Jameson Taillon traded to Yankees

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, Rey21 said:

And high school kids which the Sox don’t do, they’re always behind the trend never in front of it which is embarrassing for a big market team 

We’re taken quite a few of HS kids the last few drafts, it’s the LatAm kids that’s the problem.

[iWiN4PreP]

Pretty good Trade for the Yankees. They've done a decent job of rebuilding a depleted SP staff. Still, it's not a very good one and it is a very risky one. 

[Dominikk85]

43 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Nothing special in that package from what I can tell, would have seen if they would taken some pieces like Adolfo and Sheets instead.

I think the pirates this time want to go full tank. The last round they went for more mlb ready pieces like musgrove and moran to do kind of a quick retooling but it didn't work and now they go for younger, higher variance, higher upside guys because they Don't have a core to build around anymore and they can't afford to sign stars.

Sheets and adolfo could contribute soon but they are older and don't have the upside the pirates really need now. Pirates are going through a long rebuild.

 

[poppysox]

46 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Nothing special in that package from what I can tell, would have seen if they would taken some pieces like Adolfo and Sheets instead.

Taillon looks a far cry from a sure thing with 2 TJ surgeries and 3 years since doing anything.  The 4 guys going to Pitt look like nothing as well since none are coming from Tohanp 10 Yankees farmhands.  If I was a betting man I don't think this deal helps anyone.

[Vulture]

52 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

This is reas. They gave up their 15th ranked. 19th ranked, 23 rd ranked and unranked for a guy with a lot of questions,  but a ton up upside.  

Ranked by whom?

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

I think the pirates this time want to go full tank. The last round they went for more mlb ready pieces like musgrove and moran to do kind of a quick retooling but it didn't work and now they go for younger, higher variance, higher upside guys because they Don't have a core to build around anymore and they can't afford to sign stars.

Sheets and adolfo could contribute soon but they are older and don't have the upside the pirates really need now. Pirates are going through a long rebuild.

 

100% agree with that logic, although I will say a guy like Adolfo could be really interesting for a club that has no ambitions to compete in 2022 and should have plenty of playing time available. When we did our rebuild one area we failed on was giving high ceiling, low floor guys like Micker a chance.  Pirates would be smart to find some potential diamonds in the rough and make good use of that playing time.

[Dick Allen]

Just now, poppysox said:

Taillon looks a far cry from a sure thing with 2 TJ surgeries and 3 years since doing anything.  The 4 guys going to Pitt look like nothing as well since none are coming from Tohanp 10 Yankees farmhands.  If I was a betting man I don't think this deal helps anyone.

Maybe not but I was reading up on Taillon a week or so ago, and he is about ready to go. He has new mechanics and has shortened his motion a la Giolito.  Not to the extent of Lucas, but shortened it notheless. He does have #3 or #2 upside and is only making around $3 million with at least one more year of control. I would have liked to see the Sox send a few of their lesser prospects. This guy is probably a good bet to give you the same amount of innings as Garrett Richards in 2021, and if all went well could slide into Lynn's spot in 2022, all for not much cash.  It's really no big deal to me, but I think there may have been an opportunity there.

[YourWhatHurts]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

100% agree with that logic, although I will say a guy like Adolfo could be really interesting for a club that has no ambitions to compete in 2022 and should have plenty of playing time available. When we did our rebuild one area we failed on was giving high ceiling, low floor guys like Micker a chance.  Pirates would be smart to find some potential diamonds in the rough and make good use of that playing time.

They will need someone to throw out there just because.

I think Adolfo goes for a RP in a 1-for-1 deal at some point, or a 1-for-2 where the second guy we give up is an inconsequential minor leaguer who doesn't take up roster space.

[thxfrthmmrs]

I am shocked that our early round college picks - Sheets, Walker, LuGon, Burdi, etc, don’t have much value in the trade market. Not.

[Chicago White Sox]

37 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

I am shocked that our early round college picks - Sheets, Walker, LuGon, Burdi, etc, don’t have much value in the trade market. Not.

It’s amazing how good the rebuild has worked out at the moment given how bad our drafting was at the beginning of this thing.

[Dick Allen]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It’s amazing how good the rebuild has worked out at the moment given how bad our drafting was at the beginning of this thing.

Signing Robert. Trading Q, Sale and Eaton. If not for the trade capital they had, this team would be horrible for a long time. Not many teams had what they had to trade when going into a rebuild.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Signing Robert. Trading Q, Sale and Eaton. If not for the trade capital they had, this team would be horrible for a long time. Not many teams had what they had to trade when going into a rebuild.

Yup, and it’s scary to think how good we’d be looking had we just hit on some of those picks.

