I'm coming around to the Sox starting with the team it has now

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, scs787 said:

How many teams really have good depth beyond there starting 5? The front 4 is a lock, and I don't see why Kopech shouldn't be the 5th starter very early on. I haven't looked at the schedule but typically the 5th spot in the rotation can be "Skipped" early on if they wanna hold Kopech down in the minors to get the extra year of service time....adding a high end SP this year never made sense to me. 

We don't know the plans they have for Vaughn so DH might not make that much sense either. 

 

Flowers still out there? He to me makes the most sense for backup catcher. 

 

There's always the trade deadline if a starter goes down for the year and guys like Lopez, Steiver(Who I thought this board liked) and Lambert dont step up and there's no plan for Crochet as a starter this year. 

How many competitive teams are relying on guys coming off FIPs in the 6 to 7 range as their #4 & #5 starters to open the season?  And it’s shocking that some people keep ignoring the fact Kopech will be on a strict innings limit and won’t have pitched in a competitive game in like 950 days when the season actually starts.  That’s a tremendous about of uncertainty at the back of the rotation and all it takes is one major injury to the big three to potentially derail the whole thing.   Banking on Katz being our savior instead of adding an arm like Quintana for $8M is simply unacceptable.

[scs787]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

How many competitive teams are relying on guys coming off FIPs in the 6 to 7 range as their #4 & #5 starters to open the season?  And it’s shocking that some people keep ignoring the fact Kopech will be on a strict innings limit and won’t have pitched in a competitive game in like 950 days when the season actually starts.  That’s a tremendous about of uncertainty at the back of the rotation and all it takes is one major injury to the big three to potentially derail the whole thing.   Banking on Katz being our savior instead of adding an arm like Quintana for $8M is simply unacceptable.

The Kopech thing is a little befuddling to me, I get it. I just think he's a big player in this rebuild and he should be in the rotation this year and going forward. Adding a starter of any magnitude phases him out barring an injury. I suppose you could have shifted a guy like Q to the pen if need be, but I absolutely think you should look to have him in the rotation. I'm hoping we see Crochet used as a starter as well down the stretch when you shut Kopech down. 

 

I definitely understand the argument for adding a starter, but I also understand "Trusting the process" of the rebuild and having your former top pitching prospect in the league being a part of that rotation. 

[Ducksnort]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

When the season starts, I will get mad about the roster.  It's not even February, a large amount of free agents are sitting out there jobless, and we gotta go through the daily rollercoaster of

OMG THE CUBS SIGNED JOC WHY DIDNT THE SOX OFFER MORE MONEY

oh wait they did

OH MY GOD THEY OFFERED MORE MONEY BUT WHY NOT MORE THAN EVEN THAT I CANT STAND THEM THEY ARE SO CHEAP JERRY KILLED MY PET CAT TOO

lmao

[Ducksnort]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

I feel like I’m walking the line with both sides right now. 
 

The Sox have a very solid roster right now. They should 100% be considered the favorite in the division as it currently stands. And it’s a foundation that should continue to get better. 
 

On the other hand, as others have mentioned (or beaten to death in many threads) this team still has a few rather large concerns that can be alleviated with money. Don’t need trades, don’t need to get super creative, just need to spend some more money to really give this team some much needed depth and truly make them a World Series favorite. 
 

The offseason also isn’t over. If this is it, if the ML roster is pretty much set on January 29th...I think fans have a right to be excited about the season but frustrated at the lack of aggression shown by a FO right on the cusp of greatness.

This is pretty much where I am at. Offseason isn't over. Also, a lot of teams make moves in the middle of the season to upgrade their roster too. The additions don't stop once the season starts.

Obviously, depth is an issue. Also obviously, the front office realizes this. I am confident they will address it. Not to the demand of fans on message boards that it happens immediately, but it will happen.

I for one am excited about our coaching. I think TLR is going to push these guys to unleash their potential, and I think he's going to force them to play SMART baseball, and when they don't, he'll know how to handle it.

I think we are going to see some amazing things from our pitchers this year with Katz, who from listening to and reading about, has lots of tricks up his sleeves. I am very excited about that. Can you imagine if Lopez and Cease were fixed, and Kopech comes out pitching like a stud? Like if all 3 were fantastic...and we have real evidence of that with Katz and Giolito... that's something to be excited about.

