Musgrove to Padres

[Chicago White Sox]

13 minutes ago, maloney.adam said:

I agree with James on this. The Sox need to change their strategy on the type of players they draft. They draft too many college players that are older.

The Sox have gotten progressively better since the 2018 draft, but until they take a prep in the 1st they are still well behind the curve.  LatAm is another story and while I love the Cespedes & Vera additions, we can’t keep ignoring the top of the 16 year old market like we do and expect to be competitive.  Unfortunately Jerry doesn’t understand signing young LatAm prospects has the highest ROI in baseball.

[chetkincaid]

Again...

 

[SonofaRoache]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The Sox have gotten progressively better since the 2018 draft, but until they take a prep in the 1st they are still well behind the curve.  LatAm is another story and while I love the Cespedes & Vera additions, we can’t keep ignoring the top of the 16 year old market like we do and expect to be competitive.  Unfortunately Jerry doesn’t understand signing young LatAm prospects has the highest ROI in baseball.

I mean this true but I am sure everyone is upset that we have a pipeline to Latin players. We also have gotten great value for guys we signed to good deals. IF we start spending more money we will be fine. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

They also have a GM who can evaluate players.  

Cant our supposed President of Baseball Ops do that? 

[ptatc]

13 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

I mean this true but I am sure everyone is upset that we have a pipeline to Latin players. We also have gotten great value for guys we signed to good deals. IF we start spending more money we will be fine. 

They cant spend more money. There is a pool of international signing money. They just need to change their spending strategy.  Although there is a certain teenage player they did spend money on who is on an HOF trajectory. 

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

I mean this true but I am sure everyone is upset that we have a pipeline to Latin players. We also have gotten great value for guys we signed to good deals. IF we start spending more money we will be fine. 

Let's put it this way, what MLB team has a higher return on investment in terms of Latin America?

Between Alexei Ramirez, Jose Abreu, Tatis, Jr., and Luis Robert alone, does anyone even come close?

 

The real problem for the White Sox has been the lack of high quality depth on the pitching side, the lack of outfield development from those 4-5 oft-discussed prospects (including Basabe there,) and then favoring "MLB-ready" college talent as an organizational focus, for example, guys like Collins/Sheets/Walker, etc.

Otoh, the Padres have been pretty smart about reading the current market and realizing they can still get away with these "quantity over quality" deals and preserve their Top 6-7 prospects.   If you look at all that investment in LatAm about 5-6 years ago, they've only lost Luis Patino and still have Morejon, M.Baez and even Anderson Espinoza, who was once their most ballyhooed pitching prospect before injuries sidelined him.   Not to mention retaining Gore (who was never going anywhere) and Weathers, which is pretty remarkable starting pitching depth.

Additionally, they've been able to move Eric Lauer, Kyle Davies and now Lucchesi, and actually get above-average returns for those pieces.

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Cant our supposed President of Baseball Ops do that? 

Paddy and KW are as good as anyone at identifying talent.

It's just matching up that evaluation with the A-OK from Reinsdorf on the spending side.    To Reinsdorf's credit, he was smart enough to take the risk and pull the trigger on Robert, knowing the rebuild was at least one future star short at the time.

[caulfield12]

20 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

I mean this true but I am sure everyone is upset that we have a pipeline to Latin players. We also have gotten great value for guys we signed to good deals. IF we start spending more money we will be fine. 

I can understand the Dominican issues with Wilder and Santana, but the ONE huge miss has always been Venezuela.

We never took advantage of Ozzie Guillen as the manager for a decade, Magglio Ordonez, the Sox history with Aparicio, etc.  The ONLY obvious benefit was getting Freddy Garcia and that extension signed because of the family relationship.

 

Of course, now, with all the political issues and the majority of MLB clubs pulling up stakes in Venezuela, it hasn't hurt quite as much...as scouting that pool of talent has become less of an issue of "boots on the ground."

[scs787]

Only 16 of the top 60 free agents have signed. There are still 8 starting pitchers available. I'm not gonna get upset because the Sox didn't give up assets to get Joe Musgrove. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by scs787

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Ad if this is a lesson that needs to be learned since the Sox don't seem to do it very often is  SS's and CF's prospects get the most attention because they can be switched to other positions.

 

1 hour ago, maloney.adam said:

I agree with James on this. The Sox need to change their strategy on the type of players they draft. They draft too many college players that are older.

James copied me !! ?But he was much more thorough .

[Eminor3rd]

Whatever the White Sox would have had to give up to beat the SD package would have been a mistake. Plenty of other options still available for just money, and not all that much of it.

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, ron883 said:

Really? Didn't Gibson have TWO bum knees? He was also facing Eckersley. 

Podsednik hadn't hit a HR all year. 