[steveno89]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Nothing special in that package from what I can tell, would have seen if they would taken some pieces like Adolfo and Sheets instead.

Escotto is a legit young prospect. We don’t really have a comparable guy in our system

[maxjusttyped]

14 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Escotto is a legit young prospect. We don’t really have a comparable guy in our system

The same can be said about Cannan Smith & Yajure. These are all players we'd be excited about if they were in the Sox system.

[Chicago White Sox]

26 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Escotto is a legit young prospect. We don’t really have a comparable guy in our system

Benjamin Bailey isn’t comparable?

[Dominikk85]

3 hours ago, Rey21 said:

And high school kids which the Sox don’t do, they’re always behind the trend never in front of it which is embarrassing for a big market team 

Actually the trend is college rather than HS. In 1999 15 HS kids were drafted in the top 30 and 15 college kids. 2019 it was 10 HS and 20 college.

 

Even more extreme is this in the first half of the first. 2019 5 out of the top15 were HS kids, 1999 10 of the top15 were HS kids.

 

This of course fluctuates a little year to year but overall the trend is clearly going college in the top half of the first round and then going HS in the comp and second round.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Dominikk85

[maxjusttyped]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Benjamin Bailey isn’t comparable?

Fangraphs has a 40+FV value grade on Bailey which is below Yajure (45), and equal to Canaan Smith, Contreras, & Escotto. The Yankees ~10 or so players in this tier, whereas Bailey & Jose Rodriguez are the only types of prospects the Sox have in that mold.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

Fangraphs has a 40+FV value grade on Bailey which is below Yajure (45), and equal to Canaan Smith, Contreras, & Escotto. The Yankees ~10 or so players in this tier, whereas Bailey & Jose Rodriguez are the only types of prospects the Sox have in that mold.

No doubt we have less of these players than other organizations and maybe we shouldn’t be moving them at this time, I just disagree that we could not have made a comparable offer.

[YourWhatHurts]

2 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

I am shocked that our early round college picks - Sheets, Walker, LuGon, Burdi, etc, don’t have much value in the trade market. Not.

But OTOH Rutherford doesn't have a lot of value either, and he was a late first round draft pick out of HS and so was Ian Clarkin and both of those guys came from the Yankees in the DRob/Kahnle dump off.

It's hard to get value in the draft regardless.  The best policy is to spend as much money as possible on the highest-end guys available.  In the Sox defense, they have been doing a much better job targeting higher-level players in the early rounds in the draft lately.

Re: the group mentioned though, Burdi has made some progress now that he is healthy.  He could still turn into a quality pen piece.  Walker got us potentially 2 years of Mazara and in hindsight we should have traded him for someone else.  Gonzalez seems to be on track to being a decent if not quality 4th OF IMO, which is a pretty good outcome anyway.  Only Sheets really looks like a guy with a pretty low likelihood of having any MLB success, but he also has made some improvement and he may have enough value to net the team a quality MR or bench piece at the deadline.  All in all, I think that group mentioned isn't really that damning.  Sure they could have done better in hindsight but let's just go look draft to draft at all of the high schoolers who are taken in the first 3 or 4 rounds who totally bust. 

Also coming to mind are Spencer Adams and David Holmberg who were HS guys who didn't work out.  I also remember getting excited about drafting a HS named Stephen Upchurch and I think he fell apart before he even got off of the bus to Great Falls.  More often that not these guys don't work out.

I do hope that whether it is a HS or college player, the Sox try to do what they did grabbing Crochet and Kelly back-to-back all the time in every draft.  

[bmags]

34 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

But OTOH Rutherford doesn't have a lot of value either, and he was a late first round draft pick out of HS and so was Ian Clarkin and both of those guys came from the Yankees in the DRob/Kahnle dump off.

It's hard to get value in the draft regardless.  The best policy is to spend as much money as possible on the highest-end guys available.  In the Sox defense, they have been doing a much better job targeting higher-level players in the early rounds in the draft lately.

Re: the group mentioned though, Burdi has made some progress now that he is healthy.  He could still turn into a quality pen piece.  Walker got us potentially 2 years of Mazara and in hindsight we should have traded him for someone else.  Gonzalez seems to be on track to being a decent if not quality 4th OF IMO, which is a pretty good outcome anyway.  Only Sheets really looks like a guy with a pretty low likelihood of having any MLB success, but he also has made some improvement and he may have enough value to net the team a quality MR or bench piece at the deadline.  All in all, I think that group mentioned isn't really that damning.  Sure they could have done better in hindsight but let's just go look draft to draft at all of the high schoolers who are taken in the first 3 or 4 rounds who totally bust. 