[CentralChamps21]

Regardless of how good the team is now, management should continue to improve the team so long as it has resources, and the Sox have some combination of dollars and trade assets that could easily improve this team. To not get at least one of a DH or SP is unacceptable, and they really ought to be getting both.

[Chicago White Sox]

28 minutes ago, scs787 said:

The Kopech thing is a little befuddling to me, I get it. I just think he's a big player in this rebuild and he should be in the rotation this year and going forward. Adding a starter of any magnitude phases him out barring an injury. I suppose you could have shifted a guy like Q to the pen if need be, but I absolutely think you should look to have him in the rotation. I'm hoping we see Crochet used as a starter as well down the stretch when you shut Kopech down. 

 

I definitely understand the argument for adding a starter, but I also understand "Trusting the process" of the rebuild and having your former top pitching prospect in the league being a part of that rotation. 

IMO, truly competitive teams should try to avoid developing multiple young starters at the same in the major league rotation.  Cease is coming off a horrific season and is a total wild card.  I tend to believe he will take a step forward under Katz, but that‘s far from a guarantee.  He should be our #5 to enter the season and given every chance to secure a long-term spot.  To me, that means Kopech starts in AAA and has to force his way into a rotation spot or come up in the event of injury.  He simply can’t be counted on as a full season starter and that means adding another arm, preferably one who can slot in ahead of Cease to start the season.  I also think you must plan for injuries and right now we simply lack the depth to survive what should be an ugly season for starting pitchers.  That’s my single biggest issue right now with this offseason.

[Rey21]

The Sox as currently constructed are not good enough to win a World Series. As fans we can’t become content with just accepting they won’t spend any further, we were told otherwise, they are $80 mil under the luxury tax with holes to fill that can be solved in FA. 

[Chicago White Sox]

28 minutes ago, Rey21 said:

The Sox as currently constructed are not good enough to win a World Series. As fans we can’t become content with just accepting they won’t spend any further, we were told otherwise, they are $80 mil under the luxury tax with holes to fill that can be solved in FA. 

This is absurd.  They definitely have a roster capable of winning a World Series on paper, but they got to make the playoffs first and our lack of depth could really hurt us if we get hit with too many injuries or too much underperformance out of a few key spots.

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, scs787 said:

How many teams really have good depth beyond there starting 5? The front 4 is a lock, and I don't see why Kopech shouldn't be the 5th starter very early on. I haven't looked at the schedule but typically the 5th spot in the rotation can be "Skipped" early on if they wanna hold Kopech down in the minors to get the extra year of service time....adding a high end SP this year never made sense to me. 

We don't know the plans they have for Vaughn so DH might not make that much sense either. 

 

Flowers still out there? He to me makes the most sense for backup catcher. 

 

There's always the trade deadline if a starter goes down for the year and guys like Lopez, Steiver(Who I thought this board liked) and Lambert dont step up and there's no plan for Crochet as a starter this year. 

Sensible post.   No teams have starting pitching depth beyond their top five.  It is just the chorus of negative voices that permeate every thread on Sox Talk.   Gio, Lynn and Dallas were all in the CY Young voting last year and Cease and Kopech have TOR stuff.  Which of those five are we sitting to bring in some old gas can?   And the idea that "well what happens if someone gets hurt then we have to start Stiever"...brought to you by the same people that are putting Dunning our 5th best prospect in the Hall of Fame while Stiever our 6th best is garbage?   To start the season there are six off days in the first six weeks...and likely several rain outs or snow outs.   If we have to give Lopez two or three starts...or try a couple of bullpen days (I suspect Katz/TLR are more open to this concept than Renteria/Cooper) that is hardly a disaster.  You know who else relied on a couple of 23 year old starting pitchers...the Dodgers last year.