Gibson had power if he got into one. Pods rarely showed power his entire career. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Podsednik hadn't hit a HR all year. 

Gibson had power if he got into one. Pods rarely showed power his entire career. 

That Gibson homer totally changed the complexion of the series from Game 1 on, was against the best relief pitcher in the modern-game (at the time) and was done on one leg...while the Pods and Blum homers were equally improbable in many ways, Gibson's was something almost out of the The Natural in terms of dramatics.

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

That Gibson homer totally changed the complexion of the series from Game 1 on, was against the best relief pitcher in the modern-game (at the time) and was done on one leg...while the Pods and Blum homers were equally improbable in many ways, Gibson's was something almost out of the The Natural in terms of dramatics.

I get that.......I'm not arguing that Kirk Gibson's HR wasn't something that could be out of a movie script(it was) I just think that Podsednik's walkoff was an incredibly underrated moment in baseball history. 

If it was the other team in town they'd play it like Gibson or Fisk(on a team that lost btw) 

Not to mention that while the Sox swept Houston, every game was close and could have easily gone the other way. 

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I get that.......I'm not arguing that Kirk Gibson's HR wasn't something that could be out of a movie script(it was) I just think that Podsednik's walkoff was an incredibly underrated moment in baseball history. 

If it was the other team in town they'd play it like Gibson or Fisk(on a team that lost btw) 

Not to mention that while the Sox swept Houston, every game was close and could have easily gone the other way. 

That's like expecting that some of the plays Juan Uribe made that year (especially the play going into the stands) to ever compete with Derek Jeter's dashing flip to home to catch Jeremy Giambi not sliding...

[thxfrthmmrs]

Back when I played MVP baseball I always drafted the youngest players because they perceived to have the highest upside. It’s not a difficult concept. Take 5 shots with 5 players for $2.5M is a much better gamble than signing a Yolbert Sanchez for $2.5M because he’s a safer choice. Build a good development program and trust your coaching staffs to develop these kids. In the case scenario you could still trade them after they show little promise in DSL or rookie league before anyone finds out if these players are any good.

[YourWhatHurts]

6 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Back when I played MVP baseball I always drafted the youngest players because they perceived to have the highest upside. It’s not a difficult concept. Take 5 shots with 5 players for $2.5M is a much better gamble than signing a Yolbert Sanchez for $2.5M because he’s a safer choice. Build a good development program and trust your coaching staffs to develop these kids. In the case scenario you could still trade them after they show little promise in DSL or rookie league before anyone finds out if these players are any good.

It depends on who you sign though.  The Sox have been signing the wrong guys, and the one "right" guy they signed out of these lesser-known types, they didn't even give their selves a chance to professionally evaluate inside of a real baseball game context because they traded him beforehand.'

I don't have an issue with Yolbert.  If he turns into Jose Iglesias then that's a great outcome.  The Tigers gave up Avi Garcia as a very good prospect, plus a bit more IIRC, to get him, and Boston used him to get Peavy.  And for a career, he's been a quality player overall.  OTOH the Sox always have all these Mieses and Comas types who never turn out to be shit.

I think the bottom line is that the Sox need to do a better job all the way around.  They're great signing big name Cuban defectors, but other than that, they pretty much suck.  Just compare the Sox to the Cubs.  The Cubs are better there.  Many team are.  The Padres are just one of many teams better than Sox in Latin America.

And anyway, Yolbert is also a Cuban.  We wouldn't even have him if he wasn't a Cuban.  We'd just have another Mieses and another Comas in his place.

[Rey21]

12 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Back when I played MVP baseball I always drafted the youngest players because they perceived to have the highest upside. It’s not a difficult concept. Take 5 shots with 5 players for $2.5M is a much better gamble than signing a Yolbert Sanchez for $2.5M because he’s a safer choice. Build a good development program and trust your coaching staffs to develop these kids. In the case scenario you could still trade them after they show little promise in DSL or rookie league before anyone finds out if these players are any good.

Would like to think Hahn feels the same way but Jerry doesn’t believe in paying a bunch of 15 & 16 year old with potential to help you make more money..

[YourWhatHurts]

I'm not upset about missing out on Musgrove.  I don't want to give up much for that guy anyway, especially with so many FAs still on the board.  

As for the Padres, this is the kind of deal that could really hurt them if they miss on one of the guys they gave up.  They really didn't need to make this move but they did.  That said, they did get a nice IP insurance policy.  As others have noted, the much-ballyhooed Padres rotation will have a lot of injury questionmarks in it, and Musgrove helps add some extra innings insurance.