Also coming to mind are Spencer Adams and David Holmberg who were HS guys who didn't work out.  I also remember getting excited about drafting a HS named Stephen Upchurch and I think he fell apart before he even got off of the bus to Great Falls.  More often that not these guys don't work out.

I do hope that whether it is a HS or college player, the Sox try to do what they did grabbing Crochet and Kelly back-to-back all the time in every draft.  

Except Rutherford and Clarkin netted the yankees a top set-up reliever, closer and third baseman.

[GreenSox]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It’s amazing how good the rebuild has worked out at the moment given how bad our drafting was at the beginning of this thing.

That's because we had Sale, Eaton and Quintana  to trade, the latter 2 of whom we (fortunately) traded at the peak of their value.  I think it's amazing how thin the Sox are considering all of the trade capital; heck they had to trade a pitcher in the rotation to get a 1 year upgrade and they apparently can't come up with the 2nd tier prospects to get one of these mid-rotation starters.

Edited January 24, 2021 by GreenSox

[southsider2k5]

Gutsy to trade things for a guy after 2 TJS's

[Jose Abreu]

32 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

That's because we had Sale, Eaton and Quintana  to trade, the latter 2 of whom we (fortunately) traded at the peak of their value.  I think it's amazing how thin the Sox are considering all of the trade capital; heck they had to trade a pitcher in the rotation to get a 1 year upgrade and they apparently can't come up with the 2nd tier prospects to get one of these mid-rotation starters.

I think part of that speaks to their trade philosophy though. They easily could've traded the big three for packages that would stack the farm with depth, but they went for upside and hit on most of those players

[YourWhatHurts]

50 minutes ago, bmags said:

Except Rutherford and Clarkin netted the yankees a top set-up reliever, closer and third baseman.

I'm not sure why that matters in this case given we only care about these things from the Sox perspective.  

Depending on the year, the Sox will always be either buying or selling.  HS draftees will always be riskier, and here is another case where at least so far (because the book isn't closed on Rutherford yet) the Sox have tried to extract the kind of value out of a pair of HS draftees that would serve their organization well, and they were unable to.

I'm not sure why there is an argument that says a high school guy is better than a college guy as an earlier round pick.  The Sox have had better luck with college guys anyway, whether it is extracting value in a trade or someone producing at the MLB level. 

In another of my previous examples, the Sox were able to trade Holmberg as the 2nd piece for Jackson.  Was that a good pick then?  The main guy in that deal was a college guy also.  For Holmberg's shorter-than-Madrigal ceiling, as a 2nd round pick, I think that pick sucks a fat pair of balls.

If there's one major bone to pick with the Sox philosophy over the years, outside of their bullshit pre-slotting system, it's probably their performance in the 2nd through the 5th rounds.  Every year going into the draft there are a host of publications that put out top-100 lists like Perfect Game, BA, BP, 20/80 baseball, Law's lists, etc., and there are probably about 130-150 players who will be on every major publications top-100 list, and probably about 50 guys or so that appear on everybody's top-30 or so.  It always seems like the Sox are one of those teams that sit there and pick 100-200+ list guys early while other teams are taking players ranked highly well into the draft.  There are always these other teams that get like 3 -5 of these consensus top-100 guys while the Sox take 1 or maybe 2.  

I said during the draft that Kelly was the most exciting 2nd rounder I can remember since Ryan Sweeney.  Usually the Sox pick RPs pretty high and other guys like Pilkington who are way too high.  They look for value picks too early. 

Hansen was an interesting pick at the time, and I think Luis Gonzalez was an interesting high floor guy as a 3rd round pick but probably too early.  Other than Sheets, their 2nd rounders over recent years have been pretty good picks at the time, like Erik Johnson and Tyler Danish, who didn't turn out, but not all of these guys need to be taken in the 2nd, and even when you get someone who looks decent in the 2nd it doesn't mean you need to punt the football in the 3rd round. 

Beck was a good 3rd round pick.  But usually you look at rounds 3-5 and that's where the Sox resort to picking "value" or "find" guys while some other teams are picking "names" and this is something Sox fans who have been following the drafts for years have constantly noticed.  They have taken guys like Donny Lucy in the 2nd round, John Ely in the 3rd, etc. and have gone with bench/RP/longshot types way too early in the draft.  Other teams are taking greater upside and especially players who are seen as better in the general public.

[YourWhatHurts]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Benjamin Bailey isn’t comparable?

I don't know who that Yankees guy is but I do know that I am absolutely not on board with giving up on Benny Bailey before he even picks up a bat on US soil just to "reel in" an old shoe wrapped in weeds and general garbage named Jameson Tallion.