The reality is we are not "all in".  Last years excitement and positive developments with the young guys has moved us from playoff consideration into championship consideration.  But we are still reliant on LOTS of very young guys...I don't think any one of us think 2021 is going to be the teams peak.  The Padres sort of had to push all their chips in because they are spending $75 million each year for Machado, Myers and Hosmer and Machado is turning 29 this year while the other two are in their 30's.   We right now have one of the most exciting lineups, defenses, starting pitching and bullpens around...it looks like most of the players should be getter better (approaching their prime as opposed to leaving it) and we have kept our budget sound...I don't think we have a single bad contract.  Why do we need to trade assets now?  Why do we need to pick things off the heap now.  I am FINE with letting Robert, Jiminez, Madrigal, Vaughn, Moncada, TA and Collins grow together.  I'm fine with letting all our exciting minor league pitchers get some non-COVID pitching time.  I am fine with waiting until the all star break to see what weaknesses we have, what strengths we have in the minors and then trade or buy some other teams burdensome contract (Yelich in RF?) or extend Lynn and Gio.  We have added four really good parts to a team that was very good last year.  This is spring and we should be rejoicing not complaining about not getting some Pittsburgh pitcher that was never any good, or giving a bunch of starts to someone like Quintana, or spending money on some 30+ year old back up catcher.   Pitchers and catchers can't get here soon enough.   

[VAfan]

The point of my post was the last line -- I think we have some talented young players, who the Sox will be better off giving playing time than some dubious veteran who blocks their development.

Vaughn is the first of those young studs. We only need a DH long enough to cover the service time issue, which is only about a month.

Kopech is the next young stud we should not block. I understand the need for pitching depth, but Kopech should be able to start about 20 games if handled correctly, which would coincide with delaying his call-up while they gain an extra year of control. So many of the pitchers people want to sign -- what would you do with them when Kopech is ready?  We need someone for 10 or so starts to begin the season. The veterans people list can't just go into the bullpen, and they certainly can't go into the minors. And you also can't cut them.  

For true pitching depth, we need pitchers who can shuttle up and down between AAA and the majors. You might be able to hide one starter in the bullpen, but you can't hide more than that. 

Collins is the 3rd player we should not block. He will have some growing pains, but we need to get past them to develop him into a solid backup catcher and part-time lefty DH.  He can also play first in a pinch. 

As the team is constructed now, there are no barriers to the Sox using all 3 of those players this year to their full extent. I would have been excited by someone like Corey Kluber, because if he was on his 2014-18 form, he might have been our best starter.  But so many of the $8-10M guys do not seem to add much for me, other than insurance against injury.  That's a real thing, but could potentially be covered in other ways.  For example, by using guys like Lambert and Stiever, thus adding to their value and development. 

So my premise is the Sox could be better off if they don't block development of their young players with short term vets who cost more but don't really improve the team. 

Lopez might continue to pitch poorly, but if you only need 10 starts from him as a bridge to Kopech, you can survive. His cost is minimal, saving money for where it is needed, like extending Giolito.  

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, VAfan said:

The point of my post was the last line -- I think we have some talented young players, who the Sox will be better off giving playing time than some dubious veteran who blocks their development.

Vaughn is the first of those young studs. We only need a DH long enough to cover the service time issue, which is only about a month.

Kopech is the next young stud we should not block. I understand the need for pitching depth, but Kopech should be able to start about 20 games if handled correctly, which would coincide with delaying his call-up while they gain an extra year of control. So many of the pitchers people want to sign -- what would you do with them when Kopech is ready?  We need someone for 10 or so starts to begin the season. The veterans people list can't just go into the bullpen, and they certainly can't go into the minors. And you also can't cut them.  

For true pitching depth, we need pitchers who can shuttle up and down between AAA and the majors. You might be able to hide one starter in the bullpen, but you can't hide more than that. 

Collins is the 3rd player we should not block. He will have some growing pains, but we need to get past them to develop him into a solid backup catcher and part-time lefty DH.  He can also play first in a pinch. 

As the team is constructed now, there are no barriers to the Sox using all 3 of those players this year to their full extent. I would have been excited by someone like Corey Kluber, because if he was on his 2014-18 form, he might have been our best starter.  But so many of the $8-10M guys do not seem to add much for me, other than insurance against injury.  That's a real thing, but could potentially be covered in other ways.  For example, by using guys like Lambert and Stiever, thus adding to their value and development. 