[SonofaRoache]

15 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Back when I played MVP baseball I always drafted the youngest players because they perceived to have the highest upside. It’s not a difficult concept. Take 5 shots with 5 players for $2.5M is a much better gamble than signing a Yolbert Sanchez for $2.5M because he’s a safer choice. Build a good development program and trust your coaching staffs to develop these kids. In the case scenario you could still trade them after they show little promise in DSL or rookie league before anyone finds out if these players are any good.

Let's be real. This concept works but many teams fail at it. Our problem was always signing mid tier bums past their primes and teading away prospects for washed up vets. We have a very good roster right now and probably will have the second best in the AL. I think we will get better with acquiring young talent, but let's not act like our roster isn't stacked. We are getting the top Cuban guys and will continue to do so. 

Lastly, MVP Baseball 2005 needs to come back. That was the most fun baseball game I've ever played. 

[Rey21]

4 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

It depends on who you sign though.  The Sox have been signing the wrong guys, and the one "right" guy they signed out of these lesser-known types, they didn't even give their selves a chance to professionally evaluate inside of a real baseball game context because they traded him beforehand.'

I don't have an issue with Yolbert.  If he turns into Jose Iglesias then that's a great outcome.  The Tigers gave up Avi Garcia as a very good prospect, plus a bit more IIRC, to get him, and Boston used him to get Peavy.  And for a career, he's been a quality player overall.  OTOH the Sox always have all these Mieses and Comas types who never turn out to be shit.

I think the bottom line is that the Sox need to do a better job all the way around.  They're great signing big name Cuban defectors, but other than that, they pretty much suck.  Just compare the Sox to the Cubs.  The Cubs are better there.  Many team are.  The Padres are just one of many teams better than Sox in Latin America.

And anyway, Yolbert is also a Cuban.  We wouldn't even have him if he wasn't a Cuban.  We'd just have another Mieses and another Comas in his place.

Really wonder why they aren’t as involved in the DR

[Flash]

Not sure what's going on in SD. They are a relatively small market team. With Musgrove, their payroll creeps into the $175Mish range. They are wheeling and dealing as if they know something no one else knows. Maybe they are counting on an increase in team value comensurate with increased W/L success or maybe they feel the pandemic is fading and gate receipts will rebound in 2021. Preller/Padres are zigging when everyone else seems to be zagging and that might pay off nicely or ????

[35thstreetswarm]

Who would’ve thought an NL west team trading for a boring player I didn’t want would make me reevaluate my entire outlook on the White Sox organization, but here we are.  Turns out we’re bad now

[Chicago White Sox]

40 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

It depends on who you sign though.  The Sox have been signing the wrong guys, and the one "right" guy they signed out of these lesser-known types, they didn't even give their selves a chance to professionally evaluate inside of a real baseball game context because they traded him beforehand.'

I don't have an issue with Yolbert.  If he turns into Jose Iglesias then that's a great outcome.  The Tigers gave up Avi Garcia as a very good prospect, plus a bit more IIRC, to get him, and Boston used him to get Peavy.  And for a career, he's been a quality player overall.  OTOH the Sox always have all these Mieses and Comas types who never turn out to be shit.

I think the bottom line is that the Sox need to do a better job all the way around.  They're great signing big name Cuban defectors, but other than that, they pretty much suck.  Just compare the Sox to the Cubs.  The Cubs are better there.  Many team are.  The Padres are just one of many teams better than Sox in Latin America.

And anyway, Yolbert is also a Cuban.  We wouldn't even have him if he wasn't a Cuban.  We'd just have another Mieses and another Comas in his place.

Fernando Tatis Jr signed for like $800k.  I get the hit rate on these kids is low, especially for us, but I’d rather have three lottery tickets then sign a guy like Sanchez who is both older and with a limited ceiling.  At some point you’re bound to get lucky and hit with one of these teenage signings if you keep investing in that area.

[thxfrthmmrs]

27 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Let's be real. This concept works but many teams fail at it. Our problem was always signing mid tier bums past their primes and teading away prospects for washed up vets. We have a very good roster right now and probably will have the second best in the AL. I think we will get better with acquiring young talent, but let's not act like our roster isn't stacked. We are getting the top Cuban guys and will continue to do so. 

Lastly, MVP Baseball 2005 needs to come back. That was the most fun baseball game I've ever played. 

Sox has a strong roster in spite of some terrible decisions in LatAM spending. They could have so much more assets to trade from but wasted their bonus pool on guys like Yolbert or throwing the money away like it’s nothing. When they did spend on the 16 year olds previously, they had not gotten anything to show for (Franklin Reyes, Amando, Nunez, Felix Mercedes, etc). I applaud them for trying but it was at a time they have one of the worst developmental programs in all of majors.

Sox and Padres had been on a similar trajectory for a few years now, this offseason has really shown the true difference between how these teams are built. Despite trading for 3 highly valuable SPs, they still maintain one of the top farms in MLB with strong depth.