Noesi before.

The one big difference is - those teams didn't have well above average lineups and Michael Kopech / Crochet types waiting in the wings. But your point still remains solid. I mean - they aren't any thinner in the rotation this year than they were a year ago when they were one of the better teams in baseball...in fact they are deeper.  So do they need a Wainright...one could argue no....that isn't to say I'm not in your camp where I'd much much prefer to have one.  

By the way - well played on the obscure Latos reference. Forgot all about his tenure with the Sox.  

[Rey21]

4 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Disagree there. They might have multiple guys like that. 

That’s my point though do they have time with Abreu’s age, Lynn on a 1 year deal, Grandal and Kuechel only getting older, Moncada’s uncertainty to wait and find out if they don’t have the guys like that? 
Just wish that if they weren’t gonna offer up their big 3 prospects then they would have at least spent money on a Bauer/Ozuna/Springer to assure that you have a dude to help put you over the top. 

[South Side Hit Men]

17 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

My assumption still is they look to extend Gio and Lynn. In which case - I get more on board with the off-season. Reality is the biggest acquisition of the off-season was Lynn. Hendricks was nice and the bigger price - but overall production wise (relative to 2020) he was pretty close to a wash vs. Colome (not saying Colome is better - just that last year there was a neglible difference between the 2 relative to White Sox W/L, etc).  

But Lance Lynn - the playoffs look a lot different if you got Lynn's production out of one of the spots in the rotation.  Personally - I'm happy. My bigger worry is if they went all-in and dealt a ton of the future away. I like the squad currently constructed and appreciate that the team maintained flexibility and maintained projectable high upside assets who can help extend this teams window.  

But I'm more of a - build a team for an extended window of sustained winning vs. focus on a 2-3 year period where you go entirely all-in kind of guy.  

I agree with Giolito, but disagree they should extend Lynn. The four players (Lynn, Grandal, Keuchel and Hendricks) on the wrong side of 30 at $65M-$70M. I wouldn't have signed Grandal last year, not because he is bad but because offense from your catcher is a luxury for a mid level payroll, same as a top closer which you state above.

Coming into the off season, assuming this is their payroll, I would have targeted Bradley Jr, Rosario and a defense first BU catcher. For pitching, would have signed a decent SP to eat up innings (and kept Dunning), and promoted from within for the closer role, adding 1-2 FA relievers. Crochet should be stretched to be a full time starter over the next two season. You can add a July pickup if the younger guys aren't stepping up after another year of development and time with Katz. Between Cease, Kopech, Lopez and at the time Dunning, you should have a decent #3 and #4 by the time the playoffs started, could also pick up someone in July if they are not (or significant injuries occur).