So my premise is the Sox could be better off if they don't block development of their young players with short term vets who cost more but don't really improve the team. 

Lopez might continue to pitch poorly, but if you only need 10 starts from him as a bridge to Kopech, you can survive. His cost is minimal, saving money for where it is needed, like extending Giolito.  

You are assuming injuries don’t happen and that’s the problem.  It’s only 10 starts from Lopez if everyone else is healthy & productive.

[michelangelosmonkey]

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How many competitive teams are relying on guys coming off FIPs in the 6 to 7 range as their #4 & #5 starters to open the season?  And it’s shocking that some people keep ignoring the fact Kopech will be on a strict innings limit and won’t have pitched in a competitive game in like 950 days when the season actually starts.  That’s a tremendous about of uncertainty at the back of the rotation and all it takes is one major injury to the big three to potentially derail the whole thing.   Banking on Katz being our savior instead of adding an arm like Quintana for $8M is simply unacceptable.

Last year on Sept 19th Cease was 24 was 5-2 with a 3.20 ERA .   Yes FIP says he was was worse...ERA says what actually happened FIP says what should have happened.  At the end of the year Cease had the equivalent of 2.7 WAR (again his fwar was much worse but thats because they use FIP).   But I gotta say every contending team in baseball would be happy to use Cease as their #4 starter after their three CY Young contenders pitch.  As for Kopech...everyone says he looks great.  He has overpowering stuff.   And if he has 27 starts where he goes 3 innings and Crochet follows him up with 3 innings...each of them get 81 innings for the year which still saves some innings for post season...and again...our fifth starter...3 innings at 100 from the right, 3 inning at 100 from the left...and then Bummer to make them cry.  Why do you want ANYONE instead of that.     

[Rey21]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This is absurd.  They definitely have a roster capable of winning a World Series on paper, but they got to make the playoffs first and our lack of depth could really hurt us if we get hit with too many injuries or too much underperformance out of a few key spots.

Exactly why you sign Ozuna to help lift the offense if it goes cold like it did many times last year especially down the stretch, it was a very streaky lineup, mashed against bottom feeders but struggled against better pitching. If you decide to keep Vaughn then there’s more insurance for Abreu if he slumps or package Vaughn for another SP preferably a Castillo/Woodruff type. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting more impact players for a team that has so much money left to play with but are choosing not to 

[Baron]

38 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Last year on Sept 19th Cease was 24 was 5-2 with a 3.20 ERA .   Yes FIP says he was was worse...ERA says what actually happened FIP says what should have happened.  At the end of the year Cease had the equivalent of 2.7 WAR (again his fwar was much worse but thats because they use FIP).   But I gotta say every contending team in baseball would be happy to use Cease as their #4 starter after their three CY Young contenders pitch.  As for Kopech...everyone says he looks great.  He has overpowering stuff.   And if he has 27 starts where he goes 3 innings and Crochet follows him up with 3 innings...each of them get 81 innings for the year which still saves some innings for post season...and again...our fifth starter...3 innings at 100 from the right, 3 inning at 100 from the left...and then Bummer to make them cry.  Why do you want ANYONE instead of that.     

You know your two stronger points you refuted with the actual facts about Cease. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

46 minutes ago, Baron said:

You know your two stronger points you refuted with the actual facts about Cease. 

I'm not sure I understand....what are the "actual facts" about Cease...Cease is 25 (now) with really good stuff...in the actual games last year he gave up 4 runs a game (ERA) which will win him a lot of games with this team.  

[RagahRagah]

4 hours ago, scs787 said:

The Kopech thing is a little befuddling to me, I get it. I just think he's a big player in this rebuild and he should be in the rotation this year and going forward. Adding a starter of any magnitude phases him out barring an injury. I suppose you could have shifted a guy like Q to the pen if need be, but I absolutely think you should look to have him in the rotation. I'm hoping we see Crochet used as a starter as well down the stretch when you shut Kopech down. 

 

I definitely understand the argument for adding a starter, but I also understand "Trusting the process" of the rebuild and having your former top pitching prospect in the league being a part of that rotation. 

Why on earth would you trust a process which is clearly disingenuous and poor?

[Eminor3rd]

5 hours ago, scs787 said:

How many teams really have good depth beyond there starting 5?

All of the contenders

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Last year on Sept 19th Cease was 24 was 5-2 with a 3.20 ERA .   Yes FIP says he was was worse...ERA says what actually happened FIP says what should have happened.  At the end of the year Cease had the equivalent of 2.7 WAR (again his fwar was much worse but thats because they use FIP).   But I gotta say every contending team in baseball would be happy to use Cease as their #4 starter after their three CY Young contenders pitch.  As for Kopech...everyone says he looks great.  He has overpowering stuff.   And if he has 27 starts where he goes 3 innings and Crochet follows him up with 3 innings...each of them get 81 innings for the year which still saves some innings for post season...and again...our fifth starter...3 innings at 100 from the right, 3 inning at 100 from the left...and then Bummer to make them cry.  Why do you want ANYONE instead of that.     

If you’re using ERA to somehow justify that Cease was good last year then you must not have watched him pitch at all.  He was horrendous last year being both unable to command his pitches and generate any strikeouts.  I’m a huge Cease fan and am hopeful that he take a big leap forward this year, but that doesn’t change the realities of how ugly his 2020 season was.

[Texsox]

How many teams have holes and question marks? 

27 give or take two. 

[maloney.adam]

I didn’t know where to put this but wow someone needs to step off the ledge. Lol

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, maloney.adam said:

I didn’t know where to put this but wow someone needs to step off the ledge. Lol

This must be an Indians’ fan on the wrong message board...

[michelangelosmonkey]

59 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

If you’re using ERA to somehow justify that Cease was good last year then you must not have watched him pitch at all.  He was horrendous last year being both unable to command his pitches and generate any strikeouts.  I’m a huge Cease fan and am hopeful that he take a big leap forward this year, but that doesn’t change the realities of how ugly his 2020 season was.

No...I'm using ERA to suggest he's not as horrible as you say he is.  Walking the bases loaded but getting out of it is either a skill or luck...but its not like Cease was throwing 92 and kept getting lucky.  Some guys are brilliant for four innings then they walk a guy and have an error and then give up a three run homer.  FIP loves those guys and hates the first.  Discarding ERA is as bad as discarding FIP.  Cease was frustrating last year but until late September teams weren't scoring off of him. That seems more of a data point than throwing out terms like horendous and ugly.   

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, michelangelosmonkey said:

No...I'm using ERA to suggest he's not as horrible as you say he is.  Walking the bases loaded but getting out of it is either a skill or luck...but its not like Cease was throwing 92 and kept getting lucky.  Some guys are brilliant for four innings then they walk a guy and have an error and then give up a three run homer.  FIP loves those guys and hates the first.  Discarding ERA is as bad as discarding FIP.  Cease was frustrating last year but until late September teams weren't scoring off of him. That seems more of a data point than throwing out terms like horendous and ugly.   

He was 100% lucky and if you actually watched his starts or look at any of his stats other than ERA you would know this.  He was horrendous last year and his luck would have almost certainly run out over a full 32 start season.

[michelangelosmonkey]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

He was 100% lucky and if you actually watched his starts or look at any of his stats other than ERA you would know this.  He was horrendous last year and his luck would have almost certainly run out over a full 32 start season.

Ah the science of lucky.  If you actually watched his starts he has electric stuff but control issues.  It takes many dynamic pitchers years to get control...most teams dont give up on them and give the starts instead to some old declining gas can 

[Chicago White Sox]

12 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Ah the science of lucky.  If you actually watched his starts he has electric stuff but control issues.  It takes many dynamic pitchers years to get control...most teams dont give up on them and give the starts instead to some old declining gas can 

So now you’re just moving the goalposts?  I want him in the rotation because I believe in the talent and hope that Katz find a way to unleash it, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t bad last year.  And it wasn’t just his command (which was horrible), he also has a very low active spin rate which makes it harder for his 4 seamer to miss bats.  Hopefully he finds a way to fix his mechanics to improve command and reduce the cut on his fastball, but until he’s a complete wild card coming off a really bad year.